Which Amp

[RobotCzar]

One amplifier I can report sounded harsh and bright was an early model made by a company called Acoustech which was later bought out by Koss. It had surprisingly high harmonic distortion for a solid state amplifier running about 1%.

Among vacuum tube amplifiers, even Marantz must have felt that there was a difference in sound because they provided a switch on the Model 8 power amp which allowed the user to switch from pentode to triode operation but with less maximum power (I think the reduction was from 60 watts for the pentode to 40 watts for the triode.

The heart and soul of any audio power amplifer regardless of its type is its power supply. You can often tell a lot about the quality of an amplifier just by how heavy and large it is.

I accept 1% THD as the liimit of audibility (at lower frequencies). An amp with 1% THD into 8 ohms @ 1 KHz probably can be distinguished by golden ears with test tones (don't bet on music). IMHO an amp with 1% THD is not performing properly.

People have demonstrated that they can distinguish tube amps (probably because of freqency response errors due to impediance mismatches). Tube amps are also not "performing properly" according to me (and are therefore excluded from consideration in the question of whether properly performing amps sound different). The fact that some people LIKE the improper performance of tube amps is okay by me, but not good evidence that they sound "better". Why pay extra for an amp with built-in non-adjustable tone control? Most tube amps are simply inferior for a host of reasons beyond sonic inaccuracy (such as the fact that they go out of "alignment" with alarming regularity).

I'm all for good build quality, and I somewhat agree that it coreleates to weight (though manufacturers often fool people by using a heavy case). A good design using proper integrated circuits could be fairly light weight (e.g., the Marantz monoblocks). The problem is; how much am I willing to pay for things that don't affect audible performance? Expected longer life is a crap shoot (I have a SS Yamaha power amp from the early 80s that works just fine). So, if you have the bucks for solid build and great measured performance, go for it--just don't pretend it "sounds better".

I appreciate skeptic even temper. Is he mellowing with age?

[E-Stat]

The heart and soul of any audio power amplifer regardless of its type is its power supply. You can often tell a lot about the quality of an amplifier just by how heavy and large it is.

Indeed. My twenty year old Threshold Stasis amp weighs 50 pounds for 100 watts/channel output. The newer VTLs weight 85 pounds each.

BTW, the Crown DC 300 which is so maligned by audiophiles had a very fast slewing rate and should have had very low TIM. And what about the IC 150 preamplifier. If they sound as good as anything out there, they are the steal of the century...

Absolutely no danger of that being the case. Take a listen some time and weep.

rw

[hertz]

I agree that ideally all amps with the same spec sheet should sound the same. But from my experience this is not true. I have dealer friend who deals in NAD , CA and quite a few estoric brands. I spend a lot of my sunday afternoons at his place. He has a pair of hybrid (electrostat and dynamic ) cadence speakers permenantly setup in his home cum showroom. They are very revealing. Most of the time he will have a different amp connected to them. I have heard LINN CLASIK, marantz, Nad, audio analoque, denon, audio note, creek, cadence, rotel, CA amongst a host of others in his setup.
All of them have signature sound to them. I listen to at least one familiar song and immedately I can make out. Some amps have a shrill top end, some subdued, some have fluid mid frequecies, some shouty, some have a boomy bottom end, some defined and taut, some very warm, some cold and clinical (very icy feel to the sound), some are loud and uncontrolled, some are involving and controlled, well....I can go on and on.
This is my experience. By the way when I evaluate amps, I listen to only audiophile grade Jazz and clasical recordings.Most people I know select amps depending on their music taste. For example, a friend of mine traded in his Nad c 370 (100w/ch) for an audio analogue Puccini (50w/ch) because he is a jazz and classical lover. He found the audio anaogue much more involving, natural and less glare free in his setup with his music. With rock it is a different story. He is a very happy person now.

