BAT Preamp

My BAT VK-51se preamp is on its way. It will arrive Tuesday.
Here are pic's of the exact preamp. I bought this one-

SOLD: BAT VK-51SE Tube Preamplifier

Here is the Stereophile review on it-

Balanced Audio Technology VK-51SE line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

The preamp is an older model and has been replaced by the better sounding 52se version. But I don't have an extra $10K to spend on it.

I have bought a new set of tubes, so there will be a break in period of about 25-30 hours.

I know you have to be excited.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

My BAT VK-51se preamp is on its way. It will arrive Tuesday.
Here are pic's of the exact preamp. I bought this one-

SOLD: BAT VK-51SE Tube Preamplifier

Here is the Stereophile review on it-

Balanced Audio Technology VK-51SE line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

The preamp is an older model and has been replaced by the better sounding 52se version. But I don't have an extra $10K to spend on it.

I have bought a new set of tubes, so there will be a break in period of about 25-30 hours.

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At last! The review are generally very positive and it sounds like something I personally could enjoy. But we breathlessly await your comments.

That thing looks serious! Yeah can't wait to hear your impressions.

Congrats mi man! Hope you enjoy it.

Well, I have a BAT in the house. I installed the tubes and have about 40 minutes of listening so far.

Here are my son's comments- "It sounds more high end than the Pass. It has a blacker back ground. The sound is more holographic and there is more spacing between the instruments. Everything sounds more life like. Things sound crisper. There is more detail. It is more musical and there is more front to back depth. It has a more forward sound. Treble is more prominent and better. The sound stage is not as wide. Bass does not have as much slam but is seems tighter. The midrange is deeper and better. It does not sound too tubey. Vocals sound like they are in the room with you"

Those were my son's impressions and I have to agree with everything. I might add that the sound is a little darker. There is a little less air than the Pass but I think that is because the music has more texture and depth. There is more emotion to the music. The attack on guitar and piano is much better, almost like my Parasound was but smoother. Guitar and piano sounds more natural as all the instruments do. Piano has much better decay as well. Vocals are much better and more realistic. The back ground is much quieter than the Pass and there is definitely more detail and resolution. In addition, there is much less sibilance on sibilant recordings.

Things that I don't like are the loss of bass slam and overall drop in bass. It is not thin or weak by any means, it is just that I got use to the bass with the Pass which sometimes could be over powering. Part of the problem is that there is a loss in gain with the BAT and part of it is due to the fact that I am using a single ended cable from my DAC with an XLR adapter, the same goes for my sub. I think that there is either a 3 or 6db loss in volume with the adapters. On the Pass I never had to turn the volume above 18 but on the BAT I have to turn it up to 80-105db with the max at 140. Even at 140 it does not sound as loud as the Pass. Unfortunately the BAT does not have a gain boost setting like the Pass. The only other things that I don't like are the slight loss in air and sound stage as well as the slightly more forward presentation. I will have to change the settings on my sub to compensate for the bass difference. I may have to bump the cross over up about 5hz and increase the volume a smidge.

I am sure some things will get better as the tubes break in. I was really planning on letting the tubes break in for about 10 hours before listening but you know how that goes. I will post updates as things begin to change. I won't make a decision until I have about 30-40 hours on the tubes.

In a previous post I said that I did not think that there would be a big improvement in the sound between the Pass and the BAT. I think that was an over statement as the 2 preamps are night and day different with the BAT having the huge edge in detail, resolution, musicality, emotion, texture and blackness to the background.

Wow! A really positive report. Sounds like congratulations are in order. But I think you are right that final conclusions will need to come after quite a few hours of tube break-in.

The drop in gain was predictable. As I previously pointed out, your system is effectively single-ended front to back since the BAT doesn't convert an input to true balanced.

Of all your impressions, viz. "the BAT having the huge edge in detail, resolution, musicality, emotion, texture and blackness to the background", the ones I'd have least expected are the "huge edge" in detail and resolution. It's a disappointing commentary on the solid state Pass from which I would have expected better.

