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  1. #1
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    Need Help on Integrated Amps

    A few weeks ago I have decided to upgrate my old (almost 20 yrs) hi-fi system to a new one, and the hunt for the neccesary parts is like an endless pain... anyway, currently I'm trying to find a good integrated amp for my new system, here's my new setup:

    ==>Yamaha RX-V2400 (Receiver)
    [-- V2400 spec:
    Minimum RMS Output Power (8 ohms, 2020,000 Hz, 0.04% THD)
    120 W X 7
    Dynamic Power/Channel 8 ohms 155 W
    6 ohms 195 W
    4 ohms 260 W
    2 ohms 330 W
    Damping Factor (8 ohms, 2020,000 Hz) 140 (speaker A)
    Input Sensitivity/Impedance Phono (MM) 3.5 mV/47 k-ohms
    CD 200 mV/47 k-ohms
    Frequency Response 10100,000 Hz +0, -3 dB
    Total Harmonic Distortion (2020,000 Hz)
    CD (Front Sp Out) 0.04%
    Signa-to-Noise Ratio (CD, 250 mV) 100 dB]

    ==>Yamaha DVD S-2300 (DVD Plaper)

    ==>Axiom M80ti (Main Speaker)
    [--M80ti spec:
    Max Amp Power 400 Watts
    Min Amp Power 10 Watts
    Freq Resp +/-3dB (Hz) 34-22K
    Freq Resp +3dB/-9dB (Hz) 25-22K
    SPL in Room 1w/1m 95 dB
    Anechoic SPL 1w/1m 91 dB
    Impedance 4 Ohms ]


    ...and the rest of the system is basically undecided. I hope the spec of the M80ti can give you a general idea of what kind of amp should be driving my new system. Even though the RX-V2400 is powerful enough to give the speakers a good run, still I feel there's something lacking. It will be great if I can go to some audio stores but, unfortunately, I don't know anyone and I have to keep the whole Hi-Fi-Thing from my beheaded (and certainly beloved) wife. After reading many posts, I now have three options:

    1. Rogue Tempest
    http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_T...Specifications

    2. Creek 5350SE
    http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...Specifications

    3. Denon PMA-2000 IV R
    http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=9

    I wonder if you have any recommendations for those three amps, or any other alternatives. My budget is flexible but if it's under $2,600 will be nice. The system will be mostly playing for Jazz, Opera, Classic and sometimes Rock (for the boys, even that may not be a good idea). It would help out me a lot if you guys can give me some advice. Thanks.

  2. #2
    F1
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    I don't think you need another amp for your system but a subwoofer will likely make a big difference in low Hz department. Or probaby you even need to change your new Axiom that maybe more suitable for your taste, hehe

  3. #3
    DMK
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    Well, if you buy the Denon, you're paying for a built in MM/MC phono stage that you won't be using - and a good quality one, at that! The easy answer (for me!) is for you to buy a turntable and some records immediately! . It's a very nice amp and will easily better your Yamaha. But the Creek is also very nice - I'm trying to remember if that's the 85 watt version - I think it is. Get some headphones if you buy either of these because they have GREAT built in headphone amps! And unless you like tinnitus-inducing volume, you'll probably never use more than a dozen watts if those Axiom's are as sensitive as the specs you've posted. 95 db/1 w/1 m? 32 watts of power will produce 110 db SPL so sit well away from your speakers!

    I'm not familiar with the Rogue but it's received good reviews and I assume you aren't interested in tubed amps. If you are, I have some recommendations, being of the opinion that tubes have overall superior sonics if you're willing to accept the PITA they can be. But again, either the Denon or the Creek are great. I've owned the Denon (an earlier version) and spent a lot of time with the Creek (if it's the one I think it is - I always get those durned models numbers mixed up!) and have found neither terribly lacking.

