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  1. #1
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Into the dark abyss I go again....

    I'm beginning to toy with the idea of replacing my Adcom GTP-500 preamp. The amp is good (when it works) but it has this nasty problem of sometimes having the right channel fade out; and/or bass response just dies. I think I've traced the problem to this my pre, so I'm trying to think about what I want to look for in an preamp.


    I'm really thinking about a tube preamp. This is because, I want the preamp to improve the following on my system:


    -- Dynamics: I hear tube really improve on micro and macro dynamics, correct?

    -- Make it More Musical: I have no idea what this means. I hear you guys using this term as the highest praise that a component can have. I hear thinks like:
    * Tubes create music; transistors reproduce it.
    * Tubes bring music to life.
    * etc.

    * All these terms sound great and make me want tubes in my system, but I'm not quite sure what it means. But if all you audiophiles are into tubes, it must be a good thing. Comments?


    -- I'd love to have a remote. I'm so sick of getting up and down to adjust the volume.


    Besides these above things, I don't even know what questions to ask. Any help would be greatly appreciated to the above questions and to other questions such as:


    -- I am right in looking into a tube preamp (correct?)
    -- I read the debates here about tubes versus non-tubes and I'm confused.
    -- Is it true that SS will sound more precise, but tubes will sound more 'life-like'?


    Thanks,
    Stan
    Last edited by manlystanley; 08-19-2010 at 08:40 AM.
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  2. #2
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    IMO a tube preamp is the way to go. They may not be as outright accurate as SS preamp but they are much more musical. The brightness you spoke of in another post will be mostly gone with a tube preamp. This doesn't mean the sound is rolled off or dull in any way. You have to hear it for yourself to understand.

    As for imaging; a good SS preamp will give good imaging with a nice deep sound stage (recording dependant). A tube preamp seems to flesh out the imaging.
    IE: SS preamps seem to have what I call the cardboard effect. The imaging and depth is there but the performers sound like flat cardboard cutouts. Tube preamps fill those cutouts up and make them sound three dimensional. You have to hear it for yourself. Some claim that I'm blowing smoke. They usually don't have their gear in an optimum setup. The room treatments you have and the obvious care you've taken with equipment setup should make it easy for you to hear what I'm trying to describe.

    I'm willing to bet your significant other will prefer the sound of tubes. If you can get her to do some critical listening her opinions will be very insightful. As always it's your ears and hers that must be satisfied.

    I thought the GTP-500 was remote controllable. I just checked the Adcom site. The GTP-500 came with the RC-500 remote transmitter.
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  3. #3
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Go for it Stan! Once you go tubes you will never look back. Tubes also allow you to fine tune the sound with tube rolling.

    For me, tubes gave my system more transparency, wider sound stage, more warmth (depending upon the tubes I used, and note that not all the tubes that I tried sounded good but each had their own unique sound) depth and presence to the music.
    The music sounded more natural and palpable. Any hint of digital edge was removed (even with my SS amp but I'm also using a tube DAC which may be another option for you instead of a preamp. The Tube DAC probably made the most impact in sound for me.).
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
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  4. #4
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Stan, if you are on the fence about a tube preamp, try a Van Alstine T-8 or hybrid Preamp. Frank has a 30 day no questions asked return policy. You could try one just to see how it sounds and send it back even if you have no plans on buying one right now.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  5. #5
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    If no dealers have tube preamps for you to listen to www.acousticsounds.com have some and offer the 30 return, www.amusicdirect.com has some but I think most of theirs are pretty expensive gear like BAT. They will allow for a return but not as long as 30 days, keep an eye on www.spearitsound.com for "demo/used/close-out". I bought my CJ from them and they are a class act.

    I think JoeE explained what to expect about as good as can be said just keep in mind it's general. Tube gear varies in sound the same as solid state so there are some stereotypical tube gear out there with bluming bottom end and rolled off highs. There is also some excellent tube gear as well. You may want to also consider solid state gear with a rep for musicality like Musical Fidelity, can't think right off of others.

  6. #6
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    stan - I don't want to derail your thread - but I'm going to bring up your question about musicality - and if it gets too far off topic than I'll pull the post and make new thread.