Bill, don't get me wrong. The Pass is a great preamp, but the BAT is that much better. There is a $3K price difference. When new, the BAT cost $9K and the Pass $6K. The BAT at the time was one of the best preamps made. The 2 preamps have their strengths and weaknesses. I certainly was not expecting such a big improvement, especially the blacker background with more detail and resolution. Additionally, PRAT is better. The preamp is really fast. The Pass seems laid back in comparison. The weaker bass may be an issue for me in the long run. This morning the sound stage is starting to open up slightly after I let the tubes burn in for an additional 3 hours.

The BAT certainly resolves the issue of the midrange being a little dry and sterile as reviews of the Pass X250 have stated.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Bill, don't get me wrong. The Pass is a great preamp, but the BAT is that much better. There is a $3K price difference. When new, the BAT cost $9K and the Pass $6K. The BAT at the time was one of the best preamps made. The 2 preamps have their strengths and weaknesses. I certainly was not expecting such a big improvement, especially the blacker background with more detail and resolution. Additionally, PRAT is better. The preamp is really fast. The Pass seems laid back in comparison. The weaker bass may be an issue for me in the long run. This morning the sound stage is starting to open up slightly after I let the tubes burn in for an additional 3 hours.

The BAT certainly resolves the issue of the midrange being a little dry and sterile as reviews of the Pass X250 have stated.

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Sounds like a winner and I'd love to hear it.

Update, I fixed the bass and sound stage issue. The sound is also no longer forward. Treble is pushed back some. I swapped tubes in my DAC. I put in the stock Van Alstine Electro-Harmonix tubes and the sound stage opened up and the bass slam is back. The sound has more air too. These tubes did not match well with my Pass X1 or preivious set up with my A21 amp because it was too bright and sibilant.

I talked to BAT and they recommended using the high end Cardas XLR-RCA adapters at $150pr. They felt it would improve the sound further. Right now I am using $22pr XLR adapters that I found here in town.

Wow! Raven! Sounds like you got a winner! Congrats again man. But can you post some pics? Nothing like tubes man...nothing like tubes.

Thanks guys!

I will finally take pics of my system this weekend and post them. I was amazed at the inside of the BAT. Its built like a tank and there is a lot of expensive electronics in there. And 8 tubes which act as heat lamps (between the X250 and the BAT I can heat my house). The darn thing ways 45 pounds. I was worried about all the weight on my rack. 105lbs for the Pass amp, 55 pounds for my Adcom AVR and about 35 pounds of DAC, CD player, Tuner and BR player. I checked the rack specs and it can hold about 350lbs.

Frenchmon, I will never go back to a SS preamp at least while I have Magnepans. They really do sound better with tubes in the system.

Cool! I look forward to the pics.....and I feel ya on the tubes. Gots to have it!

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Cool! I look forward to the pics.....and I feel ya on the tubes. Gots to have it!

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Blackraven's enthusiasm as stocked my interest in a tube preamp and BAT in particular. My initial and only tube preamp was a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 which, unfortunately, seemed to lack most of the commonly extolled tube preamp virtues.

BR's model is permanently out of my price range but there are one or two, especially earlier models that I might consider at some juncture; maybe a VK-3i with remote but not phono.

Bill, I am convinced that Maggies sound the best with tubes in the system somewhere. I has to do with the midrange which has more depth, texture and bloom. Most reviews say that the sound better with tubes. My local Maggie dealer runs tube preamps with them.

Bill, there is a BAT VK-30 with the Super Pak upgrade for sale on Agon for $1900. I believe it is a step up from the 3i

Balanced Audio Technolgies VK-30 Tube Preamplifier w/ SUPER-PAK DEALER DEMO | Tube | Lake Grove, New York 11755 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

If you have any questions about it, give Geoff a call at BAT. He is very helpful.


