best budget integrated amp?

[RGA]

What did I say to make you think I thought tube was better man? If you can, kindly point it out to me please. Just for the record...I think both are good. Right now, ima enjoying a hybrid sound....slight warmer with punch. Shoot, who knows tomorrow I might want a cleaner sound, and I too will enjoy that. But kindly point out those quotes that gotcha bent out of shape.

Nah - Tubes are better all the way - just depends on the tube amp. Plenty of rubbish in both camps. The Shengya PM 150 is a tube hybrid monoblock - so it's got some SS in there but for the money - it is well executed and Class A for most of the duration at least. I like it a lot more than the SS amps I've had over the years including Arcam, Bryston, and my current Rotel power amp.

There are many sorts of distortions - THD is unimportant - and until people figure that out they're not going to get anywhere.

[frenchmon]

Nah - Tubes are better all the way

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?

[markw]

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?

From his recent posts here it's fairly obvious he either doesn't know the difference between the two or uses them interchangably to suit his needs and impress the unknowing.

[RGA]

Is that based on just a objective fact? Subjective? Or both?

First the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode - that is an objective fact - every other design and all designs using feedback skew the timing of a system and it can't be fixed. There are Solid State Single Ended no feedback amplfiers - like the A21a which you can make the case falls into this camp - but it's still not the same - not quite and that not quite can be heard - nevertheless it's one of the closest you can get without having a tube so it's actually a nice compromise since tubes to me are a pain in the ass. A necessary evil.


The problem with feedback amplifiers:

"all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion."

There have been several blind level matched tests done to show that when people are not listening and judging tube amps unfairly due to their preconceived biases (like the folks who say SS measures better so it will sound better) when that bias is removed and all they can do is use their own two ears - they ALWAYS choose the no feedback amplifier - whether a no feedback tube amplifier over SS or a No feedback amplifier like the Sugden A21a over any and all high negative feedback amplfiers "regardless of price."

In the tests that have been down the no feedback aspect is a big key but as no feedback tube also beats SS then at the very least the tubes are not having a negative impact to the result even if the main quality being chosen is a lack of feedback. What I have not seen is a test between the Sugden SS no feedback amp versus a tube no feedback amplfier to determine if the tube aspect would win or not.

As for subjective - there is always a subjective element - there are people who like processed cheeze wiz over top grade Belgium or French hand turned from the best milk cheese available - that fact that people with horrible taste buds and general taste like crap more than real quality is still an opinion - there will always be people like that

[frenchmon]

First the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode - that is an objective fact - every other design and all designs using feedback skew the timing of a system and it can't be fixed. There are Solid State Single Ended no feedback amplfiers - like the A21a which you can make the case falls into this camp - but it's still not the same - not quite and that not quite can be heard - nevertheless it's one of the closest you can get without having a tube so it's actually a nice compromise since tubes to me are a pain in the ass. A necessary evil.


The problem with feedback amplifiers:

"all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion."

There have been several blind level matched tests done to show that when people are not listening and judging tube amps unfairly due to their preconceived biases (like the folks who say SS measures better so it will sound better) when that bias is removed and all they can do is use their own two ears - they ALWAYS choose the no feedback amplifier - whether a no feedback tube amplifier over SS or a No feedback amplifier like the Sugden A21a over any and all high negative feedback amplfiers "regardless of price."

In the tests that have been down the no feedback aspect is a big key but as no feedback tube also beats SS then at the very least the tubes are not having a negative impact to the result even if the main quality being chosen is a lack of feedback. What I have not seen is a test between the Sugden SS no feedback amp versus a tube no feedback amplfier to determine if the tube aspect would win or not.

As for subjective - there is always a subjective element - there are people who like processed cheeze wiz over top grade Belgium or French hand turned from the best milk cheese available - that fact that people with horrible taste buds and general taste like crap more than real quality is still an opinion - there will always be people like that

When I buy gear...the first thing I want to know is does it sound good to me in my sysytem....the second is whats its history with reliability....the third is how much does it cost. Thats it!

Thanks for answering my question RGA but I could care less about an amp being " the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode" or such other things that don't mean a hill of beans to me...no offense RGA...and I respect your opinions and understandings in these matters, but I don't share your sentiments about it.

...frenchmon---

[RGA]

When I buy gear...the first thing I want to know is does it sound good to me in my sysytem....the second is whats its history with reliability....the third is how much does it cost. Thats it!

Thanks for answering my question RGA but I could care less about an amp being " the only truly linear amplifiers is the single ended triode" or such other things that don't mean a hill of beans to me...no offense RGA...and I respect your opinions and understandings in these matters, but I don't share your sentiments about it.

...frenchmon---

Frenchmon

Thanks for reminding me of that fact. The problem is audio is an experiential thing. When you try to rip that down into words it falls apart. You ask my why I like the sound of AN - what can I really say? I am a science first guy - so when I listen to something that handedly destroys most stuff when actually listening to it I am in the chartered territory of Jehovah Witness that comes to my door trying to tell me they know the "truth." And it's entirely not the side of the fence I like being on.

The fact is an AN complete system is a difficult proposition to make the case for. It's very easy to dismiss. It's bad enough to be in the camp of vinyl or SET - you can make measurement arguments for SET - there is possibly enough measurement merit with regards to feedback and low distortion at low level to get someone to at least try one. Vinyl - no chance - no matter how good the turntable measures a single pop or click (surface noise) will have people write it off entirely.

The speakers - are so-so in the measurement department - they're well balanced in the listening chair and if set-up correctly but in general measurements are never taken where anyone actually listens to them - I can argue that case and the more objective may consider trying them based on that - some will not because they believe all speakers should be measured the same way because that's the way they measure.

AN CD players - well without the analog and digital filter - they measure worse than any CD player on the market. Add all of those technologies together and frankly I can't really make the case for it. I am left to the only real argument of "it simply sounds more accurate, more realistic, and thus better, than alternatives that I have heard. Well gee - anyone can claim that kind of stuff. I can attempt to bend the English language all sorts of ways but at the end of the day the legs I have to stand on are very wobbly indeed. But I can't throw out my experience of it - when it embarrasses a top various combinations of Sim Audio/Audio Research/YBA/Classe/Mark Levinson/Bryston/Naim/Krell connected to Wilson/Magnepan/B&W/Paradigm/Genelec/Elac/.Martin Logan/ PMC/Meridian/Dynaudio/Quad/Sonus Faber/ etc then I have to go by experience - I simply can't chuck it out because the technology and the numbers makes me uncomfortable.

[markw]

Ummmm.....

[firebook23]

Ummmm.....

Ha! classic!