    But on your choice - demo demo demo demo demo - then choose. There is nothing like trying out a lot of different options and finding what works best. If you don't have the ability to demo a pre in your home - and you are looking for a warmer sound - than I'd say go with tube also. I think Jolida has some good priced tube pre amps with remote.

    But - to get to your questions about musicality - here is my answer to your question - and it is only an educated guess.

    I think the key is data and component quality. Lets assume the quality of the component are all on a greater than average level. So than it is data. What do I mean by data. I mean the amount of information being processed from the source by the system. As in, 24bit audio has more information than 16bit, analog has not stepping at all and is 100% information.

    Why do I think information is important? I think the more information presented to the listener the more 'musical' a system will sound. Well what does musical mean. My best guess, they way I use it, the music just sounds more real. Plan and simple. It just sounds like the real thing is in your room.

    But let me not digress from information and how this is related to tube vs. SS as well at 16bit digital to analog or even upsampling 16bit to 24bit or just 24bit.

    I think the more information presented in a stereo sound field the easier it is for our ears to space the sound on some sort of stage. Both in depth and in stereo imaging. Think about it, a mono peace of music sounds like it all right there on 1 plain. And a mono track has less information than a stereo track. Now you can start to place things in a stereo field, left and right, center, just slightly right and so on. Now, that is pretty easy to do with a 16bit audio, but when you start to add more information, as in 24bit audio or analog, your brain can start to place things in a front and back, depth, stage imaging. There are more clues being presented to the brain for the brain to create some sort of image as to where that sound is originating from.

    So how does this related to tubes and 16bit audio and why a tube amp might make the music sound more real. Well as you know the amplification technique of a tubes converts a stepped digital signal to a less stepped and more solid wave like formation. Through this amplification more data is added. Now, this data might not be the 'right' or 'perfect' data that SS will give to audio, by just amplifying the stepped data, but it might make it sound more musical and real to the human ear.

    Just as a vinyl recording played against a 16bit CD will have significantly larger staging and detail. It is a solid wave being amplified, not a stepped wave form where information is missing.

    Anyways - that is my speculation as to musicality and such.

    Good luck w/ your search and demo as much stuff as you can, if you can.

  7. #7
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Stan I own an EICO HF 85. Nothing can touch the smoothness of it's high gain stage...nothing. Like Joe said, you must hear it to full understand.

    I think a tube pre would be a great idea for you. Yet another component to help round out your great system, and have some fun with too.

  8. #8
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Funny thing is I've got a tube preamp but am thinking of once again trying solid state. I guess there are two reasons.

    First, perhaps the most practical: I often listen for short periods of time, under a hour, and it takes at 0-15 minutes at least for the tube preamp to warm up and sound right. This despite that my preamp keeps the tubes slightly warm in stand-by mode.

    Secondly, with my new Class D Audio amp, I'm rescovering the joy of maximally resolved, transparent, and harmonically accurate sound. (Read about that HERE.) Would my system be even more like that with a fine sold state amp? Might be fun to find out.

    I'm into DIY these days and I've been looking at this preamp board from Elliott Sound Products (ESP) ... see HERE. That needs a power supply that I could also get from ESP, and I might add his balanced line transmitter to preserve balance out put to my power amp.

    I'd start with manual volume but I've I like the sound, I might add a remote control device and case from DIY Gene on eBay, see HERE.

    BTW, DIY Gene selles compete preamp kits. He has quite a few tube variations and a couple of solid state --- basically rip-offs of classic designs but what the heck -- see the list HERE. Kits include case and remote control and most are in the $300-400 range, and if your diffident about DIY, he'll assemble the kit for you for $80 ... WOW

  9. #9
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Everyone: I've read all your posts for some time about the value of tubes, and I'd be excited to fully understand the phrase "when you hear it you'll understand".

    I'm very intrigued about the do it yourself reference JADIS pre-amplifiers:

    Jadis JP-200 /LS-35C: http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Pre-amp...efaultDomain_0

    Jadis JP-200 /LS-9C http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Tube-Pr...efaultDomain_0

    Here is someone who is building one from scratch:

    http://akula98.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/jp200-project/

    Has anyone ever heard one of DIY Gene's creations?


