Amp for my 2 channel

[cyto]

My birthday is coming up this summer and I want to add an amp to my 2 channel system, budget $400 max. Used is fine. I eventually will upgrade to a better pre-amp, but that will be later. I plan on keeping the KG4's until I die.

I was thinking of an Emotiva UPA-2 new or a used NAD, I have seen the used 2200, at least 10 years old, go for $250 or so.

The Emo headquarters is near my house so I could try a UPA-2 and easily return it.

I was wondering what you guys think would be the best fit for my 2 channel system.

Thanks

[Mr Peabody]

The UPA-2 would be a good choice and as new you'd have a warranty. Used I'd look for Adcom or Parasound. In my opinion the Adcom is a more robust sound than NAD. The only Parasound I've owned was a 750, it seemed to be more clean sounding but lacked the bottom end of Adcom. You wouldn't need much power for the Klipsch and could pick up an Adcom gfa-535 for under $200.00, or maybe a newer gfa-5300. I'm not sure how much Rotel amps go for on the used market but that's also something to look at.

If you can hold out Emo usually has a party or open house type of thing during one weekend in the summer and they give good discounts to visitors so your money could go further at that time. I think it's called "Emo Fest". Keep watch on the site or listen to their Podcasts.

[harley .guy07]

I totally agree with Mr. Peabody with the amps mentioned. I would add that the Adcom 545 series 2 is what I use and I used to sell Adcom in the 90's and it seemed to be the cleanest and overall best sounding of the 500 series Adcoms so look for it and also the 5000 series there was the 5300 and 5500 which were both excellent sounding models but the 5500 would be more power than your speakers need which is not necessarily a bad thing just that I think the 545 series 2 would be a perfect fit for your system, its not to bright and has the low end to make your speakers come alive and they are to be had used at good prices, well below the $400 price you set. But if Emo is that close to you maybe you could try one of their amps and see how it does. I have heard Emo's are brighter sounding which might be a negative to your KG-4's since they are horn driven and might sound overly bright with a bright amp but I have not heard one myself to confirm that Emo amps are bright so my opinion is just from reading about them but I will say I would go Adcom before parasound and Nad any day from what I have heard in my life but I have not heard all of the offerings from these brands and it seems that every model seems to offer something different. I have heard the Halo Parasound stuff is really good but they are way past your price range and frankly with your price range used would be the way to go to get something good. In my opinion looking at the circuits and design I would go used Adcom over the UPA Emotiva as far as sound quality concerns. That is my opinion and is subject to change upon hearing said amps.

[harley .guy07]

I will add that a good preamp makes all the difference in the world. I was running my Adcom with my Yamaha receiver before upgrading to a Nuforce preamp and I will say that it does make a difference so any amp you go with will improve the sound but a great preamp is the heart of the system that most people overlook as a sound quality changer but it does effect the sound quality in a big way and it makes sense for it to since the volume control, preamp circuits, and inputs all go through this unit to be switched to what you are wanting to listen to and that means that it does a lot of work and needs to be quality built to get the most out or your amp and speakers. so do dismiss that as a upgrade once you settle on a good amp.

[frenchmon]

You may want to check this out...http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....Original-Owner.

I have this amp and its a very good amp.

Heres another good one. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ower-Amplifier

[Tarheel_]

of course you'll get the same emo recommendations around here, but i'd recommend a used name brand amp. Give the Anthem PVA2 some consideration before settling. This model has been out many years and can be found used for around your budget or lower.

http://www.anthemav.com/products/ant...a-series/pva-2

I own a PVA model (multichannel) and really enjoy everything about it.

[frenchmon]

of course you'll get the same emo recommendations around here, but i'd recommend a used name brand amp. Give the Anthem PVA2 some consideration before settling. This model has been out many years and can be found used for around your budget or lower.

http://www.anthemav.com/products/ant...a-series/pva-2

I own a PVA model (multichannel) and really enjoy everything about it.

can that be had within his budget?

[Tarheel_]

can that be had within his budget?

I've seen them on audiogon for as low as $300, while most hover in the $400-500 range.

[frenchmon]

I've seen them on audiogon for as low as $300, while most hover in the $400-500 range.

$300...that would be a deal.

[Feanor]

My birthday is coming up this summer and I want to add an amp to my 2 channel system, budget $400 max. Used is fine. I eventually will upgrade to a better pre-amp, but that will be later. I plan on keeping the KG4's until I die.

I was thinking of an Emotiva UPA-2 new or a used NAD, I have seen the used 2200, at least 10 years old, go for $250 or so.

The Emo headquarters is near my house so I could try a UPA-2 and easily return it.

I was wondering what you guys think would be the best fit for my 2 channel system.

