Need an amp!

[mlenda]

You don't use the DAC for the phono which is analog, its only for the Digital out from a CD Player or DVD player bypassing the internal DAC in the players. You will run the turntable to the Phono Preamp to the Analog input of the Preamp/DAC-11 and then out the tube output to the power amp (or the solid state out if you chose to bypass the tube if you so desire). You will hook up your CD players digital out to the digital input of the DAC-11. The DAC-11 has a selector switch so that you can switch between different inputs (SOURCES-like turntable, CD player, tuner, computer, etc.). A TurnTable does not use a DAC ( converts a digital signal to an analog signal) as it puts out an analog signal that must be amplified by a phono preamp.

I must have misspoken (.. typed) -- you just said what I meant to say!

-m

[Enochrome]

Blackraven,

I emailed Ian at GF and he confirmed that the preamp is actually passive, in that it is just a volume attentuator. Have you noticed a low noise floor cause of this in the bypass tube mode? or even the tube output?

[blackraven]

Blackraven,

I emailed Ian at GF and he confirmed that the preamp is actually passive, in that it is just a volume attentuator. Have you noticed a low noise floor cause of this in the bypass tube mode? or even the tube output?

No I have not.

[Enochrome]

So are you saying that the background isn't very black, i.e. has some noise to it? Possibly it is the tube, or what is to be expected. My Jolida 502a is not dead silent because of the tube output always gives off noise.

[blackraven]

So are you saying that the background isn't very black, i.e. has some noise to it? Possibly it is the tube, or what is to be expected. My Jolida 502a is not dead silent because of the tube output always gives off noise.

I am sorry, I meant to say that it is dead quite. There is no noise that I can hear and the MMG's are very revealing if there is any noise present. (I was tired and had too much beer when I gave my original reply).

[Enochrome]

I am sorry, I meant to say that it is dead quite. There is no noise that I can hear and the MMG's are very revealing if there is any noise present. (I was tired and had too much beer when I gave my original reply).

Ha!

No sweat. I can understand that and thanks for giving me insight into this product.

[eisforelectronic]

I highly recommend the Rega Brio-R integrated amp. It also has a built in phono-preamp. I also own a Peachtree iNova which has pretty much become an iDac since the Rega sounds much better.

[mlenda]

Hey folks, so I've got an update...

Stopped by GNP Audio today and got some great help. I told them my situation and they arrived at a nice conclusion: The Bellari VP130 will definitely get the job, and then some. No need to go up to the Pro-Ject Tube Box unless I upgrade my TT, which I see no need for at the moment. They had a broken-in Bellari on demo and even let you take it home overnight! You pay them, then they refund you the next day. I will be doing this once I've put the other pieces together...

Now the story has become about two things: Speakers (which should go into a discussion in the Speakers forum, but hey...) and subs. When I got back from vacation and measured my room at my house, I tried coming up with a notional speaker placement and geometric layout. Nothing worked. My room is big, but not quite big enough for those Maggies. Well, then I got word that my roommate got picked up by a company in Denver and he's moving out in a week. He's got the big master bedroom -- and I do mean BIG. For extra rent, of course, I'm going to take that room. It affords me this gigantic soundstage that would be excellent for Maggies. In fact, I can tailor the whole room to the speaker setup, rather than the other way around! Awesome. Couldn't have worked out better.

So I headed down to a place in La Habra called Hi5Stereo. They're a small hifi audio store... and a Magnepan dealer! I wanted to hear those ribbons for myself before pulling the trigger. They didn't have MMGs, but they had the 3.7's, the mini Maggies, and the wall-hanging. They played a few of them for me (through a 200wpc@4ohm amp) and I could definitely tell that I will need a sub. They oomf just wasn't there. I had been suspecting that maybe the "these have no bass" reviews of the Maggies were just audiophiles being picky, but then I heard them for myself and completely agree. Even the 3.7's, running at $2k, were missing some beef. He then turned on a sub, and everything just OPENED UP -- those Maggies are just wide open and beautiful. Sexy as hell.

