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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Getting damn cold fast. NB, Canada is a long way away from Georgia...in soooo many ways. Not all of them bad.
I'm sad to say I've never traveled to New Brunswick (my wife has once). All my other trips to Canada, however, have been quite enjoyable. I've been to Ontario and Alberta - but not NB nor BC. Sometime, I need to consult RGA about Vancouver.
Last month I hiked Glacier Park in Montana and crossed the border and visited Waterton Park. Climbed Bear's Hump. Gorgeous.
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/waterton.jpg
rw
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E-stat, your last post omitted a smaller matter called efficiency, The audio research NEEDS a larger capacitive storage because of much larger losses both in the PSU and amplification stages. The two approaches are an antithesis of each other, one uses brute force and other is much more nimble (efficient).
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Still in a "haze" about this
"...The most powerful passages should ultimately be rendered with absolute control and grace..."
I hear the word "control" a lot in reviews, but I'm not sure I'm getting it. I'm not sitting in front of my speakers right now, so I can't verify what I'm describing, but I don't think either the HCA-2 or the NAD have trouble with control. The HCA-2 has noticeably deeper, more powerfull bass, but coming up the scale, both amps seem to be able to do quite well above ~100Hz. or so. Even with sudden FF passages.
"...can help achieve a "blacker" background."
Colors have always confused me. I realize that to express music in words is difficult, but what do you mean by "blacker" ?
"There is missing detail to be found in most systems, not from the top, but from the bottom of the dynamic scale. Which when salvaged, increases the overall range."
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest a correction. If there is missing material as a result of the system, it should be missing all across the scale. Aren't we simply saying that our ears are not as capable of discerning the missing material in the upper frequencies - but that it is still missing? True, some equipment will be able to play lower bass, but I don't think that is what we are referring to here, in the discussion of explossive dynamics. In short, to come up from a lower frequency will be more apparent, but that says nothing about the manner in which said amp climbs up the scale. This is what I think we are talking about with "control," but I am having a hard time hearing it.
"Such higher resolution systems remove a somewhat tinny "haze" over the entire image - resulting in a sound that initially seems darker and somehow rolled off."
Now I'm confused again. I don't hear any "haze," although I do hear that the NAD is warmer by a tad. It seems less crisp and less detailed.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I am really trying to quantify some of these things I'm supposed to be hearing. The HCA-2 should be vastly superior to the the NAD, especially considering the differences in rated specs, but I haven't found vast differences, and I have usually used other terms to describe them.
Has anyone else done some side-by-side testing of two amps after reading this discussion? I suppose a side-by-side test of a pro audio amp and a home audio amp, would be appropriate here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
I hear the word "control" a lot in reviews, but I'm not sure I'm getting it. I'm not sitting in front of my speakers right now, so I can't verify what I'm describing, but I don't think either the HCA-2 or the NAD have trouble with control.
Everything is relative. The differences may not be significant between those two units.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
"...can help achieve a "blacker" background." Colors have always confused me. I realize that to express music in words is difficult, but what do you mean by "blacker" ?
A lower noise floor, especially evident at the lowest levels. At first blush, everything sounds somewhat darker or rolled off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest a correction. If there is missing material as a result of the system, it should be missing all across the scale. Aren't we simply saying that our ears are not as capable of discerning the missing material in the upper frequencies - but that it is still missing?
I am referring to a masking effect where musical detail is lost or blurred in the relative noise floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
In short, to come up from a lower frequency will be more apparent, but that says nothing about the manner in which said amp climbs up the scale. This is what I think we are talking about with "control," but I am having a hard time hearing it.
The control or authority I refer to is not really a frequency specific sort of thing. An authoritative amp exhibits an utter sense of ease in the upper octaves as well as the lower ones. I too, find it difficult to sense without a point of comparison. The first amp I heard demonstrate that quality was a C-J Premier One back in 1980. I was recently rereading a TAS from 1978 for JWC's report on the first Telarc Recording. As I was thumbing through it, I also found a review of the Dynaco ST-416 amp and C-100 storage box. Following the lead by long term Dyna modifier Frank Van Alstine, Dynaco offered an outboard box containing an additional 100,000 uf of capacitance. The review compared the amp without and with one, two, or three of the C-100s. They opined that one was a definite improvement, two seemed to help at the highest levels, but three was no better than two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Now I'm confused again. I don't hear any "haze," although I do hear that the NAD is warmer by a tad. It seems less crisp and less detailed.
Here I'm referring to the benefits offered by aftermarket power cords or power regenerators. Recently, I bought some Harmonic Technology power cords for the monoblocks in the main system and moved the existing cords to my vintage music system and to the HT. In the vintage system, I am hearing a darker, clearer presentation rendered with more subtle detail. Imagine two pictures, one that contains a bit of glare from the sun and the other not. The details of the one containing glare are less well defined while the other photo is crystal clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
The HCA-2 should be vastly superior to the the NAD, especially considering the differences in rated specs, but I haven't found vast differences, and I have usually used other terms to describe them.