    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Last edited by manlystanley; 08-20-2010 at 08:38 AM.
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  10. #10
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Here's someone who built the JP200 and seems very pleased:

    http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...enflup&11&4#11

    Also a entire site dedicated to DIY audio: http://diyaudioprojects.com/


    Also, here's just the board and components for $147: http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=996 and shipping is $15.
    Last edited by manlystanley; 08-20-2010 at 12:12 PM.
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  11. #11
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlystanley
    Everyone: I've read all your posts for some time about the value of tubes, and I'd be excited to fully understand the phrase "when you hear it you'll understand".

    I'm very intrigued about the do it yourself reference JADIS pre-amplifiers:

    Jadis JP-200 /LS-35C: http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Pre-amp...efaultDomain_0

    Jadis JP-200 /LS-9C http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Tube-Pr...efaultDomain_0

    Here is someone who is building one from scratch:

    http://akula98.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/jp200-project/

    Has anyone ever heard one of DIY Gene's creations?


    Best Regards,
    Stan
    DIY Gene gets quite few hits searching at DiyAudio, check it out HERE. He catches some flack there for supposedly ripping of Nelson Pass designs, (not the preamps), but then again Pass Labs has a forum there so he might have stronger the typical advocates at DiyAudio.

    He certainly has a good eBay reputation how ever much that counts; it might be significant given the complex products he sells. Don't forget to check out the cases & remote control kits; select models come with the complete preamp kits as well as sold separately. They look like very good stuff in themselves.

    Sweet job that builder in you link did. Of course, he bought the raw board and added the parts himself -- much bigger project than just bolting together one of the complete kits.

  12. #12
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor

    Sweet job that builder in you link did. Of course, he bought the raw board and added the parts himself -- much bigger project than just bolting together one of the complete kits.
    I'm thinking from the above site that had the raw boards and tubes ($165 with shipping), that I could build the JP200 for around $300. But you might be right, getting the kit is the easy way to go.

    Edit: Tehn I'm looking at all the JADIS kits on Ebay: http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_f...IS+&_sacat=293

    There are a huge number! It will take a while to figure out which ones best.

    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Last edited by manlystanley; 08-20-2010 at 05:28 PM.
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  13. #13
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    Feanore, it would be interesting to hear your impressions if you get a solid state preamp for comparison. I believe I saw a Bryston passive preamp on Audiogon. I was looking for something else at the time so I can't be positive but from the title that was my impression.

    I've read things on the internet saying Jadis reliability leaves much to be desired. Could be building it yourself may relieve some of that.

  14. #14
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    The idea of building a Levinson or Jadis clone is very enticing. Those kits look like a really good deal. The casework is especially nice.

    One caveat; am I the only one who looked at the shipping charges?
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
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  15. #15
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    The idea of building a Levinson or Jadis clone is very enticing.Those kits look like a really good deal. The casework is especially nice.

    One caveat; am I the only one who looked at the shipping charges?
    Nope!

    Feanor, I bought my Hybrid preamp over the full tube preamp because it gave me the tube sound I was looking for and the level of detail and resolution of a solid state pre. And I can change the sound to be more tubey by changing tubes. The same goes for my Hybrid DAC.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  16. #16
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    IMO a tube preamp is the way to go. They may not be as outright accurate as SS preamp but they are much more musical. The brightness you spoke of in another post will be mostly gone with a tube preamp. This doesn't mean the sound is rolled off or dull in any way. You have to hear it for yourself to understand.
    You have hit it on the head!

    This is what I try to explain to people about Marantz gear.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlystanley
    I'm thinking from the above site that had the raw boards and tubes ($165 with shipping), that I could build the JP200 for around $300. But you might be right, getting the kit is the easy way to go.

    Edit: Tehn I'm looking at all the JADIS kits on Ebay: http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_f...IS+&_sacat=293

    There are a huge number! It will take a while to figure out which ones best.

    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Yeah, there are serveral that seem worth a careful look:
    I like that DIY Gene sells complete kits with nice cases; so does diyaudiokit though they seems pricier and/or not as nice. Otherwise it's pretty hard to evaluate, e.g., the quality of the parts or accompanying documentation.

    If you want to build from a bare board, a couple sell those and I think a couple sell boards plus the components. I suspect buying the board + components is cheaper than buying just the board, then ordering parts from say, Newark, or Mouser. I'd guess this is true even if you want to upgrade to a few super quality parts from say, Parts ConneXion.

