Which Amp

[CannondaleSuperVee]

Between Parasound, Odyssey, ATI, Adcom or Sunfire, they will all end up being about the same price with very similar wattage ratings. Are they all about the same so the diffrence would be inaudible or is there one that would stand out. Thanks Jason

[musicguy04]

I like the way parasounds sound, especially the Halo's. I think they have a clear sound. I don't know much about the other brands, sorry.

[topspeed]

What will you be driving? What kind of music do you listen to?

[sy_lu]

I never heard of Odyssey and my experiences to other brands are limited to models that are a few years old. I have an older HCA series Parasound. A just ok but not greate amp. Its ability to drive low ohm speakers is not very good and it also has the worst ground loop problem of all the audio devices I ever owned. ATI probably can drive the low ohm speakers better but the sound is less clean. Adcom was only on par with a mid range receiver. The worst sound of all was the Sunfire. I got an in home trial of the Sunfire and its sound was so muddy that the Denon 3300 (I used it as a pre/pro) receiver's amp section has a clearner sound. I end up got a Legacy PowerBloc5 that was oem from a small company call Coda. I think regardless what music or movie you play, a good amp should be fast and have very good current capacity to handle any speakers you will put on it.

[psonic]

I would add Rotel to that list, if you can find a dealer that is. IMO Rotel is possibly the best power amplifier under $1000. I own the RB981BX which is basically same as the current RB-1070 130wpc. The $999 RB1080BX 200wpc is a stereophile class B product, which none of the others can boast. Another enjoyable amp in that range would be B&K. Both well worth considering...


http://www.rotel.com/products/stereo...amplifiers.htm

[CannondaleSuperVee]

I have a set of MB Quart 2000's that they no longer make, they are 4 ohm and each cabinet has 2 @ 8 inch drivers 2 @ 5 1/4's and a tweeter, retail was $3200.00 for the set. I usually listen to rock music and use it for movies but the music is the main thing I want it for.
All the amps i'm looking at are going to end up being around $3000 if its 2 odyssey 3 channels amps or the ATI 2505 five channel.

[topspeed]

I have a set of MB Quart 2000's that they no longer make, they are 4 ohm and each cabinet has 2 @ 8 inch drivers 2 @ 5 1/4's and a tweeter, retail was $3200.00 for the set. I usually listen to rock music and use it for movies but the music is the main thing I want it for.
All the amps i'm looking at are going to end up being around $3000 if its 2 odyssey 3 channels amps or the ATI 2505 five channel.

Just to clarify, are you looking for a 2 channel or multi-channel? You've only mentioned the MBQ's but are referring to purchasing 5 to 6 channels of amplification. You're not planning on bi-amping your mains with the the same amp, are you?

[CannondaleSuperVee]

Topspeed,
I also have Quart center and surround speakers but the music is the main thing. The local store has a Krell 5 channel amp for $3050 sale price, but now I found an ATI 2505 clearanced for $1395 instead of $2500 so now i'm really confused.
I'm trying to build a nice sounding system and so far I have speakers I really like, wired with Monster Z3(probley will sell and get either Z4 or M 2.4), the Monster Signiture Series voltage regulator and the Sig. Ser. 7000 surge protector is on order and the amp is the next thing I need to get. Sorry to ramble Jason

[sy_lu]

Krell is a better amp than the ATI. More refined sound and possibly better current control too. If you can afford it, take the Krell.

[RGA]

Krell unfortunately is grossly overpriced for what you get. Personally with $3000.00 I would seriously buy a Bryston 3b which is a 2 channel amp which would drive the rear and the 6BSST which would drive your front three channels as it is a 3 channel amp.

In fact the 6b may be all you need. Your receiver's MAIN power could then drive the rear channels. The Brystons simply are about as good as Solid state can get from a technical standpoint if your goal ois to drive a difficult speaker.

