Jolida

[Bigmoney]

I think I will still sell the rotels and pick up and integrated. I just want to save space for school and probably can profit off the deal. What do you all think about the rotel integrateds, I promise to listen to them myself before I buy though.

[Ajani]

I think I will still sell the rotels and pick up and integrated. I just want to save space for school and probably can profit off the deal. What do you all think about the rotel integrateds, I promise to listen to them myself before I buy though.

Well I think you know my opinion on the Rotel Integrated . You should be able to test out either of these combos ($1.4k and $1.5k respectively) at your dealer:

Rotel RA-1062 & RCD-1072
Marantz PM7001 and SA8001

Or mix and match if you prefer.

[Bigmoney]

I dont actual know your opinion on the integrated, how does it compare to the separates. And the two set ups listed are both either all rotel or all marantz, you don't reccomend mixing say the rotel integrated with the marantz 8001 for a warmer sound.

[Ajani]

I dont actual know your opinion on the integrated, how does it compare to the separates.

Hmmm.... if you check your original thread when you were planning to buy the Rotels, you'll see my advice on the Integrated.

To sum up what I said back then: I think the integrated will be just fine and not much of a step down from the seperates.

And the two set ups listed are both either all rotel or all marantz, you don't reccomend mixing say the rotel integrated with the marantz 8001 for a warmer sound.

I've never seen much benefit in mixing and matching, because I really like system synergy. But it really just comes down to what you think sounds best in your audition.

[Bigmoney]

My apology, I recalled what you had said after I posted. Today, I stopped by my dealer and auditioned the b and w cm1s which I really like because of their size and solid wood veneer. I heard them today and, wow! I thought they were in a total separate league from my 602's, but faster, quicker transients, and extremely tight sound. I could distinctly hear notes on eric claptons guitar from road to escondido with jj cale, where as wit hthe 602s they tended to blend together more. I was also astonished because they were playing through a rotel receiver and their lowest make dvd player. I told my dealer my budget, for the system I will purchase a few months ago. I told him 2500, 3000 max for the system. His recommendation wasto get the cm1's and get the rotel 1062 integrated with the rotel 1072 cd player. He also said I should listen to the 8001 for 200 bucks more and the marantz pm 7001 as mentioned before which is actually less than the rotel. He also said he would knock 200 bucks off the final price which would be 2400 before taxes, which is nearly 10 percent, not bad. But I told him I will definetly listen to all the combinations of equipment he has available. Has anyone heard the 685's or cm1 and if so what was your preference. My dealer says the cm 1 is head and shoulders above the 685, but I am not sure if thats due to commision. How do these speakers compare to the 602's.

[Ajani]

Sounds like good advice from your dealer. I've auditioned the CM1s several times and compared them directly to the 805s. IMO, they are excellent bookshelf speakers for the price and frankly they really made me question whether the 805S were worth the extra money (almost triple the price).... But make sure you do extended auditions with the CM1s and both the Rotels and Marantz to ensure that they don't turn out to be too bright for you.

Edit: I haven't heard the 685 though, so I can't comment on them.

[Bigmoney]

Has anyone compared th 685's to the the cm1's?

[jrhymeammo]

Rotel is obviously a step above Marantz and Denon lines offered here in US. Their reference lines are very good. Any ways, Rotel 1062 will be a nice integrated for you, but if you are still interested in tubes, you would want to consider used Primalune over Jolida. ASL and Dared products are just rebadget chinese products with advertising. Used Primaluna Prologue 1 or 2 are listed for under $1k. At around this price range, you need to purchase equipments with highest quality parts. I think PrimaLuna excels at your price range.

You need to make sure you have access to tube replacements. For that I would stay away from Vincent. Also, Vincent like others are just rebadged products. I would stay away.....

JRA

[RGA]

Prima Luna is all made in China just to make sure people are clear.

[Feanor]

Rotel is obviously a step above Marantz and Denon lines offered here in US. Their reference lines are very good. Any ways, Rotel 1062 will be a nice integrated for you, but if you are still interested in tubes, you would want to consider used Primalune over Jolida. ASL and Dared products are just rebadget chinese products with advertising. Used Primaluna Prologue 1 or 2 are listed for under $1k. At around this price range, you need to purchase equipments with highest quality parts. I think PrimaLuna excels at your price range.

