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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Class D or ICEpower amps

    Anyone else using them?

    I'm using four ICEpower modules in a bi-amp setup for my 3.6Rs. 1000ASP modules on the bass panels, 500ASP modules on the mid/treble (that's 1,000 wpc and 500 wpc respectively).

    I love these things. It's just amazing how much power you can get out of these little boxes that stay cool as a cucumber and barely draw any juice! And they sound awesome. The bass is just outrageous.

    You can get monoblocks amps with the 1000ASP for less than $1,400/pair now - that's just ridiculously good value for the money.

    I bet it won't be very long before these things are dominating the market - 5 years, 10 at most. There will always be some people who demand monstrously huge, hot amps, I guess, but for me, I just don't see the point anymore.
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  2. #2
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Here's a review of the Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocks, which use the 1000ASP modules:

    http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/eone2/1000.html
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  3. #3
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    OooKkk ... sounds good

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Here's a review of the Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocks, which use the 1000ASP modules:

    http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/eone2/1000.html

    So, Mike,

    Where do you get these monoblocks for $1400 per pair??? Last I check the Bel Canto ref1000's were $4000 per pair.

    I also seem to recall that B&O sells the ICEpower modules only to OEMs. Please disclose the provenance of you monoblocks.

  4. #4
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Both Geoffcin and I have PSA HCA2's. I think Nightflier has one too...along with just about every other piece of audio trinket ever created

    I said years ago that switching amps were the wave of the future. Dead silent backgrounds, highly efficient, startling transient response, deeeep bass, and they are load invariant (which is why they are perfect for your Maggies). Quad ESL's really like 'em too, from what I've read. There's a reason ARC, Jeff Rowland, and other bastions of the high end are utilizing switching topologies now. Even Panny's SR-XA series of switching AVR's have garnered raves for their sound and compact dimensions.

    SS will stay around, just like tubes, if for no other reason than the die hards that will proclaim that one technology is clearly superior to another. Personally, I've heard good and bad examples of every technology. Subjectively, it's impossible to state one approach as clearly superior to another. Objectively however, there is no way around the advantages of the switching amp's efficiency, ability to drive any load, lack of heat, and compact dimensions. Tubes and SS will never be able to match that, but I s'pose that could be part of their charm.

  5. #5
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Considering...

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Both Geoffcin and I have PSA HCA2's. I think Nightflier has one too...along with just about every other piece of audio trinket ever created

    I said years ago that switching amps were the wave of the future. Dead silent backgrounds, highly efficient, startling transient response, deeeep bass, and they are load invariant (which is why they are perfect for your Maggies). Quad ESL's really like 'em too, from what I've read. There's a reason ARC, Jeff Rowland, and other bastions of the high end are utilizing switching topologies now. Even Panny's SR-XA series of switching AVR's have garnered raves for their sound and compact dimensions.

    SS will stay around, just like tubes, if for no other reason than the die hards that will proclaim that one technology is clearly superior to another. Personally, I've heard good and bad examples of every technology. Subjectively, it's impossible to state one approach as clearly superior to another. Objectively however, there is no way around the advantages of the switching amp's efficiency, ability to drive any load, lack of heat, and compact dimensions. Tubes and SS will never be able to match that, but I s'pose that could be part of their charm.
    This is one reason I am really considering bagging my initial thought of getting a pair of Classe amps and perhaps going with the PS Audio amps...I might start with the trio and see how it goes.

  6. #6
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    I have to admit to being intrigued, Mike -- which brand do you own? It appears with a little bit of research that ICEpower is a licensed technology, and that many manufacturers use it. Are you using actual Bang and Olufsens, or one of the others?

    I actually recommended we get the Rotel 7-channel amplifier for the office system. We haven't gotten funding approved yet, and I'm afraid that project is dead, but still...I had high hopes...
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  7. #7
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Where do you get these monoblocks for $1400 per pair??? Last I check the Bel Canto ref1000's were $4000 per pair.
    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ran&1180051335

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I also seem to recall that B&O sells the ICEpower modules only to OEMs. Please disclose the provenance of you monoblocks.
    I got mine at Acoustic Reality.
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  8. #8
    Demoted to Low-Fi Carl Reid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Anyone else using them?

    I'm using four ICEpower modules in a bi-amp setup for my 3.6Rs. 1000ASP modules on the bass panels, 500ASP modules on the mid/treble (that's 1,000 wpc and 500 wpc respectively).