20 year wrranty transferable - but more important they've been around long enough that the warranty holds merit. And they are not ridiculously priced. http://www.bryston.ca/6bsst_m.html

[topspeed]

Topspeed,
I also have Quart center and surround speakers but the music is the main thing. The local store has a Krell 5 channel amp for $3050 sale price, but now I found an ATI 2505 clearanced for $1395 instead of $2500 so now i'm really confused.
I'm trying to build a nice sounding system and so far I have speakers I really like, wired with Monster Z3(probley will sell and get either Z4 or M 2.4), the Monster Signiture Series voltage regulator and the Sig. Ser. 7000 surge protector is on order and the amp is the next thing I need to get. Sorry to ramble Jason

Well, first I'd reconsider what you are allocating for all of this Monster stuff and apply it towards your amp budget. You'll hear a bigger difference between amps than you will switching cable. Even Paul Seydor of TAS mentioned how absolutely miniscule the audible differences are between high cost/high profile cables and Home Depot outdoor power cord. YMMV.

OK, on to the amps. I've never heard ATI so we'll leave that one out in the parking lot. My impressions of the other amps you listed are:

Odyssey:
Pros-Very good for the $, will have no problem with your load, runs cool, decent if not stunning bass depth and slam, very good in the microdynamics, pick your faceplate, customer support before sale, enviable warranty
Cons-Silvery and sibilant in the top end, leans toward the cooler side of neutral, the epitome of ss sound and not tube like in the least (this could be a pro depending on your taste), customer support if you want to return it .

Parasound (This is the for the Halo, not HCA's):
Pros- Excellent for the $, smooth mids and top end extension, very good bass depth and response, neutral sound, cool looks
Cons- Can be a bit fuzzy sounding, not the fastest in transients, apparently a ground loop problem based on recent posts

Adcom:
Pros- Usually huge bang for your buck, slamming bass, good all-rounder
Cons- Can sound grainy on certain systems, sibilant highs, another amp that is damn proud to be a ss design and sounds like it.

Sunfire:
Pros-switchable current design, run cool, no prob driving your speaks, lightening fast transient response
Cons-Cold, clinical, analytical sound, not musical in the least. I'll be honest, I can't stand Sunfire amps so 'nuff said.

Of the ones you've mentioned, I'd pick the Halo in a New York minute. I'd then compare them to the two other amps that RGA and Psonic mentioned because they are absolutely right, both Bryston and Rotel and superb amps. I'm not a fan of Krell either but they are very good amps if you're into their sound. I'd also consider B&K and Aragon while you're out there. A'gon has some interesting options from Proceed, Classe, and I particularly like this one:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....1550&demo&3&4&

Hope this helps and good luck in your search.

[musicguy04]

Topspeed,

I'm also in the market for a new amp, but given what I've heard on these forums, I'm probably going to wait until I get my new speakers to even bother looking for an amp. I do a lot of searches from past threads on these forums to see what other people have to say. Believe me, your last post left me as confused as ever!

You mentioned Odyssey, Parasound Halo, Adcom, and Sunfire amps. What you said about the Odyssey is on par with what I've heard from other people, and to me isn't worth the hassle of not being able to buy locally.

Parasound Halo is a little different from what I've read. I've read that it's pretty good with transients, and not fuzzy at all, except with a ground loop problem, but then I heard all amps can have this. You said it's fuzzy and not good with transients. So I'm not sure what to think.

Adcom is a little different from previous posts. I've read it's better than a receiver, but not that much better.

Sunfire is waaaaaaaay different from what I've read. I've read Sunfire amps are very fuzzy, similar to tubes. They're very bad with transients. You said the exact opposite.

Of all the above amps, or any amps, I've only heard a Parasound Halo, and it sounds better than any receiver I've had, but I believe that about 95% of the amps out there will sound better than what I have! :-)

Yes, I'm new to this. I'm not really sure what half the terms are, but it's all very confusing. I'd like to learn. I guess from the terms listed, my tastes would sit with what you have listed for the Parasound Halo except without the fuzziness and with very good transient response. Is there any amp that fits the bill,without exceeding the $bill? :-)

I will probably be driving B&W 804 speakers, but I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

[RGA]

musicguy04

When you auditioned the N804 - if you have - if you REALLY love them - then find out the amp running them and buy that amp. System synergy is key not just picking any old amp with any opld speaker because they god a good review. Every company in this thread has had GREAT reviews - just like speakers - and most of them do nothing for me.