[RGA]

Hertz

Don't bother - you are preaching to the converted. The most powerful religion is the religion of science misapplied. For serious answers to psychological testing proticol you need to, as I have done, talk to several pychologists in the field of cognitive study - these scientists(engineers are merely doers not scientists) will go over all of the problems of relying on DBT's for real world analysis - there is a lot of profit to be made from the counter-audiophile market but since one calls himself a skeptic(not counting necessarily the poster here) one seems to present themselves as objective(Lot's of money selling Anti-Audiophile magazines - given Tom Nousaine a good prfitable career and the folks at The Audio Critic a good windfall). Mentioning any problem with the test gets a response that I support sighted listening(this has happened often) which goes to sho these people typically jump to conclusions(engineers again do this not scientists).

I was dating a PHD student in Cognitive psychology at the time and I went over this audio argument with her and other members of the student body and faculty - and when you do the same you will understand the foibles that the engineers(or engineer wannabes) here A) don't even know exist or B) know perfectly well they exist but are too self-righteous and arrogant to admit they exist or C) Ignore these issues because they can't be worse than the biases eliminated. A = incompetant don't wate your time talking to them - B = subvert the value of science are dangerous like Scientists who PROVED the notion of Eugenics --- Good ol Hitler Aryan Master Race - or C = Well I can accept their take on the matter.

Think of this - even when the amp is the SAME people will STILL make a selection of A or B in a DBT. Some think that this strengthens their pro dbt stance. Which of course when you talk to the right people in the right field you will gain an understanding the poor dimwits in the field of engineering don't grasp - too bad so sad.

[Pat D]

Hertz

Don't bother - you are preaching to the converted. The most powerful religion is the religion of science misapplied. For serious answers to psychological testing proticol you need to, as I have done, talk to several pychologists in the field of cognitive study - these scientists(engineers are merely doers not scientists) will go over all of the problems of relying on DBT's for real world analysis - there is a lot of profit to be made from the counter-audiophile market but since one calls himself a skeptic(not counting necessarily the poster here) one seems to present themselves as objective(Lot's of money selling Anti-Audiophile magazines - given Tom Nousaine a good prfitable career and the folks at The Audio Critic a good windfall). Mentioning any problem with the test gets a response that I support sighted listening(this has happened often) which goes to sho these people typically jump to conclusions(engineers again do this not scientists).

I was dating a PHD student in Cognitive psychology at the time and I went over this audio argument with her and other members of the student body and faculty - and when you do the same you will understand the foibles that the engineers(or engineer wannabes) here A) don't even know exist or B) know perfectly well they exist but are too self-righteous and arrogant to admit they exist or C) Ignore these issues because they can't be worse than the biases eliminated. A = incompetant don't wate your time talking to them - B = subvert the value of science are dangerous like Scientists who PROVED the notion of Eugenics --- Good ol Hitler Aryan Master Race - or C = Well I can accept their take on the matter.

Think of this - even when the amp is the SAME people will STILL make a selection of A or B in a DBT. Some think that this strengthens their pro dbt stance. Which of course when you talk to the right people in the right field you will gain an understanding the poor dimwits in the field of engineering don't grasp - too bad so sad.

The "I dated someone" argument is not much better than the "my significant other heard the differences when driving up and parking in the garage" argument. Just what did you tell the young lady and just what sorts of relevant things did she say back?

[RGA]

I have been over it before many times and it has went unanswered - My comment was to Hertz and only Hertz and I mentioned his best approach to discoviering the answers to his questions. This is not an attack on the DBT as a tool either - just for him to discuss with people who know how it is being misapplied in this and a great many psychological and certain medical contexts. Her field is focussed on cognitive research in intelligence in children and learning dissabilities where controlled double blind testing HAD often been used and Now being steadily chucked out. The way tests impact subjects alone has been greatly examined over the last few years - music added to the mix now you have a cognitive emotion diameteric opposition. The tool is useful - the tool can be done by most anyone who is careful in any field - controlling variables and what you think you are really testing is another matter.