Here is an update on the BAT, I sent this to Mr.P last night-


I am blown away by the BAT. It is simply the best preamp that I have heard. I sounds much better than the ARC LS27 which sells for $8700 or so. The shear power and grace of the BAT is astounding. It makes the X1 sound midfi. It has taken my system to new heights. Music is much more emotional and involving. The musicality, depth of the music is phenomenal. I have about 12 hours on the tubes and things are sounding better every hour. The sound stage has really opened up. The spacing between instruments is much better than the Pass. Everything sounds real and alive. The attack on piano and guitar is crisper and sounds like it should not smoothed over. The midrange is lush, liquid and deep. The preamp is dead quiet, more so than the Pass and on par with the ARC LS27. Treble sounds more natural with more air. The 2 preamps are really very different. With the Pass having a lighter more airy, transparent sound and a little more bass slam but not much more. The BAT is a faster sound with tighter bass and more control. I am amazed at how well the Magnepans sound. They really step up to the plate and respond accordingly to the level of electronics used in the system. All this and I am using a DAC that is a little long in the tooth but still sounds great. I think that you would like the sound, it has a hint of the tube sound and is just a smidge dark. The stereophile review from 2003 was dead on.

My son made this comment to me last night- The system now has that ultra high end feel and sound like the $110,000 system we heard 2 weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Bill, I am convinced that Maggies sound the best with tubes in the system somewhere. I has to do with the midrange which has more depth, texture and bloom. Most reviews say that the sound better with tubes. My local Maggie dealer runs tube preamps with them.

Here is an update on the BAT, I sent this to Mr.P last night-

I am blown away by the BAT. It is simply the best preamp that I have heard. I sounds much better than the ARC LS27 which sells for $8700 or so. The shear power and grace of the BAT is astounding. It makes the X1 sound midfi. It has taken my system to new heights. Music is much more emotional and involving. The musicality, depth of the music is phenomenal. I have about 12 hours on the tubes and things are sounding better every hour. The sound stage has really opened up. The spacing between instruments is much better than the Pass. Everything sounds real and alive. The attack on piano and guitar is crisper and sounds like it should not smoothed over. The midrange is lush, liquid and deep. The preamp is dead quiet, more so than the Pass and on par with the ARC LS27. Treble sounds more natural with more air. The 2 preamps are really very different. With the Pass having a lighter more airy, transparent sound and a little more bass slam but not much more. The BAT is a faster sound with tighter bass and more control. I am amazed at how well the Magnepans sound. They really step up to the plate and respond accordingly to the level of electronics used in the system. All this and I am using a DAC that is a little long in the tooth but still sounds great. I think that you would like the sound, it has a hint of the tube sound and is just a smidge dark. The stereophile review from 2003 was dead on.

My son made this comment to me last night- The system now has that ultra high end feel and sound like the $110,000 system we heard 2 weeks ago.

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This is great info and great articulation of the strengths of the BAT vs. the Pass. It's not a surprise to me that the differences are as great as they are -- especially in recent years I've discovered that even well-regarded components can sound significantly different from each other. (The exception so far is cables that, in the price ranges I've heard, sound pretty much all the same.)

That the Magneplanars can soak up all the good stuff you can throw at them seems right to me too -- which isn't to say that MG 3.7s wouldn't sound better than 1.6s.

As for a DAC, if I wanted great tube sound I might check out Audio Note. Their analog sections feature very high quality components. If one listens exclusively 16/44.1 resolution, an AN might do a fabulous job. I believe their 3.1 version is available with balanced output as an option; in kit form it's (relatively) affordable: see HERE. On the down side, their digital section reflects Peter Qvortrup's idiotic, anti-digital ideology, not to mention the obsolete AD1865 18 bit DAC and CS8414 S/PDIF receiver.