I like the Brystons - I would choose something else if I had B&W however.

[musicguy04]

If you had B&W, what would you choose, and why?

[musicguy04]

I heard B&W with Parasound Halo amps and Rotel amps. I preferred the Parasound Halo by far. The Rotel was muddy(compared to the Parasound), but still much better sound that what I currently have, but I've heard weird things about the Halo's and I know there's a lot of amps out there. From reading these posts alone, some I would consider for my tastes would be Musical Fideltiy and Bryston. Why not the Brystons, although, I've never heard them?

[RGA]

Atually I should take that back because the sound was probably the Bryston Preamp. Power amps should not impart a soinic signature - neither should the preamp for that matter. But this isn't a perfect world and they all do.

Parasound has always been a relative fringe player - not bad but not high end - maybe this Halo is a new move. By the way people with B&W swear by Bryston - and I liked the Rotel/B&W combo I heard. But uit also depends on the Rotel - their preamps I'm not a fan of and I don't particularly like their integrated's as a result.

The best SOUND I have heard from B&W N801's came from a Nuvista 11 watt tube amplifier. BUT, you could not play it at real loud levels. McIntosh was an utter disaster.

Try the Brystons. They hold their value very well - you won't find a more sturdy well built product - and their 20 year totally transferable warranties as well as their excellent customer servivce are huge reasons along with quality that has made them king of the hill of the power amp industry for what are relatively reasonable prices.

[topspeed]

Parasound Halo is a little different from what I've read. I've read that it's pretty good with transients, and not fuzzy at all, except with a ground loop problem, but then I heard all amps can have this. You said it's fuzzy and not good with transients. So I'm not sure what to think.

Fuzzy is a relative term. The Halo is not as sharp in the microdynamics as the Stratos is, but I've heard few that are. This may or may not be to your liking however as too much definition can actually sound less than musical imo. I also said the Halo wasn't the fastest in transients, not that it was bad. In relative terms it is more than adequate. The fastest amp in transient response I've encountered is the one I have in my rig; the HCA2

Adcom is a little different from previous posts. I've read it's better than a receiver, but not that much better.

Yep, I agree. Perhaps I was being too nice ?

Sunfire is waaaaaaaay different from what I've read. I've read Sunfire amps are very fuzzy, similar to tubes. They're very bad with transients. You said the exact opposite.

What can I tell you, this is my impression. Maybe it was the speakers? System synergy is sooo important when building a rig but when I heard the Dyn Evidence Temptations driven by Sunfire, it was the proverbial nails on the chalkboard for me. Blechh. Same thing with Vienna Acoustics (can't remember the speaker). I've also read some people compare Bob's stuff to tubes but I sure didn't think so, and I like tubes.

If you had B&W, what would you choose, and why?

I have B&W in my main rig actually and after auditioning countless amps, including most of those mentioned here, I choose a PS Audio HCA2. It all depends on personal preference and system synergy. For me, whenever I hear a true reference system, it invariably is being driven by tubes. Therefore, one can easily deduce that I prefer the tube sound. However, with two rug-rats running around, tubes at this stage of my life is courting disaster. I preferred the PSA because is seemed to meld the best of the ss and tube worlds into one smart chassis. It has depth and slam that bettered every amp I heard this side of Krell yet possesses a luscious, silky midrange and top end finesse that only tubes seem able to muster. I can't explain it and chances are you would hear something different anyway. My only advice is to give it a try and see if it moves you.

Hope this helps.

[Geoffcin]

Topspeed,

I'm also in the market for a new amp, but given what I've heard on these forums, I'm probably going to wait until I get my new speakers to even bother looking for an amp. I do a lot of searches from past threads on these forums to see what other people have to say. Believe me, your last post left me as confused as ever!

