Around $1,000: Receiver or Seperates?

[JonW]

Probably an age old question. I’m starting to shop around for a stereo system, built up from nothing. Mostly for music, I’d guess 95% for music and 5% for a movie once or twice a week. The budget is flexible, but here’s a rough estimate of where I’d guess things will come in: Main 2 speakers: $1,000-3,000, Subwoofer: $1,000-2,000, Rear speakers for movies: $500-1,000, Center speaker for movies: $300-600.

I have roughly $1,000 for a receiver, but can go higher if there is a compelling reason. Because it’s mostly for music, I’d guess I don’t need most of the fancy features all the new amps come with. But a 5.1 setup for the occasional movie would be nice.

So is it best to just get an AV receiver (e.g., Denon 3805, HK 635, etc.) or is this about the point I should be looking at separates?

Thanks.

-Jon

[paul_pci]

The mainstream companies such as Yamaha, Denon, and HK will load up their receivers with more bells and whistles than guys such as yourself need or want. Then, what's a guy to do, who wants occasional surround sound, quality music, but can do without all the fancy features? First than all those mainstream manufacturers because they have ratcheted up the pressure for high end manufacturers to produce five-channel receivers that are high on quaity and low on unnecessary features. Check out: Rotel, Arcam, B&K, and even Marantz. I'm sure there are others. If you've got the money, I'm sure they have just what you're looking for.

[N. Abstentia]

Receiver. With only $1000 to spend you won't even be able to get a preamp (maybe unless you go used) and you'd still need at least another $500 for a used 5 channel amp.

[JonW]

Receiver. With only $1000 to spend you won't even be able to get a preamp (maybe unless you go used) and you'd still need at least another $500 for a used 5 channel amp.

OK. The budget is flexible, though.

Given that I'm so new to this... What, really, is a preamp? Something with all the needed electronics, inputs, outputs, etc. but no power to drive the speakers, correct? I didn't realize they were that expensive. How about getting a cheap ($300-500) AV receiver to handle all the electronic stuff (i.e., a preamp) and then adding amps for power?

[JonW]

The mainstream companies such as Yamaha, Denon, and HK will load up their receivers with more bells and whistles than guys such as yourself need or want. Then, what's a guy to do, who wants occasional surround sound, quality music, but can do without all the fancy features? First than all those mainstream manufacturers because they have ratcheted up the pressure for high end manufacturers to produce five-channel receivers that are high on quaity and low on unnecessary features. Check out: Rotel, Arcam, B&K, and even Marantz. I'm sure there are others. If you've got the money, I'm sure they have just what you're looking for.

OK, good idea. If companies like those foucs more on sound quality and less on gizmos, that could be good for me.

[Geoffcin]

So is it best to just get an AV receiver (e.g., Denon 3805, HK 635, etc.) or is this about the point I should be looking at separates?

Thanks.

-Jon

My main system consists of a dedicated 2-channel system, that is also hooked into a full up 7.1 Home Theater system. I went with seperates for the Audio system and a receiver for the Home Theater. My advice is to get a quality 2-channel system first, and then add the home theater around it. With 95% of your time listening to music, you want to have the best audio system you can get.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, I agree with Geoffcin, except I'm going to go a step further...if you listen to 95% music, why are you spending so much on surround speakers and a center channel? Multi-channel audio? If it's mostly 2-channel you might be better off putting a few hundred more into main speakers/amplification.

With all the quality musical subs on the market today, you should be able to find a $500-$700 subwoofer that rivals $1000-$2000 big brand name subs. The Adire Rava is just one example. The Dayton Titanics are excellent as well. Unless of course you love your bass, then by all means indulge.

You could easily buy 3 or 4 powerful used amplifiers from the likes of Adcom, Rotel, NAD, etc for $500-$600. Maybe get 1 integrated among those for the analog sources. Then drop another $400 into a good a/v receiver like those $300-$400 Denons, Yamahas, H/K', Pioneers etc with pre-outs and enjoy. For digital sources, the step up to a separate pre-pro isn't going to translate into a big leap in sound quality, some would argue none at all (I disagree, but whatever), and for analog, you'll really appreciate having the integrated. A/V receivers cheap out on the pre-amp sections IMO.

Later on when you save up more money, you'll be able to buy a quality pre/pro too and won't have to upgrade your whole system, just fire out the receiver and be done with it.

If you do elect to buy a receiver, I find the Arcam and NAD receivers to sound every bit as good as their separates. Not surprising since the use the same components.

[JonW]

Yeah, I agree with Geoffcin, except I'm going to go a step further...if you listen to 95% music, why are you spending so much on surround speakers and a center channel? Multi-channel audio? If it's mostly 2-channel you might be better off putting a few hundred more into main speakers/amplification.

Oh, I could easily do that. No, it's just regular, plain, old 2 channel music for me most of the time. And the budget is flexible- I can spend more if I really want to. Those numbers were initial guesses. I'm just starting my shopping around now. Just auditioned my first speakers recently (Dynaudios- not super impressed).

With all the quality musical subs on the market today, you should be able to find a $500-$700 subwoofer that rivals $1000-$2000 big brand name subs. The Adire Rava is just one example. The Dayton Titanics are excellent as well. Unless of course you love your bass, then by all means indulge.

