Attn: 300a, Rga

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

I think you misunderstood me. What I was asking wasn't your preference in replay or equipment choice, though that is always an interesting subject, what I wanted was for you to put your "SET post" into context by disclosing what specific brands, models and systems you had listened to reach that conclusion. Instead you just repeat what you prefer to SET without giving details about what you're actually comparing. In your previous post you did address this to some degree, "Wavelength, Bottlehead modified and straight, Midwest Audio, Wright etc." Like PP or SS, not all SET amps are alike. In fact, I've heard greater differences among SET amps than those previously mentioned. The first three SET amps [all excellant examples; Wavac & Cary] I heard left me underwhelmed, and were clearly bested by the VAC 30/30 [also excellant] using 300b in PP triode. I eventually purchased the VAC but after three years I found the PP topology troubling [or so I suspected]. Perhaps it was a combo of the output tube and the topology, regardless once I experienced lower-powered SETs I was convinced that this was what I was after. Though after spending extended time with the charming 2a3 I eventually found it's euphoric signature bothersome. So far, I've found musical bliss with 45 output tube, primarally because of it's transparency and neutrality. There are a number of other SET types [10 / 845 / 71] I've yet to sample, and perhaps the 45 will be surpassed. Still it has provided satisfaction longer than any other type. So it's not just SET, it's a bit more complex than that.

The "tractor" reference wasn't used as a descriptor for SS or PP, instead to illustrate a misapplication of technology. Just as a SET amp wouldn't be the best answer for dance music, driving inefficient speakers. Components do not function alone, instead .........work with their partnering components / room. Depending on those factors along with music type, volume levels, and your replay preference could influence performance and your perception of it. If you don't wish to get into details that is your right, but then we are left to guess on how your conclusions were derived.

MikE

[DMK]

Like PP or SS, not all SET amps are alike. In fact, I've heard greater differences among SET amps than those previously mentioned.
MikE

So true. I'm not really a SET triode aficionado as a rule. Most of the ones I've heard have all the problems you read about - soft bass, rolled off treble and a distinct euphonic character. However, the finest amp I've ever heard was a SET - the Wyetech Labs Topaz. The best way to describe it is a SS amp without the life sucked out of it. It had the best bass I've ever heard, an extended treble and all the midrange life I could want. It's also $8K. Not for me. Too much good music out there to spend that kind of money on an amp.

How's your Moth amp and the rest of your system coming along?

[300A]

I think you misunderstood me. What I was asking wasn't your preference in replay or equipment choice, though that is always an interesting subject, what I wanted was for you to put your "SET post" into context by disclosing what specific brands, models and systems you had listened to reach that conclusion. Instead you just repeat what you prefer to SET without giving details about what you're actually comparing. In your previous post you did address this to some degree, "Wavelength, Bottlehead modified and straight, Midwest Audio, Wright etc." Like PP or SS, not all SET amps are alike. In fact, I've heard greater differences among SET amps than those previously mentioned. The first three SET amps [all excellant examples; Wavac & Cary] I heard left me underwhelmed, and were clearly bested by the VAC 30/30 [also excellant] using 300b in PP triode. I eventually purchased the VAC but after three years I found the PP topology troubling [or so I suspected]. Perhaps it was a combo of the output tube and the topology, regardless once I experienced lower-powered SETs I was convinced that this was what I was after. Though after spending extended time with the charming 2a3 I eventually found it's euphoric signature bothersome. So far, I've found musical bliss with 45 output tube, primarally because of it's transparency and neutrality. There are a number of other SET types [10 / 845 / 71] I've yet to sample, and perhaps the 45 will be surpassed. Still it has provided satisfaction longer than any other type. So it's not just SET, it's a bit more complex than that.

The "tractor" reference wasn't used as a descriptor for SS or PP, instead to illustrate a misapplication of technology. Just as a SET amp wouldn't be the best answer for dance music, driving inefficient speakers. Components do not function alone, instead .........work with their partnering components / room. Depending on those factors along with music type, volume levels, and your replay preference could influence performance and your perception of it. If you don't wish to get into details that is your right, but then we are left to guess on how your conclusions were derived.

MikE

This is the same hype I have been hearing. That is what I have been hearing for years. I would think you would be thrilled to find better and better sounding components.