You need to make sure you have access to tube replacements. For that I would stay away from Vincent. Also, Vincent like others are just rebadged products. I would stay away.....

JRA

Vincent says -- or at least implies -- that its products are designed in Germany. So believing that, their situation isn't necessarily diffferent to PrimaLuna's. ASL and Dared are indeed "rebadged" products, that is, designed as well as built in China.

There are numerous degrees of Chinese participation in production. As examples, (with degrees in between):

• Designed by a non-Chinese company and built in a Chinese factory owned and fully controlled by the foreign company.
• Designed abroad and built in China with on-site supervision and quality control by the foreign company.
• Designed abroad and built in China, usually with some quality control.
• Partly or entirely designed in China according to a foreign company's specifications, with or without any quality control.
• Entirely design and built in China with the final product being "rebadged" for a foreign distributor
• Entirely a Chinese product under a Chinese brand sold and, if you're luckly serviced, by foreign distributor in the foreign country.
• Entirely Chinese sold via Internet and shipped from there. Any service you get is strictly a bonus.

The recent TAS articles on the Chinese audio industry make it clear that it is very common practice in that country for contract producers and subcontractors to substitute cheap or counterfeit parts for specified parts.

[RGA]

Being made in China is not a death sentence for the product but IMO it is not helping the the world economy or other social issues.

The reality is that even companies who do not make stuff in China, like Audio Note, that does not mean that parts from suppliers are not made in China.

ASL is made by Joseph Lau - A Chinese fellow - owns and operates his company and hires local workers - his NA distributor is Divergent, A Canadian company. B&W is a rich company now building or has built a manufacturing plant in China - (one of the rags out now has an article on this). They can now line up a bunch of dirt cheap labour to sit in chairs all day(much longer days and for far less money) to put together boards etc and keep their costs down (though the speaker prices will remain high or higher to increase profit margins - after all those full colour glossy catalogs they give to customers for free and all that advertising costs money).

Ultimately it comes down to quality control if all you care about is the actual product and none of the social issues around supporting Chinese operations. If the QC is good then it doesn't matter if it's made in China or England or Canada. Indeed the workmanship may actually be better in China because a bad job done by an employee there could mean being instantly sacked or taken in the back and beaten or raped. Certainly more of an incentive than the Brit or Canadian who has seniority in a Union can be a total lazy slack ass that you have to run through endless paperwork to try and sack. And since putting the boards together is not rocket science you don't really need a master craftsman for most of it.

[basite]

Vincent says -- or at least implies -- that its products are designed in Germany. So believing that, their situation isn't necessarily diffferent to PrimaLuna's. ASL and Dared are indeed "rebadged" products, that is, designed as well as built in China.

vincent is a special one

it's a chinese brand, which designs its products in germany (by who is unknown, could be any german...), under chinese guidelines (which include the budget, and other guidelines), and is then built in china, in asia, vincent goes under a different name, and they have more products there...

so since the budget for vincent gear is held low, the designers tend to copy alot from brands like classe, mark levinson, .... Unfortunately, just copying, and using cheaper parts & technology doesn't make it the same product...


jolida & primaluna, are not chinese brands, (primaluna is dutch), and are designed here, and are built there under strong supervision. Chinese brands & manufacturers tend to change alot and often, small things like 'what would happen if we place that knob over there...', so production quality is lower. With strong supervision, those things don't really happen...

Look at Rotel, and Classe too i think, both built in china...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[bobsticks]

Ultimately it comes down to quality control if all you care about is the actual product and none of the social issues around supporting Chinese operations. If the QC is good then it doesn't matter if it's made in China or England or Canada. Indeed the workmanship may actually be better in China because a bad job done by an employee there could mean being instantly sacked or taken in the back and beaten or raped. Certainly more of an incentive than the Brit or Canadian who has seniority in a Union can be a total lazy slack ass that you have to run through endless paperwork to try and sack. And since putting the boards together is not rocket science you don't really need a master craftsman for most of it.

Thank you.


FWIW, Joilda makes some nice preamps.