You mentioned Odyssey, Parasound Halo, Adcom, and Sunfire amps. What you said about the Odyssey is on par with what I've heard from other people, and to me isn't worth the hassle of not being able to buy locally.

Parasound Halo is a little different from what I've read. I've read that it's pretty good with transients, and not fuzzy at all, except with a ground loop problem, but then I heard all amps can have this. You said it's fuzzy and not good with transients. So I'm not sure what to think.

Adcom is a little different from previous posts. I've read it's better than a receiver, but not that much better.

Sunfire is waaaaaaaay different from what I've read. I've read Sunfire amps are very fuzzy, similar to tubes. They're very bad with transients. You said the exact opposite.

Of all the above amps, or any amps, I've only heard a Parasound Halo, and it sounds better than any receiver I've had, but I believe that about 95% of the amps out there will sound better than what I have! :-)

Yes, I'm new to this. I'm not really sure what half the terms are, but it's all very confusing. I'd like to learn. I guess from the terms listed, my tastes would sit with what you have listed for the Parasound Halo except without the fuzziness and with very good transient response. Is there any amp that fits the bill,without exceeding the $bill? :-)

I will probably be driving B&W 804 speakers, but I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

IMHO; Every amp made today (from a respectable company) can be a great amp. It all depends on the SPEAKERS you hook them up to. The real truth is that the best amps sound great with nearly every speaker made. There's also killer budget amps like Adcom, that with some speaker you'd be hard pressed to hear the difference with a Krell, but most assuredly not with ALL speakers. There's amps with huge damping factors that will grab your woofers by the balls, but then some speakers don't like that. Some amps can deliver huge current for short bursts, but amps like this can also cause your speakers to overload if they can't take the current. This is pretty rare, but I've fried a few fuse in my day (still do), so I can tell you it does happen. There's even low power/high quality amps that work incredible with high efficiency speakers. It's a real smorgasbord out there. The best world is the one where you can BORROW an amp and see how it works with your speakers. I was, and am lucky in that regard, as I've got several friends who I swap components with. That's how I came upon my current amp. Barring that, you should try to hear your speakers with at least three different amps using the EXACT same source. If you can't arrange that then you should at least see of you can get to hear someone else's system that uses YOUR speakers. Most likely he's got an amp that works well with them.

Good luck, and have fun!

[musicguy04]

Geoffcin,

I see you have the Arcam 72 CD player. What do you think of it and how do you feel it compares to others in the price range?

As for the amps, I think I'll have to A/B/C Parasound Halo A23 or A21, Bryston 3B SST, and the PS Audio HCA2, as that has gotten excellent reviews. Any thought on Musical Fidelity, or are those generally not all that great?

[Geoffcin]

Geoffcin,

I see you have the Arcam 72 CD player. What do you think of it and how do you feel it compares to others in the price range?

As for the amps, I think I'll have to A/B/C Parasound Halo A23 or A21, Bryston 3B SST, and the PS Audio HCA2, as that has gotten excellent reviews. Any thought on Musical Fidelity, or are those generally not all that great?

But what else did you expect me to say? I've listened to some VERY expensive CD players (Meridian, Linn, ect.) and I decided that I would much rather put my budget into speakers instead of trying to get the very best CD player. I don't regret the decision, but there are better CD players out there that with a VERY limited amount of CD's you can hear a difference. (with the right setup)

Musical Fidelity makes some of the best amps in the world. Their KW series can be considered one of the few "world class" reference amps. My A3cr amp is a giant killer, and you would be hard pressed to top it for less than 3X the price. My speakers require an amp that can deliver a LOT of current into 4 ohms, and this amp can do it. It does have it's limit though, and in my room it's about 100db before it runs out of steam with my speakers. For me this is not a compromise, as I rarely listen that loud. It also doesn't have the rock sold bottom end of a Krell, or a large Classe amp. For me this is also not a compromise as my main speakers don't have an extended bass response. I make up for it by having two powered 15" subs. As you can see this amp is well matched to my system, and as such works BETTER then some amps costing much more. Is it the amp for your system? Only you can tell, but I would recommend at least trying it to see.