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    Nope!

    Feanor, I bought my Hybrid preamp over the full tube preamp because it gave me the tube sound I was looking for and the level of detail and resolution of a solid state pre. And I can change the sound to be more tubey by changing tubes. The same goes for my Hybrid DAC.
    Tube rolling can subtly modify the sound of a tube pre as I discovered with my Sonic Frontiers, also the SF has an extremely resolved sound, so I have no grounds for complaint. A DIY s/s preamp would primarily a hobby undertaking.

    Tubes are appealing nonetheless, e.g. manlystanley's interest in the JADIS options. Personally I'm tempted to try a classic Marantz 7. I could get a complete kit from, e.g. DIY Gene for US$295, see HERE, or populated or bare board, or board plus parts from various eBay supplier. You would expect a pre from Frank Van Alstine to be better, but then an AvaStar is $2100 with remote control.
    Last edited by Feanor; 08-21-2010 at 11:03 AM.

  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Feanore, it would be interesting to hear your impressions if you get a solid state preamp for comparison. I believe I saw a Bryston passive preamp on Audiogon. I was looking for something else at the time so I can't be positive but from the title that was my impression.
    ...
    Actually it's the building of it as much as the result that appeals to me.

    The warm-up of my tube preamp is a minor irritation though. Mind you, it's still listenable when I go from Stand-by to On, so again, it's mainly the fun of building one.

  20. #20
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    I admire those who have the ability to do DIY.

    Frenchmon, can you post the link to Musicl Design? That preamp is about $1495.00 but can be ordered with a choice of five different boards to tailor sound, might be an option for Stan if not wanting to build. Plus, it would give you the option of changing the sound as the boards can be easily swapped out by the user. You could essentually have one preamp and with the boards achieve more than one sonic signature.

  21. #21
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Feanor,
    Your the man! Great information. I'm going to start sniffing around DIYaudio and see what I can find. I'd love to talk to multiple people who have actually done DIY preamps and who can give solid feedback.
    I personally like the option of doing a custom case with the tubes on top. For no other reason that (to my tastes) it really looks cool.
    So, are you satisfied with your power amp? Is it as good as the one that you had before?

    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  22. #22
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Feanor,
    You're the man! Great information. I'm going to start sniffing around DIYaudio and see what I can find. I'd love to talk to multiple people who have actually done DIY preamps and who can give solid feedback.
    I personally like the option of doing a custom case with the tubes on top. For no other reason that (to my tastes) it really looks cool.
    So, are you satisfied with your power amp? Is it as good as the one that you had before?

    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Last edited by manlystanley; 08-21-2010 at 09:55 AM.
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  23. #23
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I admire those who have the ability to do DIY.

    Frenchmon, can you post the link to Musicl Design? That preamp is about $1495.00 but can be ordered with a choice of five different boards to tailor sound, might be an option for Stan if not wanting to build. Plus, it would give you the option of changing the sound as the boards can be easily swapped out by the user. You could essentually have one preamp and with the boards achieve more than one sonic signature.
    Sure no problem MrP.

    MrP and I have seen the products in person and they look better than what is presented on the web. Sounded pretty good as well.

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_Cham.html

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/MUSDES_INTRO.html
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  24. #24
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Sure no problem MrP.

    MrP and I have seen the products in person and they look better than what is presented on the web. Sounded pretty good as well.

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/MC_Cham.html

    http://www.musicaldesign.com/MUSDES_INTRO.html

    Hello Frenchy and Mr. P,
    Thanks so much! I was looking for around the $700 price range. The kit's fit he bill, but I just wonder how good they sound??

    Best Regards,
    Stan
    Listening/Movie Room: ADCOM GTP-500, XPA-2, Denon 3930ci, Front: Jamo C809; Surround: Klipsch R-5650-S; Back: R-5650-S; Denon AVR-687,. Projector: Sharp XR-32X.

    Family Room: Denon avr-687, Denon CD player, Klipsch RB-5II

  25. #25
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    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    Thanks, Frenchmon.

    I was just thinking since you weren't sure of the sound having the ability to change it might be something you'd be interested in. If you are handy with the solder iron then a kit might be the way to go. I have no idea what to tell you to expect for sound. Keep in mind tube preamps will vary in sound character.

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