Thanks

Well, if your willing to do minimal DIY fussing, I'd recommend the Class D Audio SDS-254, (see here). Where transparency and air are concerned, this will trounce any of the old Adcoms, NADs (for sure), and probably most Parasounds. The sound might a little "neutral" for some people's preference, though.

BTW, I'm not trashing Adcom. I enjoy a GFA-555II for awhile; it had a pleasant, slightly "earthy" sound, but like I say, didn't have the resolution of the CDA.

[frenchmon]

Well, if your willing to do minimal DIY fussing, I'd recommend the Class D Audio SDS-254, (see here). Where transparency and air are concerned, this will trounce any of the old Adcoms, NADs (for sure), and probably most Parasounds. The sound might a little "neutral" for some people's preference, though.

BTW, I'm not trashing Adcom. I enjoy a GFA-555II for awhile; it had a pleasant, slightly "earthy" sound, but like I say, didn't have the resolution of the CDA.

Hey Feanor...why dont you just put your amp where your money is....send it to me seeing I have the ADCOM and I can tell you if its better?

[Feanor]

Hey Feanor...why dont you just put your amp where your money is....send it to me seeing I have the ADCOM and I can tell you if its better?

I couldn't stand to be without it so long, Frenchie

[JoeE SP9]

I couldn't stand to be without it so long, Frenchie

From your comment it would seem you are using it as your "main" amplifier. May I presume that you like it as much as when you first built it? I've been waiting for some comments based on long term listening. C'mon out with it! Is it all that and a bag of chips? How much longer do you intend using it? Do you have a replacement in mind? If so, what? Your input here will have a large influence on me if no one else.

The two bridged Crown XLS-402's are doing just fine from 85Hz down driving my subs. Although I love the sound of my worked Dyna MK-III's their 60 Watts is just not enough. I'm saving my nickels for a couple of 200 Watt tubed mono blocks but I need more (affordable) power now.

Give us the skinny!

[Feanor]

From your comment it would seem you are using it as your "main" amplifier. May I presume that you like it as much as when you first built it? I've been waiting for some comments based on long term listening. C'mon out with it! Is it all that and a bag of chips? How much longer do you intend using it? Do you have a replacement in mind? If so, what? Your input here will have a large influence on me if no one else.

The two bridged Crown XLS-402's are doing just fine from 85Hz down driving my subs. Although I love the sound of my worked Dyna MK-III's their 60 Watts is just not enough. I'm saving my nickels for a couple of 200 Watt tubed mono blocks but I need more (affordable) power now.

Give us the skinny!

Joe, yeah, I'm still using the Class D Audio SDS-258 as my main amp. In fact a couple of days ago I switched back to Monarchy SM-70 Pros for a few selections but I didn't like it -- a bit too warm and "fleshy" after the CDA.

My earlier impressions are unchanged. This is an extremely transparent amp, grain-free, and totally neutral with true instrument & voice timbres. I easily tamed what seemed like a bit of brightness by installing 1 ohm resistors ahead of the my Magneplanar QR tweeters.

However what I call "neutral" some might call "lean". Coming off Dyna Mk III's that's likey how you would find them that way. But dang! I really love to hear my Maggies drive by the Dynas.

[frenchmon]

I couldn't stand to be without it so long, Frenchie

Oh yeah...I know that feeling.

[Ajani]

My birthday is coming up this summer and I want to add an amp to my 2 channel system, budget $400 max. Used is fine. I eventually will upgrade to a better pre-amp, but that will be later. I plan on keeping the KG4's until I die.

I was thinking of an Emotiva UPA-2 new or a used NAD, I have seen the used 2200, at least 10 years old, go for $250 or so.

The Emo headquarters is near my house so I could try a UPA-2 and easily return it.

I was wondering what you guys think would be the best fit for my 2 channel system.

Thanks

Since Emo is near your house, then you really have nothing to lose with a free in-home-trial... I don't recommend Emo products to overseas customers like myself (based on the issues I've had - especially the cost of shipping a heavy amp back to the US is service is needed - but none of that would affect you as you can just carry it right back to Emo if you have an issue)...

Clearly, if you are willing to buy used then there are LOADS of alternatives available... Same if you are handy with a soldering gun and opt for DIY... However, I don't really see Emo gear as being aimed at those persons; rather I see it is as intended for persons who want New, fully assembled gear in which case there is very little competition, with similar specs and sound quality, available at the price...

[cyto]

Great responses! Now I have a couple of questions:

1) Would the Adcom GFA-535 have enough power? I like the prices and physical size. The Technics I am now using is 50wpc and I was wondering if a 60wpc amp (although separate) would offer much more?

2) I see quite few GFA-5400's on Ebay, would that be a good option?

[JoeE SP9]

Great responses! Now I have a couple of questions:

1) Would the Adcom GFA-535 have enough power? I like the prices and physical size. The Technics I am now using is 50wpc and I was wondering if a 60wpc amp (although separate) would offer much more?