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

Attachment 9616

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Originally Posted by blackraven

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

Attachment 9616

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I'll bet you had some help lifting the Pass X250 to the top shelf. :smile5:

The AN 3.1 isn't fully balance but uses transformers to create the +/- signals -- which is probably the next best thing. The AN's AD1865 DAC is a "ladder"-type DAC vs. delta-sigma, which some people swear by. I wouldn't bother with their USB module which isn't asynchronous.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

I'll bet you had some help lifting the Pass X250 to the top shelf.

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Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.

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See my further AN comments editted in above.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.

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My shelve definitely weren't going to take the weigh even of my X150.5; I fabricated a little plinth to carry it on the floor.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...m_Nov_2013.jpg http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/...abs_X150_5.jpg

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Originally Posted by blackraven

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

Attachment 9616

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I was wondering about that also. I had a hard enough time getting my X150.5 onto the bottom shelf, plus my upper shelf is only rated for 40 lbs.

Jack, have you decided on what you are going to do about a preamp?

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Jack, have you decided on what you are going to do about a preamp?

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I'm in a holding pattern until some projects get done around the house. We're waiting to see how much money is left over. The rest of the fixtures for the guest bath remodel have come in and will be delivered on Tuesday, so we can get that project going. I've been laying low since I got my X150.5 while some of her things get done.

Jack, I am selling my X1 preamp for $2100 if you are interested.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Jack, I am selling my X1 preamp for $2100 if you are interested.

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I think that I would like to try some tubed pre first. Thanks for thinking of me and I'm sure it would be a step up from what I'm using now, but I'm at that age where if I'm going to do it, get what you want. You shouldn't have any trouble selling it, Pass Labs almost sell themselves.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

I think that I would like to try some tubed pre first. Thanks for thinking of me and I'm sure it would be a step up from what I'm using now, but I'm at that age where if I'm going to do it, get what you want. You shouldn't have any trouble selling it, Pass Labs almost sell themselves.

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I don't blame you. Thats why I finally decided to upgrade my entire system. I am not getting any younger. Thank god for good used gear. I could not afford this $hit new!
I figure the new cost of my 2 channel system is about $20K and I paid 1/2 that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackraven

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

Attachment 9616

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Now thats what im talking about! Bravo mi man...you've done good as they say! And I love what you have to say about the sound! Yeah man.....tubes is where its at as far as im concerned. Not to say SS amps arent great as well, but for my ears, tubes does it for me....I love the emotion and romance they offer.

As far as DAC...at that price point you should look around before spending on the PS Audio DAC....this DAC will be a much better buy with more options.

INVICTA | Resonessence

Amazing HiFi System with Resonessence Invicta DAC, Leema Acoustics and PMC - YouTube

I will be purchasing the CONCERO HD in a few months.

CONCERO | Resonessence

All the Resonessence Dacs have that Saber DAC which is outstanding.

So basically what Raven has is a hybrid system......cool.

Jack, I think you are doing it the right way, and you where at one point a tube man with the Jolida, so you know tubes and what they can offer. While you are getting your remodel done, you should spend some time doing research and scoping out which direction in tubed preamps you want to go?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

So basically what Raven has is a hybrid system......cool.

Jack, I think you are doing it the right way, and you where at one point a tube man with the Jolida, so you know tubes and what they can offer. While you are getting your remodel done, you should spend some time doing research and scoping out which direction in tubed preamps you want to go?

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I will be checking on various preamps while the construction is going on. BAT is about 20 minutes from my house and I also have my Audio Research dealer on the lookout for a nice used pre. You mentioned my old Jolida, it did have warmth and emotion but just lacked the low end thump that SS brings to the table.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Now thats what im talking about! Bravo mi man...you've done good as they say! And I love what you have to say about the sound! Yeah man.....tubes is where its at as far as im concerned. Not to say SS amps arent great as well, but for my ears, tubes does it for me....I love the emotion and romance they offer.

As far as DAC...at that price point you should look around before spending on the PS Audio DAC....this DAC will be a much better buy with more options.