[92135011]

But what else did you expect me to say? I've listened to some VERY expensive CD players (Meridian, Linn, ect.) and I decided that I would much rather put my budget into speakers instead of trying to get the very best CD player. I don't regret the decision, but there are better CD players out there that with a VERY limited amount of CD's you can hear a difference. (with the right setup)

Musical Fidelity makes some of the best amps in the world. Their KW series can be considered one of the few "world class" reference amps. My A3cr amp is a giant killer, and you would be hard pressed to top it for less than 3X the price. My speakers require an amp that can deliver a LOT of current into 4 ohms, and this amp can do it. It does have it's limit though, and in my room it's about 100db before it runs out of steam with my speakers. For me this is not a compromise, as I rarely listen that loud. It also doesn't have the rock sold bottom end of a Krell, or a large Classe amp. For me this is also not a compromise as my main speakers don't have an extended bass response. I make up for it by having two powered 15" subs. As you can see this amp is well matched to my system, and as such works BETTER then some amps costing much more. Is it the amp for your system? Only you can tell, but I would recommend at least trying it to see.

"But what else do you expect me to say"

Maybe it isnt the best to ask someone who actually owns that piece of equipment, Musicguy. It's no doubt that Geoff likes his gear or else he would never buy it. And if he spent thousands on some gear he didnt like...well you know...I have also heard other opinions on MF being too bright or just not hifi, but as long as he's happy with it then thats the most important thing. But then you have people saying those things about all brands in the world no matter how high or low end. So it depends on your preference really, just like how you hated the rotel/B&W combo while I thought it was pretty good.

[RobotCzar]

Since you label yourself as a newbie, you deserve to at least hear a few facts instead of the usual BS.

Under controlled conditions nobody (that is nobody) has demonstrated that they can hear differences among properlyperforming and measuring amps and they have been tested in a variety of conditions over the past 25 years. If frequency response is flat and they have relatively low distortion into reasonable loads, then there is no reason in the world they would "sound" differently. (Even if they did, moving your head or your speakers a few inches would have more effect on what you hear.)

Audiophle magazines lie about this or fool themselves (as to audio fans) beacuse they need something to talk about. Things that actually affect what you hear are generally ignored because you can't buy them (except speakers).

Do yourself a favor and research the issue beyond what you read in forums and magazines. People can't hear difference among even cheap vs. expensive amps. The ones you listed are all just fine and should be judged base on power output per dollar, features, and build quality only.

[DMK]

Since you label yourself as a newbie, you deserve to at least hear a few facts instead of the usual BS.

Under controlled conditions nobody (that is nobody) has demonstrated that they can hear differences among properlyperforming and measuring amps and they have been tested in a variety of conditions over the past 25 years. If frequency response is flat and they have relatively low distortion into reasonable loads, then there is no reason in the world they would "sound" differently. (Even if they did, moving your head or your speakers a few inches would have more effect on what you hear.)

Audiophle magazines lie about this or fool themselves (as to audio fans) beacuse they need something to talk about. Things that actually affect what you hear are generally ignored because you can't buy them (except speakers).

Do yourself a favor and research the issue beyond what you read in forums and magazines. People can't hear difference among even cheap vs. expensive amps. The ones you listed are all just fine and should be judged base on power output per dollar, features, and build quality only.

Nobody? That's a wild claim! You are infinitely familiar with each and every person that may have done such a test? Don't you mean nobody, as far as YOU know? If you do some research yourself, you might find that two guys from Stereophile demonstrated exactly what you're saying "nobody" has done. Not enough trials to be a true demonstration? That's been said before. So now what you mean is that they haven't demonstrated it to YOUR satisfaction. That's quite a bit different from your original half-baked claim.