2) I see quite few GFA-5400's on Ebay, would that be a good option?

Answers:
1)Yes, it probably has enough power. These are not "receiver" Watts. However, the difference between 50 and 60 Watt's is negligable on the dBW scale. IMO a 535 will sound like at least twice the power when compared to a Technics receiver. Any of those Adcoms will drive (maybe not very loud) Apogee Scintilla's when strapped for 1 Ohm operation. If you try that with your Technics it will either go into protection mode or let out all the magic smoke.

2) Yes. The 545 and 5400 series have 100WPC and act like more. One of those is what I would be looking for.

[Mr Peabody]

I hope this isn't some kind of violation. I just got this and thought it pertinent to the original post.

Memorial Day Weekend Sale!
Take advantage of huge summer savings during our weekend-only Memorial Day Sale.

While supplies last. Sale ends Monday, May 30, 2011.
UPA-2 Two Channel Audio Amplifier: $350.00
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USP-1 Stereo Premplifier: $404.00
ERD-1 Surround Speakers: $359.00
ERM 6.2 LCR Monitor: $269.00
ERM 6.3 LCR Monitor: $539.00
ERT 8.3 Reference Towers: $1438.00
UAW 6.2 In-Wall Speakers: $134.00
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Gearing-Up for Emofest!
It's that time of year again... Emofest, our hugely popular customer appreciation and open house weekend, is September
3-4, 2011. Bring your family, friends, Lounge Lizards, even strangers, if you must. We'll have activities for everyone! AND it's free to attend.
Get more info and register for Emofest here.

New Podcast
A new podcast is up! Be sure to check out the news section of our website for the lates updates on products and the company.

>> Listen to the latest podcast <<

Thank you and have a great weekend!
Your friends at Emotiva

Looks like the links didn't come through but you know where to go.

[Poultrygeist]

Since your Klipsch speakers are highly efficient at 94 dbs your are indeed fortunate to be in S.E.T. territory. This class A single ended amp from Musical Paradise for $260 will sound better with your speakers than anything mentioned in this thread. It's 6.5 wpc is more than you'll ever need with 94 db speakers, I promise.


http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/ind...products_id=75

[cyto]

Since your Klipsch speakers are highly efficient at 94 dbs your are indeed fortunate to be in S.E.T. territory. This class A single ended amp from Musical Paradise for $260 will sound better with your speakers than anything mentioned in this thread. It's 6.5 wpc is more than you'll ever need with 94 db speakers, I promise.


http://www.musicalparadise.ca/mp/ind...products_id=75

What do the others here think of this option? I like the idea of a tube amp and I see that they have a 7 day return policy.. Excuse my ignorance Poultrygeist, but what is S.E.T.?

[Feanor]

What do the others here think of this option? I like the idea of a tube amp and I see that they have a 7 day return policy.. Excuse my ignorance Poultrygeist, but what is S.E.T.?

"Single-Ended Triode" is a different sound from any of the solid state amps previously mentioned. Some people worship the sound, others not so much. The latter argue that the sound, though charming, as little to do with sonic accuracy.

I'm also skeptical about 6.5 wpc; a lot will depend on the size of your room and you willingness to listen at no more than moderate levels.

[RGA]

"Single-Ended Triode" is a different sound from any of the solid state amps previously mentioned. Some people worship the sound, others not so much. The latter argue that the sound, though charming, as little to do with sonic accuracy.

I'm also skeptical about 6.5 wpc; a lot will depend on the size of your room and you willingness to listen at no more than moderate levels.

This is why you need more experience Feanor - You are saying a 6.5wpc amp can't play a speaker above moderate levels. You need to listen to better systems if you really believe this statement.

[Feanor]

This is why you need more experience Feanor - You are saying a 6.5wpc amp can't play a speaker above moderate levels. You need to listen to better systems if you really believe this statement.

By "better systems" do you really mean more efficient speakers? Or are you being condescending?

[RGA]

What do the others here think of this option? I like the idea of a tube amp and I see that they have a 7 day return policy.. Excuse my ignorance Poultrygeist, but what is S.E.T.?

Here are some links about SET (no feedback) amplifiers. Single ended amplifiers are the only truly linear amplifier devices that do not create errors to then need to be corrected by the amplifier - the damage has been done before the error correction circuit begins (called Feedback).

SET based systems typically always sound better than competing designs (however you pay a big price in amplifier power) The way to correct that is to use High efficient speakers. in other words speakers that can play loud with little power. The problem is high efficient speakers tend to cost more because efficient speakers use better quality drivers.