    I love these things. It's just amazing how much power you can get out of these little boxes that stay cool as a cucumber and barely draw any juice! And they sound awesome. The bass is just outrageous.

    You can get monoblocks amps with the 1000ASP for less than $1,400/pair now - that's just ridiculously good value for the money.

    I bet it won't be very long before these things are dominating the market - 5 years, 10 at most. There will always be some people who demand monstrously huge, hot amps, I guess, but for me, I just don't see the point anymore.
    I haven't tried them yet, though I've heard good things about them...

    Also Rotel and JVC are also using this technology.... and yeah I also expect these amps to dominate the market in 5 - 10 years.... though there will always be a niche market for hulking ugly monster amps (just see Flo's "Drool" thread for some Big Krell Amp)...

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Apparently even Flo likes the Class D amps, driving his Apogee Grands nonetheless:

    http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/006201.html
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  10. #10
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    I've got the Bel Canto S300 (150 watts/ch into 8 ohms) and it is marvelous. Seems a perfect match for my Spendor S5e's. I had been using tubes and ended up selling my Conrad Johnson MV60 (EL34 version) and haven't looked back. The BC has the beautifully smooth and liquid midrange of good tubes, but with tight bass and extended highs with no trace of harshness. However, I think what I like best is the excellent low-volume resolution. It is like taking a very light haze off a window pane. The haze, since it was uniform, really wasn't bothering me, but once gone the difference is quite noticeable.

  11. #11
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Any of these rated into 4 ohms?
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  12. #12
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    Any of these rated into 4 ohms?
    Yes, absolutely. The power ratings I quote above are into 4 ohms.
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  13. #13
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I have a PSA-HCA2 but to me its rubbish on anything else besides the bass, which it does well. I tried quite a few class D amps and none of them have the right tone, texture, decay or downward dynamic range. It is GOOD for the bass tough!
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Florian,

    Check out the 1000ASP ICEpower modules:

    http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2049.asp

    I haven't heard the HCA2, but the praise for these things is far greater. For one thing, they have a lot more power.
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  15. #15
    nightflier
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    Ha Ha

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Both Geoffcin and I have PSA HCA2's. I think Nightflier has one too...along with just about every other piece of audio trinket ever created
    Uh yeah, I think the correct statement is that I owned a lot of gear out there. Most of it replaced. I only keep what I like, and in the case of the HCA2, I am definitely keeping it.

    Now, I certainly don't have the kind of gear Florian has, but calling the HCA2 rubbish is a bit inaccurate. I bought mine for $700 refurbed from PSA and it has been a solid performer. New, I think they sold for $1400 and for that price, you can't buy that kind of performance. Sure there are better ICE amps out there, but they'll cost you quite a bit more.

    If you're looking for absolute power, speed, and "excellent low-volume resolution," check out Spectron. I bought the Model 1 amp, I think it was their first widely distributed unit, second-hand. While it was working, it was an incredible amp, but it is now in the shop up in Chatsworth. Nice thing, though is that they will still service it, even though it is that old.

    On the other hand, you can't ask PSA to service anything from "the troubled years;" they won't even dig out an old manual for you. Granted, they are good about their new stuff, but this has definitely put a damper on my initial enthusiasm with them. I have a pair of Delta monoblocks, which are still working fine, thank god, but PSA won't touch 'em with a 10-foot pole. My guess is that this experience by many former PSA enthusiasts is what has lowered the resale value of their gear, even their new stuff. If at the very least they would post old manuals & specs on their otherwise excellent website, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

    So, long story short, PSA makes incredibly well engineered gear, awesome bang for the buck, as long as it's not too old and doesn't stop banging. For anyone who's considering buying second-hand, that HCA2 is getting a little long in the tooth, and I wonder how much longer PSA will service it. So, no, it's not rubbish for the price, but that price comes at some risk. Caveat emptor.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Now, I certainly don't have the kind of gear Florian has, but calling the HCA2 rubbish is a bit inaccurate. I bought mine for $700 refurbed from PSA and it has been a solid performer. New, I think they sold for $1400 and for that price, you can't buy that kind of performance. Sure there are better ICE amps out there, but they'll cost you quite a bit more.
    I think the HCA2 is an older version of the Class D technology, no? It looks like the GCA amps are using the new ICEpower stuff though:

    http://www.psaudio.com/products/gca_...s_overview.asp

    I'm guessing the GCA500 has the 1000ASP module.