The salesman asked me what amp/preamp/etc. I had been recommended. I told them: class-D amp with 250wpc @ 4ohms, a DAC (acting also as input switching and volume control), and a Bellari tube phono preamp. They said, "Damn fine. Your system will be gorgeous." This guy in particular was a huge fan of class-D amps, as it turns out. I'm not convinced I should jump to the 3.7's yet; I might do the buy-and-trade-in thing with the MMGs. But that's another thread.

(btw, I'm going to try out the Shure M97xe cart; might also get a Grado Prestige Blue later on.)

Now, back to a relevant matter for this thread: I will indeed be getting a sub. How should I drive it since the class-D amp I'm looking at doesn't seem to provide outputs for more than just two speakers? Again, here's the setup:

TT ==> phono preamp ==> DAC (obviously bypass the DAC; digital music going through here too) ==> Class-D amp

Unless the class-D amp can also power the sub, how/where will the sub get powered?

-m

[Enochrome]

Could I recommend that you bypass the Sure and Grado and get a AT440MLA. Some say it is bright but the Bellari will negate that. What it can do is track and pull detail like a high end cart. Also, it has bass slam, which = awesome. It is MM so it will match the Bellari well.

You'll need a preout on the Class D integrated or a preamp with two output rca's. You'll most likely need an active sub that you can set the crossover frequency at most likely 80hz. That way any low signals will go through the sub and all the midrange and high frequencies ( above 80hz) will be handle by the Maggies, which is what they are best at.

If I was in your position I would choose a DAC that has great dynamics, attack and full midrange that way it will balance out the Maggies, but also highlight their fast and limber nature. What DAC is that? I do not know, I am shopping for one myself right now.

Good Luck

[mlenda]

Could I recommend that you bypass the Sure and Grado and get a AT440MLA. Some say it is bright but the Bellari will negate that. What it can do is track and pull detail like a high end cart. Also, it has bass slam, which = awesome. It is MM so it will match the Bellari well.

I'll put that cart on my list. I'll see how the Shure does and return it if it doesn't work. Then I'll probably try the Grado, rinse and repeat, then the AT440MLA. I've heard good things about that cart.

You'll need a preout on the Class D integrated or a preamp with two output rca's. You'll most likely need an active sub that you can set the crossover frequency at most likely 80hz. That way any low signals will go through the sub and all the midrange and high frequencies ( above 80hz) will be handle by the Maggies, which is what they are best at.

I'm checking with the Class-D Audio folks to see if the SDS-254 can be equipped with a pre-out or otherwise RCA out in addition to the standard speaker outs. We'll see what they say...

If I was in your position I would choose a DAC that has great dynamics, attack and full midrange that way it will balance out the Maggies, but also highlight their fast and limber nature. What DAC is that? I do not know, I am shopping for one myself right now.

Good Luck

blackraven has paired his Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 with Maggies and a Class-D amp, I believe, and says it's a great combo. We'll see how nicely it plays with me.

-m




EDIT:

Silly me, I forgot that the TubeDAC-11 has three outputs: Line Out, Tube Out, and DAC Out. If I use an active sub, I can just connect it to the Line Out and don't need to have a pre-out on the SDS-254 amp. Duhhhhhh.

(The Tube Out will be going to amp, and will play the signal from either the TT or the digital source. The DAC out can be use to simply bypass the tube output if I don't want to use it.)

[Ajani]

I highly recommend the Rega Brio-R integrated amp. It also has a built in phono-preamp. I also own a Peachtree iNova which has pretty much become an iDac since the Rega sounds much better.

The Brio-R really has been generating a lot of buzz... I'd love to audition one...

[mlenda]

Update!

A few weeks later, the system is coming together. The final setup will be:

Audio-Technica TT (already own -- that's the next upgrade I'll make, maybe next year?)
Shure M97xe Cartridge
Bellari VP130 Tube Phono Preamp
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 DAC
Class-D Audio SDS-254 Amplifier
Magnepan MMG Speakers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700 Subwoofer

So far, only the cartridge, DAC, and MMGs have made their way here. (Those MMGs, man... so beautiful and elegant!)