  4. #4
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    Naim Nait 5: Retail is @ $1500. 30 watts@ 8ohms, 55watts @4ohms
    This is a wonderful sounding little integrated.
    I know what your thinking, it's too small. Trust me, It would have no problem driving your Axiom's.
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  5. #5
    Forum Regular royphil345's Avatar
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    Wink Why integrated amp with a receiver?

    If you're looking to add an amp to the Yamaha receiver via the pre outs you just need a power amp, not an integrated amp. Integrated amp is a power amp with a built-in preamp. You'd already be using the Yamaha as a preamp (to control volume, tone, input selection...). You could choose to add a stereo amp for the main 2 channels and possibly add more later, or get a home theater amp with more channels.

    Truth is you'd probably end up with a system that can play a little louder, but probably wouldn't sound much different. The Yamaha receiver is the "weak link"

    ...Or are you planning to ditch the Yamaha in favor of an integrated amp as the others seem to assume? That would get you better sound quality, but you'd lose home theater.

    There are better sounding home theater receivers than Yamaha. I'd swap it for one if I had to have home theater and couldn't afford an all seperates system.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by koeslter
    ... I hope the spec of the M80ti can give you a general idea of what kind of amp should be driving my new system. Even though the RX-V2400 is powerful enough to give the speakers a good run, still I feel there's something lacking. It will be great if I can go to some audio stores but, unfortunately, I don't know anyone and I have to keep the whole Hi-Fi-Thing from my beheaded (and certainly beloved) wife. After reading many posts, I now have three options:
    How or why do you think you have an amp problem and a new one will solve it?
    You give no clue as to your dissatisfaction.

    I don't see anything wrong with the component you have. As F1 indicated, you most likely would benefit from a sub. Give that option a chance and a try and see if that is it.
    mtrycrafts

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up Awesome Folks

    Your opinions matters a lot to me, thks!

    To F1 and mtrycraft:
    I thought of that too, cause as I said my system is still "under-construction," I'll definitly get a sub

    To DMK, bturk667 and royphil345:
    I'd first test my system with a sub, if that still sounds awkward to me, then I'll get an amp. The one i might get will probably be Denon, for my boys is going to play rocks and hiphop (no raps, I'll kill them if they play raps), so IF the system is screw anyhow, I won't have to cry like a little girl...

  8. #8
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    koeslter:
    You've received some decent advice here from some, but some terrible advice from others. Notably from royphil345 whose statements denigrating the Yamaha receiver are simply way off base and total nonsense to boot!

    He says:
    "Truth is you'd probably end up with a system that can play a little louder, but probably wouldn't sound much different. The Yamaha receiver is the "weak link"

    This is so insane that initially it had me rolling on the floor in hysterical laughter ... then my laughter turned into disgust that anyone would dispense such nonsense (without even identifying it as his opinion) when they obviously don't actually know diddly about the subject at hand.

    Then in closing he says:
    "There are better sounding home theater receivers than Yamaha. I'd swap it for one if I had to have home theater and couldn't afford an all seperates system."

    This is also a totally ridiculous statement without any basis in fact to back it up.

    I've spent a lifetime (more than 50 years) actually working on this gear. Also, I'm a musician as well as an electronic tech/engineer, so I have a bit more practical experience to bring to bear when judging electronic equipment than your average "audiophile" wannabe. My opinion on what you've asked about is as follows:

    If you buy the Yamaha 2400 receiver, you will NOT need to add any further amplification ... period. You will also not be sacrificing a thing in sound quality either. Steer clear of Denon components - they are not what they once were. I do concur with what others have said about the need for a decent subwoofer - whether for watching movies or for listening to music, a subwoofer is an essential ingredient, IMO.

    Hope this helps you
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  9. #9
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    Thank you Woodman, such kind of opinion is what I'm looking for.

    The Yamaha system sounds very nice to me. What I said "something lacking" previously may refer to many things. For my boys have done the "bi-wiring", the most probable reason may be the speakers has not yet "open up" (I think that's the correct term).

