Attn: 300a, Rga

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

I'm not interested in defending SET, I was only interested in getting you to defend your position. I don't see one "right" and another "wrong". Instead I know what I like and wish others well in finding what makes them happy. As for if I've heard the amps in question. No, nor have I heard every other amp known to man. My associations, like yours, are limited and based on those we choose. Instead of trumpeting one device while finding fault with another I've focused my attention on a "system approach".

As far as claims I've made. I only spoke of "inherent limitations", without naming names [or brands/product type]. You're not suggesting that the products you tout are free of such issues? And even if they were what would that matter given the problems with microphones and loudpeakers to name just two limiting factors that affect every partneering component/system. And looking beyond the devices themselves let's not forget the listener. After all isn't that what this is all about... discovering what technology best serves OUR music?

Personally, I enjoy conversations such as this, that is why I frequent these forums.

MikE

[RGA]

It sounds to me as though SETs require extremely careful system matching...perhaps a very bad sound can ensue of the system is not matched well.

The New Audio Note Soro had none of this soft bass or rolled off highs and it's not obscenely priced as some units from Cary. My dealer dumped Cary because he said it was "out of its league" against the much cheaper Soro.

I have very limited experience with SETS...as the Soro is the only one I can remember listening too for any period. Like other amp makers perhaps they are improving SET amps as well.

Now how the Audio Note Soro would do with a non Audio note speaker I don't know???? One reason Audio Note insists on delaer's setting up full AN systems is because they supposedly work best together. Ie; the speaker is geared with the SET in mind at the design level - no other speaker company I know of would do that.

But thet amp had no trouble with bass, or anything else. In fact I doubt most people would even guess it was a SET. Indeed, with the bass slam, and the fact that Audio Note hides the tubes, some might mistake it for a 200 watt Solid state job.

Soft bass IMO is a sign of a speaker that simply does not have enough power to move the woofer at the impedence dips that are going on. 3 watts anyway you slice it is 3 watts and if you push it the bass dissapears.

[300A]

Well, are we seeing games? No system is perfect, as I mentioned before, but when one sounds better in most areas, it is better and more neutral. And if you want your SET for a certain type of music, fine, but it sounds to me like you are admitting it is colored. The amps I mentioned sound more neutral and accurate, so less coloration and the ability to play more kinds of music.

I would think you would be thrilled if audio sound quality has advanced to a new level. But you seem to hate it without ever hearing it.

Are you being compensated in anyway for pushing philosophy or product? Remember your answer will be in writing.

By the way, look at all the horns and single drivers speakers response, 75hz is the cutoff point with expensive ones maybe to 50hz. Horns drop at 36db/octave, or down approx 36db at 37hz while single drivers drop about 12db per octave. How are you, RGA getting such deep bass?
By the way, SS and PP are just as critical in setup, matching, as SETs.
Maybe we didn't give as good a shake to these as we should have.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

Remember your answer will be in writing

Yes, that is one benefit of forums such as this; our responses are visable for all to digest / review. Though I'm afraid it would appear YOU are the one with the agenda, and perhaps need to re-read my posts. In my replies, any such advances of SET or superiority over other topologies / systems were limited in application, not a universal truth. And any comments that could be construed as negative were not pointed at any one marque, model or product type, instead could be applicable for ALL products or systems. All I've stated is MY preference. Is that alone reason enough to draw suspicion? I realize that you identified specific models because I requested that information but at the same time you've taken every opportunity to drive home your position on SET vs "new stuff". That is what, in part, caused me to reply initially - my curiousity in what experiences and associations were the basis of this "philosophy".

And while I have managed to get you to disclose enough information to get a pretty good idea of where you're coming from, in the process all you've done is misinterpret or misrepresent my POV. Case in point, where did I say I "hated" this "new technology"? I didn't, instead I called into question the "inherent limitations" in ALL technology. And as for my respect of the current state of technology, regardless the limitations, I think it's just wonderful. We are blessed to have the quality, value and diversity of gear to choose. I've been involved in audio since the early 70's and just as time marches on so will advances in the SOTA. So while the limitations are not as pervasive they were they are still [sigh] with us. So, no I'm not ungrateful or belittling anyone or anything. I love the level of replay I enjoy and realize there is more than one way to achieve the desired result - enhanced replay and listener satisfaction.

I don't know if SET is more sensitive to setup than other types of systems. I think fine-tuning is critical for all systems to achieve optimal results. But I will say that tube amplification in general requires [or allows?] more tweaking than SS. And because of the pure SET approach, there is less manipulation of the signal. As such what may go unnoticed in less revealing systems becomes more apparent and critical. There I one [1] supporting comment about SET. Of course, while you may question this statement, in my associations I've found it to be true.