Well, "vast differences" are not what you are likely to find between those two amps. Other than power, I've yet to draw any direct correlations to quality musical reproduction and rated specs that are alleged to draw qualitative distinctions such as THD.
rw
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i read the word blacker and the only thing that comes to mind is spinal tap with their black album in which there is "none more black"
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I just bought another one
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Very nice indeed. Now where else are you going to find a 1100W amp with 0.05% THD? A friend of mine is about to spend $2500 on a stereo amp. I can't wait to tell him about this one.
Now, the real question: how does the consumer market get away with charging at least twice as much for all their amps? I'm starting to feel a little jilted myself for all the amps I've bought (and sold) over the last decade...
Well I just decided to get another so I can bridge them.
That will be 4800 watts at 8 ohms.
QSC has decided not to sell the reference quality amplifier anymore.
I picked up the second one brand new for $1300.00 not a cheap as the first one I got from Musicans Friend when they had them for 799.99 but still less than than the 2499.00 they retailed for.
The guy I bought it from has only six new ones left so if any of you are interested I can give you his phone number by private message.
He mostly sells pro equipment for commercial customers but can sell to the general public as well.
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Anyone Interested In One?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRANDONH
Well I just decided to get another so I can bridge them.
That will be 4800 watts at 8 ohms.
QSC has decided not to sell the reference quality amplifier anymore.
I picked up the second one brand new for $1300.00 not a cheap as the first one I got from Musicans Friend when they had them for 799.99 but still less than than the 2499.00 they retailed for.
The guy I bought it from has only six new ones left so if any of you are interested I can give you his phone number by private message.
He mostly sells pro equipment for commercial customers but can sell to the general public as well.
Is no one intrested in getting one of these while supplies last?
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An interesting thread..what is a joule???
E-stat...everybody knows power cords don't make a difference..why do you continue to say this..just buy some (more) vanilla cords...:p
I would be concerned with several things with respect to the total energy storage of the supply bank..
1. How much droop occurs during heavy loads, and how this droop level makes it's way back into the electronics..output stage gain modulating (hfe vs Vce down neat Vce(sat), modulation of the damping factor in all four output quadrants.
2. How the input circuit re-charges this drain, both haversinewise and conductivity coupled cap draw back through the bridges.
3. For smps setups, are they two stage with PFC, or single stage..at least the PFC has spare energy to feed in during line zero crossings. (single phase systems).
4. The hf capacitance characteristics of the supply caps and loop coupling from the output draw back to the xfmr and out the line cord..geometry based, of course..a larger bank of capacitors makes the loop coupling less as a result of spreading the full current out among more spacial volume, thereby reducing the loop coupling to nearby circuits.
5. How inadequate the star grounding scheme is for large, hf current draws into low impedance loads.
Me, I just play with my rmx 1450..so far, it has served me well..but my applications have the amp over 35 feet from the front row of audience..about 100 feet from me (when I am hovering over the summer hired school kid who runs the sound and lights.) So I am unconcerned with fan noise.
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
An interesting thread..what is a joule???
That reminds me of the classic line delivered by actor Fred Gwynne (Herman Munster) as judge in the movie "My Cousin Vinnie". After Joe Pesci as defense lawyer talks about "youths", Fred asks "What's a yute?"
A joule is a unit of energy or work named after nineteenth century physicist Jimmy Joule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
E-stat...everybody knows power cords don't make a difference..why do you continue to say this..just buy some (more) vanilla cords...:p
You know those crazy audiophiles and their shared mass hysteria. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
I would be concerned with several things with respect to the total energy storage of the supply bank..
I'll leave the details to you. I just know I like 'em really big to provide better dynamics and slam. The two best sounding amps in my experience, the VTL Wotan and the ASR Emitter II Exclusive have such. The power supply of each mono Wotan stores 780 joules. While I'm not sure of the joule rating for the ASR, it possesses 1.2 farads of capacitance (400,000 uF of which is used in the battery supply for the input stage).
rw
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
That reminds me of the classic line delivered by actor Fred Gwynne (Herman Munster) as judge in the movie "My Cousin Vinnie". After Joe Pesci as defense lawyer talks about "youths", Fred asks "What's a yute?"
rw
That was a good line..I really enjoyed Fred in that one..
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
A joule is a unit of energy or work named after nineteenth century physicist Jimmy Joule.
rw
I thought it was named after his brother "Crown"..or his father "Family".
We just shipped out a magnet for use in a facility on site, we had to test it and make it use less liquid, it stored 1.5 megajoules. But it was inductive storage, so didn't have the "slam" my 6 kiloamp diode pulser had..
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
You know those crazy audiophiles and their shared mass hysteria. ;)
rw
Yah, we should take em out the back and shoot em..or at least make em listen to inna gadda da vita on headphones..:eek: :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I'll leave the details to you. I just know I like 'em really big to provide better dynamics and slam. The two best sounding amps in my experience, the VTL Wotan and the ASR Emitter II Exclusive have such. The power supply of each mono Wotan stores 780 joules. While I'm not sure of the joule rating for the ASR, it possesses 1.2 farads of capacitance (400,000 uF of which is used in the battery supply for the input stage).
rw
Crazy audiophiles one and all..it'd be so much more elegant to pull the v feedback off the speaker terminals using a quadaxial setup of the type I had sent to Ted. Too bad he never returned them to me..