The better the audio system, being more neutral and accurate sounding, the better it should play all kinds and types of music, unless one wants to color the sound. That is a secondary benefit, if you will. One wouldn't have to compromise with his music.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

You call it "hype" I say it's wishful thinking on your part. I would rather accept the inherent limitations found in today's technology than pretend they don't exist.

MikE

[300A]

You call it "hype" I say it's wishful thinking on your part. I would rather accept the inherent limitations found in today's technology than pretend they don't exist.

MikE

Have you heard these amps? I think not. Why make such claims when you haven't heard these products?

SETs certainly have their own inherent problems as you should know.

SET output Z changes throughout the audio cycle, so the damping factor changes throughout the waveform whereas PP doesn't, if run deep class A.

Core saturation problems with DC current through the OPT and accompanying high distortion, especially at the bass frequencies.

Parafeed have their own problems with two sets of leakage inductance and capacitance problems to contend with if an inductor and smaller OPT are used.

Constantly changing signal levels cause the low frequency response to change.

Another extra capacitor is used to couple parafeed designs too.

SETs have higher harmonic distortions than PP, even at one watt, with neither using negative feedback.

Obviously these companies, and maybe more, are addressing inherent problems in PP design. Obviously, they are suceeding as they are bettering SETs now. Maybe the inherent problems in designing SS and PP aren't as severe, or limiting, as you thought.

Up to now I have been content with the midrange "magic", but now I am hearing better sounding components, plain and simple.

The world isn't going to stand still no matter how much you and I want it too. I am ready to move ahead. Are you?

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

I'm not interested in defending SET, I was only interested in getting you to defend your position. I don't see one "right" and another "wrong". Instead I know what I like and wish others well in finding what makes them happy. As for if I've heard the amps in question. No, nor have I heard every other amp known to man. My associations, like yours, are limited and based on those we choose. Instead of trumpeting one device while finding fault with another I've focused my attention on a "system approach".

As far as claims I've made. I only spoke of "inherent limitations", without naming names [or brands/product type]. You're not suggesting that the products you tout are free of such issues? And even if they were what would that matter given the problems with microphones and loudpeakers to name just two limiting factors that affect every partneering component/system. And looking beyond the devices themselves let's not forget the listener. After all isn't that what this is all about... discovering what technology best serves OUR music?

Personally, I enjoy conversations such as this, that is why I frequent these forums.

MikE

[RGA]

It sounds to me as though SETs require extremely careful system matching...perhaps a very bad sound can ensue of the system is not matched well.

The New Audio Note Soro had none of this soft bass or rolled off highs and it's not obscenely priced as some units from Cary. My dealer dumped Cary because he said it was "out of its league" against the much cheaper Soro.

I have very limited experience with SETS...as the Soro is the only one I can remember listening too for any period. Like other amp makers perhaps they are improving SET amps as well.

Now how the Audio Note Soro would do with a non Audio note speaker I don't know???? One reason Audio Note insists on delaer's setting up full AN systems is because they supposedly work best together. Ie; the speaker is geared with the SET in mind at the design level - no other speaker company I know of would do that.

But thet amp had no trouble with bass, or anything else. In fact I doubt most people would even guess it was a SET. Indeed, with the bass slam, and the fact that Audio Note hides the tubes, some might mistake it for a 200 watt Solid state job.

Soft bass IMO is a sign of a speaker that simply does not have enough power to move the woofer at the impedence dips that are going on. 3 watts anyway you slice it is 3 watts and if you push it the bass dissapears.

[300A]

Well, are we seeing games? No system is perfect, as I mentioned before, but when one sounds better in most areas, it is better and more neutral. And if you want your SET for a certain type of music, fine, but it sounds to me like you are admitting it is colored. The amps I mentioned sound more neutral and accurate, so less coloration and the ability to play more kinds of music.

I would think you would be thrilled if audio sound quality has advanced to a new level. But you seem to hate it without ever hearing it.

Are you being compensated in anyway for pushing philosophy or product? Remember your answer will be in writing.

By the way, look at all the horns and single drivers speakers response, 75hz is the cutoff point with expensive ones maybe to 50hz. Horns drop at 36db/octave, or down approx 36db at 37hz while single drivers drop about 12db per octave. How are you, RGA getting such deep bass?
By the way, SS and PP are just as critical in setup, matching, as SETs.
Maybe we didn't give as good a shake to these as we should have.