[Bigmoney]

Hey just thought I would let everyone know I decided on the audio refinement complete integrated. Seems like a good compromise for warm sound in an SS design and I got it for 500 off the gon. I am just a little worried it wont be able to drive my speakers 88db, but Ill keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for allt he help. Ill be sure to keep you posted on my reaction to this amp

[Ajani]

Hey just thought I would let everyone know I decided on the audio refinement complete integrated. Seems like a good compromise for warm sound in an SS design and I got it for 500 off the gon. I am just a little worried it wont be able to drive my speakers 88db, but Ill keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for allt he help. Ill be sure to keep you posted on my reaction to this amp

Congratulations on the new purchase! I've heard the Audio Refinement Complete driving a pair of Monitor Audio Gold Series 20 speakers and was very impressed. Hopefully the AR will also sound good with the B&W's.

[Bigmoney]

Thanks so much. I have been thinking about getting the matching cd player to pair with the integrated, but I haven't heard as much about the cdp as I have the amp. The amp gets rave reviews from everyone but the cdp seems to have less buzz, I figured though it should match syngergistically considering they are made to be paired together. Any word on the audio refinement complete cd player????

[RGA]

I'm a big synergy buff but in this case I would look elsewhere. You have a great amp for a great price - the Complete is $1500 new and was one of the better amps under $2k around.

Their CD players are a little bland - not bad but forgettable. On the other hand if you can get it for the same kind of price it's still likely better than any $500 CD player.

Most CD players under $1k sound pretty much alike so try and get one that has a good solid transport mechanism which will allow you to upgrade to an external DAC while still having a good transport. That is what I did - my CD player was about $800 but it has a well above average transport mechanism. It's 12 years old so getting a well built machine is a good idea because it could take you some years to buy a good external DAC.

Unfortunately the replacement Cambridge units aren't as good (though they have a $1500 new one which might be). Something like the Star Trek designed Rega Saturn might be worth a look - they apparently have well above average transports and if you like Star Trek you'll have the look too. http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Saturn.htm

[Bigmoney]

RGA, I am using a marantz dv 7600 currently as a universal player, wouldn't logic dictate that I keep my current player and get a nice dac for rebook cds for three reasons.

1. I have always heard most players under a grand have very similar quality transports, therefore my marantz at 900 bucks new should have an adequate transport. I question whether selling my player will yield much benefit, just to be used as a transport. I have heard many say that even cheap dvd players serve as adequate transports, and mine is not a walmart special.

2. If I keep the marantz I retain the SACD and DVA playback along with a quality dvd player.

3. Finally, I presume the cost of another player to be used as a transport would be greater than what I can sell my marantz for on the gon. The extra money to buy another player to be used as a transport, may very well be better spent towards the DAC.

Your suggestion does warrant consideration because most likely in buying a better player I could achieve substantially better performance over my marantz dvd in the meantime before buying a dac down the road. However, let me just mention I recall hearing once on another forum that money is better spent on a quality player, rather than attaching a nice dac to a mediocre player. My one caveat about an external dac, is that it only makes sense that you pay more for an outboard dac than a dac within a component. My theory is that a company can mark an external dac up more since it is its own entity with its own box and outlets and power supply. Furthermore, it would make sense to me that a quality player with a quality DAC, transport, and other variables effecting performance built into one box would yield for a much higher performance/cost ratio.

[blackraven]

I disagree that most sub 1k CDP's sound alike. I've had the Marantz 8001, the Cambridge Audio 740c and the Music Hall CD25.2 and have heard the Rega Apollo. They all have a noticably different sound, with the Marantz being the most different and warmest sounding.

The Rega Apollo was more foward and the Music Hall very laid back and very transparent.

The 740c was the most detailed

[RGA]

Bigmoney

External DACs are often superior though for the very reasons you list - separate power supply.

I agree with you on not getting rid of your current player - you'd take too big a loss and it's probably not worth it. BlackRaven is correct that the cd players he mention sound different but not enough to warrant the money - and different doesn't mean better.

I would suggest the Audio Note DAC kit 2.1 as a very serious upgrade to just about any CD player on the market. They charge $200 to build it for you. They're some of the best out there and the best I have so far heard - I'll be buying one myself. If you can use a soldering iron you can build it yourself. The 1.1 is considered a bit of a classic now and they are $799 the 2.1 starts at $1299.00 and goes to $1999.00. The latter is the one I will likely get - a year off though. You have to check with them first because these DACs do not work with all SS amps and transports but if they do it would make more of an upgrade than any $2k cd player. http://www.audionotekits.com/dac2_1.html

The finished production version is considerably more expensive http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazin...tedac21sig.htm

Downside is that it's big - almost the size of those 400 disc changers

Good luck to you.