Oh well, live and learn..It'll be interesting to find my design on someone's product in the near future..with no credit for da tinkin part of it..
Man, I love this jpeg capability..nothin like a pic..here's that cap bank. uses copper buss cause it's 6 kiloamps. 32 capacitors, 2000 uf apiece, 400 volts give or take..5,120 joules..I'm glad I only deal with the small stuff, the big stuff scares me..:eek:
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
I thought it was named after his brother "Crown"..or his father "Family"
Stiffness counts whether we're talking power supplies, gems, or um -- well you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Man, I love this jpeg capability..nothin like a pic..here's that cap bank. uses copper buss cause it's 6 kiloamps. 32 capacitors, 2000 uf apiece, 400 volts give or take..5,120 joules..I'm glad I only deal with the small stuff, the big stuff scares me..:eek:
Kewl. This system using three pair of Wotans has almost as much - 4,680 joules. Which in Rolls Royce speak is "a surfeit of adequacy".
http://vtl.com/images/pict_hifi98a_s1.jpg
Close up of Wotans at HP's and those crazy Valhalla cables (didn't have the matching power cords then)
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallac...wotan_rear.jpg
rw
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Mr Neutron....have I got something for you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Man, I love this jpeg capability..nothin like a pic..here's that cap bank. uses copper buss cause it's 6 kiloamps. 32 capacitors, 2000 uf apiece, 400 volts give or take..5,120 joules..I'm glad I only deal with the small stuff, the big stuff scares me..:eek:
Cheers, John
These guys are amateurs, but they look like the're having lots of fun!
http://205.243.100.155/frames/gallery/capbank3.jpg
http://205.243.100.155/frames/gallery/View_WA.jpg
http://205.243.100.155/frames/shrinkergallery.html
a quote; " Once the main gap fires, current rapidly climbs in the work coil, the rate of change (di/dt) being of the order of 4-5 billion amperes/second."
http://205.243.100.155/frames/Quarter_5000J1.jpg
"You can also see the highly conductive arc inside the trigatron switch (the cylindrical object to the right of the blast shield) as it switches over 100,000 amps into the work coil. The resulting magnetic field can erase nearby credit cards. And yes, it makes a BIG bang..."
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E-stat: back in '78 I dj'd a club, I had installed the system, 4800 watts at roughly 100dbspl sensitivity...once, only once, did I ever hit the tonearm..a cuff on my shirt caught it while I was workin the light panel..scraped it across the vinyl...it sounded like lightning had hit the building..the entire club stopped, all eyes looked at me, most of them outta fear, some may have, umm, had an accident..all I could do was lean over into the mike, and say.....whoa...
If I did that at HP's, would the EMT's know how to deal with the carnage?? Perhaps the coroner carries a foxtail and dustpan, or a dyson..
Geoff...I kinda figured it'd be either the shrinker guys, or a pic of the Z-pinch bank during discharge..
They're all nuts..but, that is the most fun..
Cheers, John
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I thought you'ld get a kick outta that
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Geoff...I kinda figured it'd be either the shrinker guys, or a pic of the Z-pinch bank during discharge..
They're all nuts..but, that is the most fun..
Cheers, John
Those guys are only working with 30kJ, but the big boys with the Z machine;
http://205.243.100.155/frames/Z02A.jpg
18 million amps in 10 billionths of a second.....yeah baby!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
If I did that at HP's, would the EMT's know how to deal with the carnage?? Perhaps the coroner carries a foxtail and dustpan, or a dyson.
Trust me, I demonstrate the appropriate patience, mechanical empathy and reverence whenever I lower a $4000 cartridge onto a $20,000 turntable in a $350,000 system!!
Gain always gone down first. Likewise when I first place the heavy platter weight over the disk itself or when cleaning the stylus. Fortunately, the table is situated atop an isolation base on his rack requiring a step stool to access rendering it difficult to bump inadvertently.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Trust me, I demonstrate the appropriate patience, mechanical empathy and reverence whenever I lower a $4000 cartridge onto a $20,000 turntable in a $350,000 system!!
Gain always gone down first. Likewise when I first place the heavy platter weight over the disk itself or when cleaning the stylus. Fortunately, the table is situated atop an isolation base on his rack requiring a step stool to access rendering it difficult to bump inadvertently.
rw
What...no mirror ball, strobe, or helicopter effects?? Geeze, no fun..;)
Cheers, John
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I would very much like to try a K1 or K2 Crown amp with my Klipsch Speakers. A few people have told me not to and a few have told me to try it. When I get the opportunity I will be singing like a bird whether it mates well or not.......I am curious as heck.
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I was wondering how would a Crown XLS 402(about 250$) compare in sound quality and power to the ONIX A-60(right now, about 250$)? i was comparing them and thinking of replacing my crown for the onix, but don't know...
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