    On price, see the link I posted above -- 1000ASP modules (both channels) in a box, for $1,375:

    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ran&1180051335

    That's just incredible. Look for the fancier high-end sellers of these things (Jeff Rowland, Bel Canto, etc) to start dropping their prices too.
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  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Product "differentiation"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ...
    On price, see the link I posted above -- 1000ASP modules (both channels) in a box, for $1,375:

    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ran&1180051335

    That's just incredible. Look for the fancier high-end sellers of these things (Jeff Rowland, Bel Canto, etc) to start dropping their prices too.
    Yes, I agree: there has got to be downward pressure. A 1000ASP module in a box is a 1000ASP module in a box, right??? On the other hand don't underestimate the ability of market-oriented enterprises to "differentiate" their products.

    "Custom built by to our specifications" is a favorite one. So if B&O is smart, (which is likely), they will encourage customers to prescribe, (or they will suggest to the customers), changes such as higher grade capacitors or the like, that might or might not improve performance. But regardless, the "custom" label will enable both B&O and the OEM to ask a higher price. Then too the box itself can be a standard cheap sheet metal project box, or it can be milled from a forged aluminium billet a la Rowland or Ayre. And then there's silver wire, silver on copper or gold on silver connectors, exotic antivibration measures, blah, blah, blah -- sucker bait all. And audiofools, as we know, are the world's biggest suckers for that kind of thing.

  18. #18
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    hmmm...
    although it seems to be very good, and stylish and everything else you want,
    I guess I'll never be a digital amp guy...

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  19. #19
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    I think the HCA2 is an older version of the Class D technology, no? It looks like the GCA amps are using the new ICEpower stuff though:

    http://www.psaudio.com/products/gca_...s_overview.asp
    Actually, Paul used ICEpower, he just renamed it SDAT. When he released the GCA's, he revealed it was same topology.

    As for the HCA2 being rubbish, I s'pose everyone has a right to their opinion. Flo was a huge Krell proponent for the longest time and I've always disliked the Krell sound so it's clear we have different tastes. To each their own.

    BTW, someone mentioned that B&O bought ICEpower from someone else and then licensed the technology. While the latter part is correct, I have always been under the understanding that B&O actually created it as well. This was surprising as I didn't think B&O had much of a R&D reputation. Anybody know?

  20. #20
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Actually, Paul used ICEpower, he just renamed it SDAT. When he released the GCA's, he revealed it was same topology.
    Interesting. Then it looks like the ICEpower modules themselves must have evolved substantially, according to PSA. For example:

    As discussed above, one of the classic problems with PWM power amplifiers is a low damping factor due to the requisite output filter. Damping factor is a means of measuring how well the power amp can control the loudspeaker. A damping factor of 100 to 200 is considered excellent.

    The first PWM amplifier we built, the HCA-2, had a damping factor (at low frequencies) of just under 100, a mighty feat in itself when you consider most PWM amplifiers are lucky to have damping factors above 25 or 30.

    The new GCA series power amplifiers, utilizing the analog power stage, has a damping factor in the thousands, a 10 times increase in control over the loudspeaker than any other amplifier on the market. When you hear the authority and control any of the three GCA amplifiers presents in your listening room you’ll be setback on your heels.
    http://www.psaudio.com/articles/sdat.asp
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  21. #21
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Actually, Paul used ICEpower, he just renamed it SDAT. When he released the GCA's, he revealed it was same topology.
    Are you sure about this? This thread suggests otherwise:

    Re: HCA-2 vs. eAR Two

    http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/ps...ages/3907.html

    This design is based on the "ICE" module of Class D amplifiers.

    The ICE module is designed and distributed by B and O. B and O is using this in their powered speakers. Go down to your local B and O dealer and listen to a pair of their speakers....you can hear the ICE module in that.

    We looked at this design and rejected it out of hand. We could not make it sound good under any circumstances. Perhaps these guys can....don't know.

    I do know we could not. Whatever we did to the Class D stage or the analog stage it just sounded bright and transistory....
    Kind of an ironic statement, given that they're certainly using them now...
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  22. #22
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    From PSA's Jan '05 newsletter:

    We never were digital
    Sometimes I think we try so hard to make a point that we lose sight of reality. Such is the case with SDAT, our acronym for the output stage of first the HCA-2 power amplifier and now the GC series of amplifiers. SDAT stands for Super Digital Amplifier Technology. The problem with this acronym is it is not correct: there’s nothing digital about the HCA-2 or the GC amplifiers. Nothing at all.