Audio magazines don't lie or fool themselves. What they do is exaggerate the differences they hear until they become "night and day" differences instead of what my experience tells me they are - slight, subtle, minute. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for your last paragraph, I'd say the first sentence is very good advice, the second sentence is a claim you can't substantiate and the third is only your opinion. I'm not going to say you're wrong because, quite frankly, I think most solid state amps that measure properly and are of adequate power for the speakers DO sound nearly identical. But that's only MY experience and my opinion. So I essentially agree with your basic premise but it's absolutely wrong to think it's an absolute truth, at least at this point.

To the original poster, take Robot Czar's advice and arm yourself with some research knowledge. Then listen carefully, and preferably in a controlled test. Then take your results to the bank and forget what both the "measurements only" crowd and the "night and day" difference crowd tell you. They're both wrong, IMHO. It's true that there is a lot of BS that circulates through the world of audio gear. It appears when someone leans too far to one side. As with many debateable issues, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[mtrycraft]

Nobody? That's a wild claim! You are infinitely familiar with each and every person that may have done such a test? Don't you mean nobody, as far as YOU know? If you do some research yourself, you might find that two guys from Stereophile demonstrated exactly what you're saying "nobody" has done. Not enough trials to be a true demonstration? That's been said before. So now what you mean is that they haven't demonstrated it to YOUR satisfaction. That's quite a bit different from your original half-baked claim.

Audio magazines don't lie or fool themselves. What they do is exaggerate the differences they hear until they become "night and day" differences instead of what my experience tells me they are - slight, subtle, minute. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for your last paragraph, I'd say the first sentence is very good advice, the second sentence is a claim you can't substantiate and the third is only your opinion. I'm not going to say you're wrong because, quite frankly, I think most solid state amps that measure properly and are of adequate power for the speakers DO sound nearly identical. But that's only MY experience and my opinion. So I essentially agree with your basic premise but it's absolutely wrong to think it's an absolute truth, at least at this point.

To the original poster, take Robot Czar's advice and arm yourself with some research knowledge. Then listen carefully, and preferably in a controlled test. Then take your results to the bank and forget what both the "measurements only" crowd and the "night and day" difference crowd tell you. They're both wrong, IMHO. It's true that there is a lot of BS that circulates through the world of audio gear. It appears when someone leans too far to one side. As with many debateable issues, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Are you refering to the large group test with 5 trials? Out of the number of participants just by chance you can expect exactely that result, nothing more of getting 5 out of 5. Besides, it was a very poor test indeed, regardless what they try to claim about it. This may also be the one where the frequency was not level matched, among other things.

So, that one is out of the way. Next?

There is a compilation of amp tests in The Proceedings of the AES 8th International Conference, 1990, page 117-120. 13523 trials prior to that time.

[DMK]

Are you refering to the large group test with 5 trials? Out of the number of participants just by chance you can expect exactely that result, nothing more of getting 5 out of 5. Besides, it was a very poor test indeed, regardless what they try to claim about it. This may also be the one where the frequency was not level matched, among other things.

So, that one is out of the way. Next?

There is a compilation of amp tests in The Proceedings of the AES 8th International Conference, 1990, page 117-120. 13523 trials prior to that time.

Yes, that's the one. Statistical analysis may suggest that the 5/5 was by chance and there could have been other things wrong with the test, no question. But we don't KNOW that the two people didn't or couldn't hear differences. As such, we have to be careful what we claim as fact. For all anyone knows, someone HAS heard differences. But there ain't no "next" as far as I know. There may never be one and there may never have been one. I would bet the farm that even if there are sonic differences in solid state power amps, they are so miniscule that no one could ever be sure they heard them - all the appropriate codicils attached i.e level matched, etc, of course! But I am speculating, the same as anyone is.

You may recall that I participated in some single blind test of SS power amps several years ago. The amps ranged in price from extremely modest to quite expensive. None of us heard even the subtlest of differences. For a group of audiodorks, it was like having our legs cut off! Ever see one of those Springer shows where the male swears he's not the father of his girlfriends child and the test results show he is? Well, the look on those guys faces is the same one we had! Then the protestations began!