    Because I know I suck (seriously) when it comes to anything about hi-fi, and that's why I spend lots of time reading reviews. Like many other people out there, I desire my system to be as perfect, as user-oriented, as beautiful (wife factor), and of course, as durable it can be. I plan on using a good system for at least a decade to the fact that my previous system devoted a long 18 years to me and my family. And that's why, as I said earlier, I have a flexible budget merely for getting a great system.

    My audio room is not too big, maybe 230 sq. ft. in total, but it's very spacy and open, not to mention it's in a neat square shape. There's only one door and no windows. A TV, audio rack, a tea table and a long couch are all the furnitures in that room. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I live in rural area, and it's dead quiet even in day time here. All these factor allows me to have a very focus mind whenever I listen to my system, and my musican wife would sometime listen to music with me all night. Even though she know nought about hi-fi, she can tell if it's a good system or not. This is why, a good system is so important to me.

    Thank you, and thanks all. I'm going to get a sub, and patiently wait until all of the speakers open up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by koeslter
    Your opinions matters a lot to me, thks!

    To F1 and mtrycraft:
    I thought of that too, cause as I said my system is still "under-construction," I'll definitly get a sub

    To DMK, bturk667 and royphil345:
    I'd first test my system with a sub, if that still sounds awkward to me, then I'll get an amp. The one i might get will probably be Denon, for my boys is going to play rocks and hiphop (no raps, I'll kill them if they play raps), so IF the system is screw anyhow, I won't have to cry like a little girl...

    Make sure that when you get a sub or borrow one to test, you get a capable sub, not a whimp, or that will give you false impressions too.
    mtrycrafts

  11. #11
    Forum Regular royphil345's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Wish a Yamaha receiver would do it for me but...

    ...Find them a little thin sounding and lacking in detail. MANY other people have agreed with me on this. VERY bad match for Axiom M80 in my opinion. They will get you some detail for the money, but not extremely sweet-sounding. Yamaha will give you less richness with little "magic" on these speakers. No outboard amplification or subwoofer will fix this.

    So.. Keep rolling on the floor laughing at me and listen to your poorly-matched system with your "doesn't get any better than this super high-end yamaha AV receiver" or whatever the heck it is that you do.

    And why the heck are you flaming me when everyone else is recommending integrated amplifiers to use with a receiver? Maybe just an irate Yamaha owner?.. I'm not saying there's no place for a Yamaha receiver... Just not my house!!! ... kidding...

    This site is all about opinions. Calling mine funny when the best you can do is "get a subwoofer" seems a little idiotic to me.

  12. #12
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    Here's the rub

    [QUOTE=royphil345
    This site is all about opinions. .[/QUOTE]

    Quite frankly, someone asking for advice on which amp/speakers/cable/CD player on this site has to end up frustrated for the most part. There are such wildly disparate opinions flying around and all of them based on either experience, listening, measurements, white papers, audio mags, other users, etc. On this very thread, one person views Yamaha as state of the art in amplification and one doesn't. Some say the measurements tell us virtually all there is to know about sound and others are at the opposite extreme. This CD player is "bright", says one poster. "Dull", says another poster. Consumer Reports is the place to go for audio gear info, says one camp. Not so, says another. Use your ears vs ears can be fooled. DBT vs observational sighted listening. Cables are mentioned as bright sounding, thin bass, thick bass, rolled of highs, extended highs, no different sonically than any other - opinions given by different users ALL ON THE SAME CABLE!!!! What ultimately happens is that the new poster ends up deciding for themselves anyway, either by sheer number or sheer force of the respondents or by simply throwing up their arms in frustration and doing the eenie-meenie-miney-mo thing.

    This site is interesting for some of the facts that can be picked up and also some things that cause one to want to explore further. But it is the LAST place I'd go for advice on what to buy. Having said that, I have some buying advice for newbies! The advice is: if you have to ask what to buy rather than auditioning for yourself, go with the cheapest component that has the features/aesthetics/power you need or want. If there is no difference in sound between it and a "high end" component, you haven't overspent. If there is a difference, you'll never know it so you won't find the component lacking.

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