INVICTA | Resonessence

Amazing HiFi System with Resonessence Invicta DAC, Leema Acoustics and PMC - YouTube

I will be purchasing the CONCERO HD in a few months.

CONCERO | Resonessence

All the Resonessence Dacs have that Saber DAC which is outstanding.

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The Resonessence INVICTA is a fascinating product. It's clearly more than simply a DAC, rather combines features of an AVR, media streamer, and preamp. The price is high although there is an argument for it considering its unique combo of features.

Here is a nice detailed user review of the Invicta, it looks interesting-

Review: Resonessence Labs Invicta - new high end DAC/amp/playback system

Here is another review-

Resonessence Labs Invicta DAC Review

And from what I gather from several readings about the Resonessence Labs, they are the company that designs and manufactures the Sabre DAC. They are one and the same ESS Technology, they know DAC chips and the Sabre DAC chips are the leaders in this technology.

Company | Resonessence


"Resonessence Labs is a trading name of BCIC Designs Inc. a company registered in British Columbia Canada. The principal founder of the company is Mark Mallinson, former Operations Director for ESS Technology. The company’s focus is to design and manufacture exceptional audio products. Our design engineers and Investors are industry audio experts at DAC and ADC design, and were front and center in the design of the ESS Audio DAC and ADC."

ESS Technology - Clearly the best


In about 2 months I will have one of their DAC's!

Raven wants a balanced DAC so that would rule out the Concero and push him up to the Invicta which I think is 4K. So the PS Audio might be the better fit for him. I've seen new units on Audiogon for $2200, now that's a deal.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

Raven wants a balanced DAC so that would rule out the Concero and push him up to the Invicta which I think is 4K. So the PS Audio might be the better fit for him. I've seen new units on Audiogon for $2200, now that's a deal.

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Spot on Jack! It looks like PS Audio is dumping the MKii DAC as they are coming out with a new DSD DAC the Direct Stream, thats why there are so many MKii's for 1/2 price on audiogon right now from the manufacturer. I wish I could buy one now but my wife would divorce me. Hmm!

I am also considering a used Bel Canto DAC 2.5 and 3.5 and there is a local dealer here considering that they are made here in Minneapolis.

PS Audio | Connected high-end home entertainment products


http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcan...Converter.html

The Direct Stream looks like a sweet unit. I'll be looking for the reviews on that, when it hits the market.

I was looking at the back of the Bel Canto, they sure don't want you to use an after market power cord do they.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Spot on Jack! It looks like PS Audio is dumping the MKii DAC as they are coming out with a new DSD DAC the Direct Stream, thats why there are so many MKii's for 1/2 price on audiogon right now from the manufacturer. I wish I could buy one now but my wife would divorce me. Hmm!

I am also considering a used Bel Canto DAC 2.5 and 3.5 and there is a local dealer here considering that they are made here in Minneapolis.

PS Audio | Connected high-end home entertainment products


Bel Canto Design -- DAC3.5VB mkII

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Those are sweet looking components, not doubt.

Personally I'd prioritized balance topology and a discrete analog section ahead of DSD and gee-whiz features. For much less money but meeting those criterion I'd check out Schiit Audio's Gungnir DAC, HERE.

The Gungnir is fully balanced and upgradable. I'm certainly very pleased with my Bifrost Uber which is, in effect, a single-ended version of the Gungnir. Quite conceivably Schiit will offer a DSD upgrade at some point although I personally think DSD is a scam -- there is absolutely no objective basis for considering DSD superior to PCM: quite the reverse actually.

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.

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Just a head's up here. The Loki would be fine for the occasional DSD file but it is essentially just a Modi with DSD. I owned the Modi for a while, and while the Modi, and I presume the similar Loki, was an easy listen, it didn't have anywhere near the transparency or air of the Bifrost much less the Bifrost Uber.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.

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Can you run two DAC's at the same time?