    I must admit that in spite of our engineering department’s cautions and warnings, I went ahead and used the erroneous acronym when we introduced the HCA-2 because I thought it might be easier for people to understand that this was something new; something revolutionary.

    Well, it’s time to set the record straight. We’re dropping the acronym SDAT because of its inaccuracies. Truth is, there’s nothing digital about anything in any of our power amps.

    Since the introduction of the HCA-2, which won the coveted Stereophile Class A recommended component award for power amps and graced the cover of Stereophile, people have labored under the misguided impression that the amp had a digital output stage when, in reality, it had a 100% analog output stage. My apologies for this misguided attempt at making the technology “easy” to understand.

    Our amps, from the HCA-2 to the new GC series are PWM amplifier output stages fed by a pure class A input stage. In the case of the GC Series the class A analog input stage is called a Gain Cell. A PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) stage, built the way we do, is 100% analog. There’s no conversion from analog to digital. Briefly, if we were using a digital output stage, we’d be converting the music into a series of numeric representations.

    In a PWM amplifier, the music is converted to a series of analog pulses of varying lengths in an analog comparison stage that measures the difference between the music and a linear triwave ramp, thus making the output stage extremely linear and efficient. In fact, a PWM analog output stage is far more linear than a standard class A or class AB output stage and certainly more efficient.

    In any case, we got so many questions at CES about our “digital” amplifiers that I thought it might be important to set the record straight. We don’t make digital amplifiers. Never have.


    As far as I know, there are only two topologies of switching amps currently in use: TriPath and ICEpower. BelCanto used to run TriPath but now uses ICE. We both know PSA runs ICEpower in the GC series, therefore it would seem that if he still insists on calling it SDAT, it would follow that the previous HCA was ICE as well. I remember reading an article that also stated such, although it's been so long I have no idea what magazine it was or when I read it.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    We both know PSA runs ICEpower in the GC series, therefore it would seem that if he still insists on calling it SDAT, it would follow that the previous HCA was ICE as well.
    I get the impression that the SDAT acronym doesn't really mean anything specific, and hence could apply to any of the Class D technologies.

    Seems to me that all these manufacturers are going to try very, very hard to make their products appear unique when the guts have literally become a widely available commodity. So PSA is going to hang a name like SDAT on whatever technology they're packaging, whether it's ICEpower, TriPath, or anything else that could possibly fit. (And I have the impression that there are other versions of Class D out there, but I could be wrong about that.)

    Certainly the specs between the HCA-2 and the GCA amps have changed, though, regardless of what the guts are made of.
    Last edited by Mike Anderson; 03-28-2007 at 04:57 PM.
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  24. #24
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    My LINN 5125 is Class D. I fell in love with this amp, it weighs 11 lbs. and rated at 5x125. It has "auto on", so it senses when a signal arrives at the input and turns itself on. I hooked this amp up and tucked it away on a shelf and forgot about it. I have only heard the 5125 with my Primare and driving Dynaudio, my impression is the bass lacks detail in certain areas, it sounds like the same type of bass my Velodyne produces,it is good for HT but I wouldn't want it for music. The highs are extended and the midrange is seductive, clear and detailed.

    T+A uses some type of digital power supply technology, they have incredible bass response, as well as overall great sound. These amps can be driven into protection where with the same load a Krell will continue to drive on. Maybe T+A is conservative with the protection to keep problems down.... Or maybe digital amps can't really drive difficult loads. I have had my 5125 loud, louder than I want to continue to listen and it hasn't gone into protection. There are definitely too many variables to stereotype.

    I haven't heard of the ICE until Mr. Anderson started talking about them. I wonder what, if any, difference there is between Class D and ICE. The area has shown great potential and it seems to really be in it's infancy. An amp with killer bass, highs and a tube like midrange, isn't that all of our dream?

    Panasonic uses some type of digital amp in their walkman and my daughter's batteries seem to last, maybe 5 times, as long as in a typical walkman.

  25. #25
    nightflier
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    Maybe PSA doesn't have the rights to use the ICEpower wording and has for legal reasons changed it to SDAT?

    Florian, can you elaborate on your dislike of the HCA-2? What are you comparing it to?

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