I'm swinging by GNP Audio today to pick up the Bellari preamp and ML sub. Hopefully the amp will get here by next week... my ears are itching for vinyl.

Should be a killer system. Will post reviews sometime, once everything is broken in.

-m

[LeRoy]

Update!

A few weeks later, the system is coming together. The final setup will be:

Audio-Technica TT (already own -- that's the next upgrade I'll make, maybe next year?)
Shure M97xe Cartridge
Bellari VP130 Tube Phono Preamp
Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 DAC
Class-D Audio SDS-254 Amplifier
Magnepan MMG Speakers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700 Subwoofer

So far, only the cartridge, DAC, and MMGs have made their way here. (Those MMGs, man... so beautiful and elegant!)

I'm swinging by GNP Audio today to pick up the Bellari preamp and ML sub. Hopefully the amp will get here by next week... my ears are itching for vinyl.

Should be a killer system. Will post reviews sometime, once everything is broken in.

-m

I will be looking forward to your system review. I am particularly interested in your opinion of the MMG performance.

[mlenda]

Alright folks, need to do a little situation debugging... getting no sound out of the speakers!

Here's the setup:

TT - Audio Technica ATPL120
Phono Preamp - Bellari VP130
DAC - Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11
Amplifier - Class-D Audio SDS-254 Complete
Speakers - Magnepan MMGs

[ TT ] ==> RCA ==> [ Phono Preamp ] ==> RCA ==> [ DAC ] ==> RCA ==> Amplifier ==> Speaker Wire ==> Speakers

Things to note:
-On the DAC, there is the option for 3 outputs: "DAC Out", "Line Out" and "Tube Out." The DAC Out line comes out at full volume and must go to a device with volume control (this is per the instruction sheet); the other two's volumes are controlled by the knob on the DAC. I normally would use one of these two (Line or Tube).
-The amplifier has volume knobs on the back above each channel's pair of outputs going to the speakers.
-The output of the amp is banana; the input to the speakers is spade; everything else is RCA

I then double-checked:

1) Power getting to each individual item -- Turntable (on and moving), phono preamp (tube is glowing, light is on), DAC (red light is on), amplifier (glowing blue on the inside and front light is on).

2) Connection strength and polarity of all signal-carrying lines -- black to black and red to red everywhere.

I tested the signal at each junction to see where it stopped:

1) Headphone jack out of the phono preamp: Check. Comes in at good volume and the volume control/mute/rumble filter all work as expected.
==> Signal is getting from the TT to the phono preamp.

2) Headphone jack out of the DAC: Check. Comes in at good volume and the volume control works as expected.
==> Signal is getting from the phono preamp to the DAC.

3) Unplugged headphones and re-tried the speakers: NO GOOD. No volume at all.

A few things to note:
-When turning on the amplifier, I can here a subtle "pop" in the speakers, indicating that power is getting to them.
-Other than this "pop", no noise or static coming out of the speakers.
-Volume on all items turned up to full -- preamp output level, DAC output level, even the individual knobs for each output channel on the on back of the amp -- and still nothing.
-I have tried both outputs on the DAC (Line Out and Tube Out).
-I have tried both inputs on the DAC (Line A and Line B).
-No smoking equipment!

Seems as though I've isolated the problem to the amplifier. It is getting power and all connections are solid. What could I have done wrong? Is there a component mismatch that I don't know about?

AHHHHHHH! HELP! FIRST NIGHT AND IT'S NOT PLAYIN!

-m


EDIT:

Standby... now it's working...

[Ajani]

Glad to hear it's working. So how does it sound?

[Enochrome]

The only thing I can think of is that the DAC-11 needs to be set into "preamp mode" so it then can be used as such. I believe you need to connect via either "tube out" or "line out" depending on whether you want the tube sound or not.