I'm no bass freak- I'm pretty average, I'd guess. Actually, I'm considering building an infinite baffle subwoofer into the house. Could be a fun project and provide some very nice bass. My old house has a hole in the floor that is pretty far from where the main speakers will be (5-15 feet away). So I still have to test the location to see if an IB might be suitable. It would add a very fun DIY aspect to building up the system. We'll see.

You could easily buy 3 or 4 powerful used amplifiers from the likes of Adcom, Rotel, NAD, etc for $500-$600. Maybe get 1 integrated among those for the analog sources. Then drop another $400 into a good a/v receiver like those $300-$400 Denons, Yamahas, H/K', Pioneers etc with pre-outs and enjoy. For digital sources, the step up to a separate pre-pro isn't going to translate into a big leap in sound quality, some would argue none at all (I disagree, but whatever), and for analog, you'll really appreciate having the integrated. A/V receivers cheap out on the pre-amp sections IMO.

Later on when you save up more money, you'll be able to buy a quality pre/pro too and won't have to upgrade your whole system, just fire out the receiver and be done with it.

If you do elect to buy a receiver, I find the Arcam and NAD receivers to sound every bit as good as their separates. Not surprising since the use the same components.

I'm just learning, so... what's an integrated amp mean? Versus a pre-pro or a regular amp? And are you suggesting to get a cheap $400 AV receiver for all the inputs/outputs/electronics/etc. and then just add amps to that?

Thanks.

[kexodusc]

Oh, I could easily do that. No, it's just regular, plain, old 2 channel music for me most of the time. And the budget is flexible- I can spend more if I really want to. Those numbers were initial guesses. I'm just starting my shopping around now. Just auditioned my first speakers recently (Dynaudios- not super impressed).




I'm no bass freak- I'm pretty average, I'd guess. Actually, I'm considering building an infinite baffle subwoofer into the house. Could be a fun project and provide some very nice bass. My old house has a hole in the floor that is pretty far from where the main speakers will be (5-15 feet away). So I still have to test the location to see if an IB might be suitable. It would add a very fun DIY aspect to building up the system. We'll see.



I'm just learning, so... what's an integrated amp mean? Versus a pre-pro or a regular amp?
Thanks.

JonW:

An integrated amp is basically is basically a 2-channel stereo receiver (no processing) with no am/fm tuner. It usually consists of the same components a manufacturer uses in their pre-amps and amps, but all in one box. Saves a bit of money, but usually you have less power than separate amp/pre-amp combos. With power being equal, I don't find a decent integrated any less capable than separates.

Pre/pro is just a pre-amp with a/v processing, as opposed to a pre-amp's 2-channel stereo limitation.

And are you suggesting to get a cheap $400 AV receiver for all the inputs/outputs/electronics/etc. and then just add amps to that?

Yes. I have a $700-ish receiver running only my center channel. I use 3 separate external power amps connected via the receiver's "pre-outs" to drive the front mains, and 4 surround speakers.
Even though my power amps ratings are lower than my receiver's, they are more powerful and sound noticeably better.
I could very well get by with just the receiver, but at higher volumes, the receiver gets a bit strained, and my receiver has something like 55 real watts/channel when all channels are driven...my amps deliver more between 80 and 90 watts/channel...not much of a difference in max output, but the headroom is nice during busy movie passages where 3 or more channels are firing away. For my multi-channel audio indulsions, it's a must.

Someday I'll pony up for a nice pre-pro, and I won't need to buy the whole receiver. Then I can probably do away with my integrated in my 2nd system and just have them all in one room. Where I find receivers cheap out on the pre-amp stages (and amp stages to an extent) pre-pros have better quality throughout.

Yamaha, Denon, etc usually have receivers in the $300-$400 range with pre-outs. They have all the HT processing you need. Add 2 power amps to this and you'll have all the power you'll need. Add 1 integrated amp on top of that to drive your front mains, and you'll likely get a step up in stereo music quality over the inexpensive receiver's output.
This of course assumes you are okay buying used.

[JonW]

Hi Kex,

Thanks for the primer. That all makes sense. Although I don't understand how you described using an integrated amp for the mains (as oppossed to just a regular amp for the mains).

So how much do these expensive pre-pro's go for- maybe for a decent, but not crazy expensive one, to make a noticable difference versus using a receiver as a pre-pro?

And if I don't want to spend $5,000 just on power and electronics now, you seem to think using an AV receiver as a pre-pro is a decent way to go, correct? Better than just getting a big receiver for the same total cost?

I like the idea. You can buy a few amps. Those will always be useful. Then just change the receiver as the technology changes.

In, say, a 5.1 system with a powered sub, you've got the main speakers to drive, the center channel, and the rear/surrounds. Do you get 3 amps- 1 for each of the mains, the center, and the rears? Or get 2 amps and use the receiver amp for either the rears or center? On one hand, the rears have 2 speakers so they should get the amp. On the other hand, the center works more often than the rears.

By the way, I would not have thought to get a cheap receiver and then some amps. This forum and you folks are really helpful. Thanks.

[JonW]

My main system consists of a dedicated 2-channel system, that is also hooked into a full up 7.1 Home Theater system. I went with seperates for the Audio system and a receiver for the Home Theater. My advice is to get a quality 2-channel system first, and then add the home theater around it. With 95% of your time listening to music, you want to have the best audio system you can get.

So do I understand this correclty- you got good main speakers and a pre and amp seperates for music. Then a cheap AV receiver and surround speakers for movies? Doesn't that mean you have some redundancy (that you paid for) with teh pre and the AV receiver doing the same thing?