Whether they are Solid State or tube. Single ended no feedback amps do the least damage to the signal from input to output. Here are some links about it from several sources.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/

"Negative feedback, quite simply, is the application of an inverted portion of an amplifier's output signal to its input terminals. This "extra" signal is subtracted from the input and serves to reduce the effective amplifier gain (as the input signal is then smaller). In addition, steady state distortion is thought to be reduced as the out-of-phase distortion components contained in the feedback signal cancels out some of the errors created by the amplifier circuitry.

This scheme presents two very obvious problems. Firstly, all amplifiers introduce some delay to passing a signal from its input, to its output and then back to its input. During this delay period, a feedback amplifier is operating at its natural (referred to as "open-loop") gain. It is not until this initial delay period is over, that the circuit begins to exhibit its intended operating ("closed loop") gain characteristics. There must be, by the very definition of a feedback system, some change in the gain factor G, during the transition from open to closed loop operation. This gain modulation would probably not be audible by itself, as the propagation delays of most good amplifiers are quite small, except that the increased gain of the amplifier during the initialization period results in a decreased maximum input capability before overload. Simply put, an amplifier which utilizes 20 dB of feedback (a relatively modest amount by modern standards) and requires an input of two volts to clip during closed loop operation, would overload with only two tenths of a volt input during the forward delay period. Once the amplifier is overdriven, it may take many times its delay period to become fully restored to normal operation. The distortion created by this condition has been commonly referred to as Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), Dynamic Intermodulation Distortion (DIM), and Slew Induced Distortion (SID).

In addition to this obvious form of feedback induced distortion, there exists another more subtle effect of signal regeneration. Because all amplifiers have some forward propagation delay, the fed back portion of the output signal will always lag behind the input. There is therefore a constant introduction of "out of date" information into the amplifier. Under transient conditions (which is what music is; transients), this results in the presentation of an error correction signal intended to reduce the distortion of an input signal which has already passed through the amplifier and is either already out of the circuit or well on the way out of the circuit. The signal present at the input by the time the feedback has arrived may bear no relation to the previous signal and thus will not be properly acted upon by the regenerated information. The current input signal is then distorted once, through the subtraction of an erroneous feedback waveform, and again by the amplifier. Additionally, the error signal present in feedback is passed through the amplifier and again fed back, with all of the newly created distortions, to make yet another trip through the circuit, until it is allowed to decay through successive attenuation. Thus, a distortion signal which originally may have lasted only a few microseconds, can pass through the amplifier enough times for its effective duration to have exceeded the threshold of human audibility. The mechanism originally designed to reduce audible distortion, actually, under transient conditions, serves to regenerate, emphasize and, in fact, create distortion.
Negative effects of negative feedback.../...

[in a SET amp] such distortion regeneration does not take place. The circuits have been designed for maximum linearity without corrective mechanisms, and thus responds as easily to transient signals as it does to steady state waveforms. The amplifiers make no attempt to reverse the path of time in order to correct their own errors. Those distortions created by these circuits (which are almost entirely harmonic in nature) are allowed to pass only onto the loudspeaker, and not back to the input.

Despite the absence of feedback, the forward propagation delay of all our amplifiers has received much attention. All our output transformers have been designed using this criterion, obviously with a keen eye on cost. It is obvious that if this delay is not absolutely invariant, for all conditions, the DeltaT component of the input signal will not be accurately preserved. Thus, those factors which determine delay have been carefully observed and stabilized. In addition, the operation of all amplification stages at nearly constant power, independent of signal conditions, i.e. Class A operation at every stage, greatly contributes to the symmetry and linearity of our circuits.

It is, however, not enough for an amplifier to operate linearly by itself. In order to minimize audible distortions, the device must be able to operate as well into a real loudspeaker as it does into a laboratory resistive load.

In order to adequately control the cone excursions of the loudspeaker and to optimize power transfer, the effective output impedance of the amplifier should be as far below the impedance of the load as possible. The ratio of these two impedances is referred to a damping factor, usually referenced to an eight ohm speaker. Thus, a damping factor of eighty reflects an amplifier output impedance of one tenth of one ohm. The design of the output transformer is extremely critical, and taps on the output are normally provided to match the load impedance best possible.

A problem in the normal expression of damping factor is that its measurement is performed using steady state signals. This results in a factor relying quite heavily on the action of an amplifier's feedback. The damping ability of an amplifier under transient conditions, before the feedback mechanism has been able to reach, is only accurately expressed as the steady state damping factor divided by the feedback factor. Thus, an amplifier with twenty decibels of feedback and specified damping factor of one hundred, has a damping value of only ten under transient conditions. This not only reduces the amplifier's ability to control the cone movement, but allows voltages created in the speaker voice coil to mix with the output signal and enter the amplifier's feedback system. In this condition, distortions created by the speaker's motion are not only unattenuated, but are emphasized through feedback regeneration.


http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/...feedback.shtml

Interview with one of the biggest SET manufacturers (starts at about 2:40) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEUW3...eature=related

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazin...amplifiers.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/399/