Now this is where it gets tricky: I read a forum thread (which I will try to find the link for you)on Audio Karma, where Ian, the owner of Grant Fidelity post answers to questions about his products. One questions was about the DAC-11 as a preamp. Ian said that all the DAC-11 are shipped in "DAC mode" and that you need to specify when you order that you would like it set to "preamp mode". The way to change it is that they're is a little jumper inside that you need to adjust to put it in preamp mode. THIS IS EASILY DOABLE SO YOU ARE ALL GOOD. After that the DAC-11 will run both as a dac and a preamp, and you can adjust the gain of the music with the volume knob of the DAC-11. Most people find a set volume level and leave it there and control loudness through the volume knob on their amp, but either way is fine.

Hold on and let me find the link to the instructions on setting the dac to preamp mode.

[Enochrome]

Are you using "Dac Out" or "Tube Out" to the class d amp? If you are using dac out then you cannot use the volume knob.

[mlenda]

Interesting point, Enochrome -- and strange, really, because I didn't ask for it when I ordered it and it's playing just fine without any mods.

EDIT: I am using the Line Out... not the DAC out. Just to be clear.

The question I have on the DAC-11 is this: When I used the Tube Out line, the volume output is much lower -- it's not totally inaudible and doesn't feel like the usual "you're listening to the output of a phono line you idiot" kind of problem. It's definitely much lower than the output on the Line Out line even with everything at full tilt.

There's also a noticeable buzz -- swapping the higher quality cables closer to the preamp side of things got rid of a lot of it. I expect some buzz just because that's how analog systems are. I hope I don't start picking up radio or anything...



So far, it sounds flat -- you know, unused tubes and not-broken-in Maggies. Just as expected. Gotta give it a few dozen hours and it will warm up. Not overly obnoxious in the mids and highs -- and no "hissing" on those vocals! Sweet escape from that pain.

The sound is just wide open. Love it. And these Maggies put out wayyyyy more bass than I was expecting! I've got an active sub just in case I really want to roll hard. I'll have to use the other output line on the DAC for this one.


-m

[Enochrome]

Just read the little "edit" part of your post. Glad that it is working. Please post some impressions of it. There are several of us that are eyeing it.

Was it the dac line out vs. the tube out issue that resolved the problem?

[Enochrome]

Most likely the buzz is from the tube. If it is a 12ax7, it has more gain than most preamp tubes. If you want you can switch to a better 12ax7 tube or go down to a 12au7 tube that provides less gain. The issue of low volume is a mystery. Sometimes tubes need to warm up. Are you adjusting the volume in your class d as well as the dac?

[mlenda]

Just read the little "edit" part of your post. Glad that it is working. Please post some impressions of it. There are several of us that are eyeing it.

Was it the dac line out vs. the tube out issue that resolved the problem?

No, I was always using the Tube Out or the Line Out, intentionally avoiding the DAC Out per the instructions that came with it. I don't know what I changed -- I unplugged it all, grabbed a beer, came back, replugged it all in, and suddenly it worked.

User error, I guess.

Most likely the buzz is from the tube. If it is a 12ax7, it has more gain than most preamp tubes. If you want you can switch to a better 12ax7 tube or go down to a 12au7 tube that provides less gain. The issue of low volume is a mystery. Sometimes tubes need to warm up. Are you adjusting the volume in your class d as well as the dac?

Yeah, everything was at full tilt when I used the Tube Out line. The preamp volume, the DAC volume, the class-d volume... everything.

Hmm..

-m

[blackraven]

First off, check to see that the DAC-11 is set to 110/120V and not 220v. Second, you should not be using the DAC out to the amp. Use the Tube out to the amp or the SS out to the amp. The phono preamp should input to one of the 2 analog inputs not the DAC input. Also check to see that the Bellari is set to MM and not MC catridge if it has MC capabiltity. In addition, you should not get any hum form the tubes. The DAC-11 is dead quiet (at least mine is and the one that a good friend of mine recently bought) The DAC-11 does cause a small pop when you turn it on. Alway turn on your preamp/dac first and your amp last. When turning off the equipment, always turn off the amp first!