My answers have been more than satisfied - I will not engage in he said she said because if I get one miniscule thing she and or they said wrong then I will get blasted for it from both sides. And frankly, it will go on and on anyway. I stand by Hi-fi Choice's use of level matched blind panel listening which is not a TEST environment. (The word TEST is but one hint - you go ask em if you were real interested). I am leaving this thread - more important things in life than me worrying whether some guy is happier with a $2000.00 amp over a $49.00 Sanyo ghetto blaster amp section using an $6.00 box to add inputs to it. If the other guy wants to believe the $55.00 unit is better then hey go for it. Some guy claims his 2k amp is the bee's knees and better than the $55.00 ghetto blaster modded unit and some other guy just takes his word for it and buys it well Caveat Emptor. I'm willing to bet the "other" guy in the equation will "feel" he got a better amp and "believe" he got a better amp and may "actually" have gotten a better amp. But tough numnuts if some guy spends $3k on some interconnect because he read a review - if you're that stupid you don't deserve help for DBTers warning them - DBTers should be warning people of the drug companies LACK of evidence to support hundred dollars drugs that have 100% failure rates - and that money changing hands dwarfs the cable makers.

[mtrycraft]

Hertz

Don't bother - you are preaching to the converted. The most powerful religion is the religion of science misapplied. For serious answers to psychological testing proticol you need to, as I have done, talk to several pychologists in the field of cognitive study - these scientists(engineers are merely doers not scientists) will go over all of the problems of relying on DBT's for real world analysis - there is a lot of profit to be made from the counter-audiophile market but since one calls himself a skeptic(not counting necessarily the poster here) one seems to present themselves as objective(Lot's of money selling Anti-Audiophile magazines - given Tom Nousaine a good prfitable career and the folks at The Audio Critic a good windfall). Mentioning any problem with the test gets a response that I support sighted listening(this has happened often) which goes to sho these people typically jump to conclusions(engineers again do this not scientists).

I was dating a PHD student in Cognitive psychology at the time and I went over this audio argument with her and other members of the student body and faculty - and when you do the same you will understand the foibles that the engineers(or engineer wannabes) here A) don't even know exist or B) know perfectly well they exist but are too self-righteous and arrogant to admit they exist or C) Ignore these issues because they can't be worse than the biases eliminated. A = incompetant don't wate your time talking to them - B = subvert the value of science are dangerous like Scientists who PROVED the notion of Eugenics --- Good ol Hitler Aryan Master Race - or C = Well I can accept their take on the matter.

Think of this - even when the amp is the SAME people will STILL make a selection of A or B in a DBT. Some think that this strengthens their pro dbt stance. Which of course when you talk to the right people in the right field you will gain an understanding the poor dimwits in the field of engineering don't grasp - too bad so sad.

I suppose the folks at NRC have no clue? Really?
Please.

I think perhaps you have been talking with the wrong people on this? Sure looks like it.

[mtrycraft]

. I stand by Hi-fi Choice's use of level matched blind panel listening which is not a TEST environment. .

This explains a lot as well. It is not a meaningful test either. No value. Only a surface facade. But, you do have a choice.

[RobotCzar]

I agree that ideally all amps with the same spec sheet should sound the same. But from my experience this is not true. I have dealer friend who deals in NAD , CA and quite a few estoric brands. I spend a lot of my sunday afternoons at his place. He has a pair of hybrid (electrostat and dynamic ) cadence speakers permenantly setup in his home cum showroom. They are very revealing. Most of the time he will have a different amp connected to them. I have heard LINN CLASIK, marantz, Nad, audio analoque, denon, audio note, creek, cadence, rotel, CA amongst a host of others in his setup.
All of them have signature sound to them.....

Please read my post elsewhere regarding the variables that effect what we hear. You seem to have taken no steps to control these variables, so we can't be sure that the amps themselves that are causing the difference you hear.

From your comments we might assume that it is pretty easy hear differences among amps. The probem is that nobody (I have heard of in many year of being an audio fan) has been able to demonstrate that they can when the variables I mention are controlled (eliminated as a source of differences). Because of the repeated failure of people like you (who claim to easily hear differences), I can't simply take your word about this issue.

Discussion about amps is still of interest to audio fans becasue of factors that are audible (e.g., power output) and factors that are not audible but still of interest like build quality and features.