MikE

[DMK]

[QUOTE=300A]
By the way, look at all the horns and single drivers speakers response, 75hz is the cutoff point with expensive ones maybe to 50hz. Horns drop at 36db/octave, or down approx 36db at 37hz while single drivers drop about 12db per octave. QUOTE]

My single driver speakers are -3 db at 20hz with audible output at 15 hz. Where are you getting your information?

[300A]

Sorry if I came off so strong. Have seen too many people touting info at this site (other strings) and other sites over the years that are very suspicious.

I agree tubes May be a little more sensitive to setup. Haven't had enough exposure with SS to be absolutely sure on them.

RGA, which brand speakers are you using that go that low and yet go that high with only one driver? Is it a two cone arrangement, center "fuzzy" cone which produces the highs? What size driver is it?

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

This site [the old AR] certainly had it's share of trolls/sock puppets and shills. As I'm not familiar with your monikor, you aren't familiar with myself either. I'll be the first to admit that I love tubes and have finally found happiness [approaching 2 years] with my SET. And while I'm not shy about sharing my satisfaction I would be careful about ensuring that others would find similar bliss by adopting my choice of amplification.

I'm far from a expert regarding SET, and only beginning to explore a full blown SET+Hi-Efficiency system. I've sampled single drivers and horns, and while I've heard some good things from both I haven't heard anything [save Edgarhorn Titan's last year] that bested what I'm using now. Still I see this passion as a journey and feel I'm on the right path [for me] to long term satisfaction. I'm always interested in listening to opinions - pro-n-con - on the direction I've chosen.

MikE

[300A]

One other point I have noticed is that all three used different topologies and different output parts. The Pass X250 is of course SS. The VTL uses 300bs and the SAS Audio Labs uses KT88s.

The SS is of course SS, the VTL uses directly heated cathode 300b tubes and the SAS Audio uses an indirectly heated cathode tetrode wired triode.

I am seeing that it is the design that makes the most difference, not necessarily the type of device used. Of course the best brand of each type makes a difference.

[RGA]

Sorry if I came off so strong. Have seen too many people touting info at this site (other strings) and other sites over the years that are very suspicious.

I agree tubes May be a little more sensitive to setup. Haven't had enough exposure with SS to be absolutely sure on them.

RGA, which brand speakers are you using that go that low and yet go that high with only one driver? Is it a two cone arrangement, center "fuzzy" cone which produces the highs? What size driver is it?

I never said I had a single driver speaker...I used Audio note speakers which for ~200.00 to 30kUS are all two-way two driver designs.

I used my own Audio note AN K Spe speakers which are 90db, 8 ohm(never dip below 5ohms making them vary easy to drive), 8inch woofer .75 inch silk dome. The speakers are well braced but non damped(or very very little damping). Sealed wide baffle box. 36hz - 20khz in a corner placement or ~50hz (-6db).

However I also heard their larger standmount that AN E/SEC($20k), with another of their SET amps. That speaker is 18hz to 23khz >94db 8inch woofer 1 inch tweeter Alnico magnets. Rear port, again little to no damping(they take the ferrofluid out of the driver from Vifa.

It should be noted that their SETs (all their amps I believe are sets) run to 27 watts per channel - the Ongaku On is considered in a number of quarters as the best amp on the planet - with a price of around $90,000.00US I would hope bloody well so.

There is zero problem with bass depth or impact or much else with the Soro at around $2k. I had read a lot about the SET sound and that is why when I heard it and the dealer said it was a SET I said "Seriously?"

It exhibits none of the flab or roll off I was expecting, what it did do that even my considered "good valve like" Sugden didn't do was a complete grain free treble and a "Music coming out of the black background" quality. The system was the best I have ever heard(the AN E Sec that is). And I have heard a lot of very good set-ups some do certain things better, but musically not up to snuff in the end.

Part of the reason I bought their lower model speaker was due to a striking similarity of tonal/timbral structure with the lack of the big visceral impact of the AN E.

I was expecting a SET amp to be a 3 watt thing...10-18 is still a fair amount and a lot with sensitive speakers.

Mono block SETS http://www.stereotimes.com/amp100501.shtm

[300A]

Yes RGA, the other companies also used either multi driver speakers , electrostats, or ribbons etc. for deep bass as well as gorgeous mids, highs too.
Would rather do that than try to match sub. Never heard one yet that really sounded right.