One last thing, make sure that your TT and phono preamp are properly grounded.

If you are still having problems then a piece of gear in the chain is broken.

One last comment. If you find the combo of the MMG's, DAC-11 and Class D amp slightly bright after burn in, then consider using th 1ohm tweeter resistors that Magnepan supplies with the MMG's for such problem. If it attentuates the tweeters too much for your liking you can buy lower ohm resistors for about $1 each. Let me know and I will send you the link.

[mlenda]

First off, check to see that the DAC-11 is set to 110/120V and not 220v. Second, you should not be using the DAC out to the amp. Use the Tube out to the amp or the SS out to the amp. The phono preamp should input to one of the 2 analog inputs not the DAC input. Also check to see that the Bellari is set to MM and not MC catridge if it has MC capability.

Check on all those!

In addition, you should not get any hum form the tubes. The DAC-11 is dead quiet (at least mine is and the one that a good friend of mine recently bought)

I'm almost positive it's the TT. It's the lowest quality piece in the chain and is the next thing to get replaced.

I'll have to check if the TT is really the source -- turn it off and leave everything else on? I certainly hope nothing else is broken. Just cracked the $3k mark for everything... haha.

One last comment. If you find the combo of the MMG's, DAC-11 and Class D amp slightly bright after burn in, then consider using th 1ohm tweeter resistors that Magnepan supplies with the MMG's for such problem. If it attentuates the tweeters too much for your liking you can buy lower ohm resistors for about $1 each. Let me know and I will send you the link.

I'll see after burn-in. My listening area doesn't tend to accentuate brightness.

-m

[blackraven]

First off, check to see that the DAC-11 is set to 110/120V and not 220v. Second, you should not be using the DAC out to the amp. Use the Tube out to the amp or the SS out to the amp. The phono preamp should input to one of the 2 analog inputs not the DAC input. Also check to see that the Bellari is set to MM and not MC catridge if it has MC capabiltity. In addition, you should not get any hum form the tubes. The DAC-11 is dead quiet (at least mine is and the one that a good friend of mine recently bought) The DAC-11 does cause a small pop when you turn it on. Alway turn on your preamp/dac first and your amp last. When turning off the equipment, always turn off the amp first!

One last thing, make sure that your TT and phono preamp are properly grounded.

If you are still having problems then a piece of gear in the chain is broken.

One last comment. If you find the combo of the MMG's, DAC-11 and Class D amp slightly bright after burn in, then consider using th 1ohm tweeter resistors that Magnepan supplies with the MMG's for such problem. If it attentuates the tweeters too much for your liking you can buy lower ohm resistors for about $1 each. Let me know and I will send you the link.

Sorry, I did not see that you got things working. Seems like you are enjoying the sound. You put together a really nice system on a budget. The MMG's really sing when you put them with good gear and place them properly. Mine are pushed out to about 2 feet from the corners of the room and they pump out much deeper bass than the rated 50hz. Once you upgrade your TT and cartridge you will notice and even bigger improvement. Eventually the Bellari may hold your system back though.

Enjoy the music!

Larry

[mlenda]

Sorry, I did not see that you got things working. Seems like you are enjoying the sound. You put together a really nice system on a budget. The MMG's really sing when you put them with good gear and place them properly. Mine are pushed out to about 2 feet from the corners of the room and they pump out much deeper bass than the rated 50hz. Once you upgrade your TT and cartridge you will notice and even bigger improvement. Eventually the Bellari may hold your system back though.

Enjoy the music!

Larry

Exactly what the guys at the store said.

Ah! Killed a good portion of the remaining buzz by... whaddya know... taking the damned preamp off of the top of the amp. I placed it there only preliminarily and never meant to leave it there, then forgot about it. I lifted it up and could hear the noise go up and down as I moved it closer and further away from the amp. Duhhhh.

Moved it to a different shelf. Thank god for cable length.

-m