Mytrcraft is an idiot.

[WmAx]

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalso...814/index.html

This is an interesting example of what we are talking about here. Just because we can not measure something with current test equipment dos not mean a difference does not exist.

Perhaps you should specifically quote what portion of text in that article you want to be noticed. It's not practical for someone to read the link in it's entirety just to find the portion you want to be read.

However, since Stereophile and their advertisers(I mean, uhm, manufacturers of the reviwed equipment) does not do controlled human testing on products that actually support claims of audibility made in Stereophile, their opinions on 'sound' of particular components are about as reliable and useful and as anyone else's unsupported claim. About the only 'listening' experiences I might begin to accept as most probably valid are if in a scenario someone claimed that a SET that produced 3 percent or more THD and/or signficant frequency respnose deviations under normal use was very 'different' sounding that most other amplifiers, I would tend to accept this as true since it correlates with known JNDs !!! :-)

-Chris

[Poss]

... this thread has been.
What a waste this whole forum is. All pointless bickering between people with WAY too much time on their hands.

Want to do something REALLY helpful? Volunteer this wasted time to any of the churches, charities or abuse organizations in your neighborhood.

Peregrine Falcons are to be found more often in nature than good, solid advice in this forum. In this field, thorough, intimate, personal experience doubled by a good grasp of acoustic and electronic principles is paramount. Anyone could say anything in a public (more or less) anonymous forum about himself and his experience. The proof however is in the level of maturity and knowledge shown by our posts. I yet have to see someone in this forum acting (acting is is the key word here) like they actually KNOW what they are talking about.

At the end of the day we're just a bunch of arguing morons with internet connections and no other serious interests. I for one have learned more in my last 6 years of listening and enjoying my LP and (smaller) CD collection (remember enjoying the music?; what a concept!) than in 4 years of lurking and sporadic posting in this forum.

All the advice here is worth exactly the price you're paying for it.

Thats my 2 Canadian cents.

Peace! (if at all possible)

[k fonseka]

Your blanket statement that japanese prouducts are crap suggest to me that you have a few brain cells missing yourself. I have owned a lot of audio gear over the years both japanese and non japanese. None of the Japanese products ever needed repairs while some of the non japanese "Audiophile" gear needed trips back to the dealer more than once. ( same goes for japanese cars - I own a Mitsubishi that has 190,000 km and still runs well and is very reliable )
As far as sound quality goes they do make some excellent products - you just have to look for it.

I agree with you that certain CD players do sound different. In particular I was able to reliablly pick out Pionner legato link, wadia (digimaster) and sony (Using switchable spline filter) under single blind conditions on different occations - compared to other players using the standard brick wall filters. There is a good scientific reason for this. These filters roll of the top end and are down by about 3db at 20khz.(they are also known as eqi ripple filters and behave better in the time domain but i dont know if this effect is audible) I happen to like this effect and use a Sony XBE 930E which has a switchable digital filter which mimics the pioneer/wadia filters. I wish i found about this long ago and would have saved myself a bit of money by getting off the "Upgrade ladder" as I was never satisfied with the CD sound previously. I picked on this player as it underwent Blind listening panel tests in a UK magazine called hifi choice and came out tops compared some very expensive machinary . HIFI choice regularly conducts blind listening panel group tests under rigerous level matched conditions (single blind only) and usually with some suprising results. Since to my knowledge they have not tesed cabled under blind conditions I can only assume the differences are minute if any.If you are serious about audio I suggest you give it a read as they do some rigeros testing including loudspeaker distorsion measurements - which i belive no one else does.

Lastly enjoy your hobby - no need to get your BP up - it is only a hobby

[996turbo]

well said post. You are corect in my blanket statement being wrong. I personally own a bunch of Sony. I really do enjoy their products. I was primarily refering to the mass market expendable stuff.

[psonic]

Mytrcraft is entitled to his opinion, as we are

Problem is..

Mytrcraft continually discounts the opinions and experiences of members here as imagining things or not in reality, without specifying why or what his experiences are with gear - hence, hi-fi is a myth

Mytrcraft is blinded into thinking a reciever or cd player made in china with $10 in parts sounds as good as any gear available

Mytrcraft is obviously biased against buying something that is not available at Walmart or the like

Mytrcraft believes serious home listeners, and for that matter even professionals in the music / studio industry are delusional and igorant and wasting money

Mytrcraft will not reveal what hi-fi gear he owns or has listened to or demoed, making it obvious the answer is none - I have asked him in the past

I couldn't resist going here Mytrcraft...Are you also under the impression that all beer tastes the same and Budwieser is as good as any beer? How can we prove it does or doesn't taste same? Even though different ingredients, how do we prove it tastes different? Are we just imagining it?

In Mytrcraft world we all go buy our $99 receiver and multi-player, the cheapest speakers and wires and go happily home knowing we have the best audio gear we can buy and the best audio our ears and minds can distinguish since all components sound the same and anything else is just imagination anyway...

hehehe

hehehe

hehehe

[WmAx]

Mytrcraft is blinded into thinking a reciever or cd player made in china with $10 in parts sounds as good as any gear available

Mytrcraft is obviously biased against buying something that is not available at Walmart or the like

Really? Please point me to the specific posts. "ANY" is a pretty broad claim. I was under the impression he meant "Any properely designed equipment". Where did he proclaim to be biased, or insinuate he was biased against anything not available at Wal-Mart?

Mytrcraft will not reveal what hi-fi gear he owns or has listened to or demoed, making it obvious the answer is none - I have asked him in the past

More wild speculation?

In Mytrcraft world we all go buy our $99 receiver and multi-player, the cheapest speakers and wires and go happily home knowing we have the best audio gear we can buy and the best audio our ears and minds can distinguish since all components sound the same and anything else is just imagination anyway...

Just a suggestion: read the complete posts over time from user mtrycrafts ---- you may find you are not being accurate in your summary. Or perhaps you are just exaggerating in order to make yourself appear justified?

-Chris

[996turbo]

Really? Please point me to the specific posts. "ANY" is a pretty broad claim. I was under the impression he meant "Any properely designed equipment". Where did he proclaim to be biased, or insinuate he was biased against anything not available at Wal-Mart?


More wild speculation?


Just a suggestion: read the complete posts over time from user mtrycrafts ---- you may find you are not being accurate in your summary. Or perhaps you are just exaggerating in order to make yourself appear justified?

-Chris

So what exactly is properly designed equipment? Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right. Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital amps. The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound. This is the thing he does not grasp.

[WmAx]

So what exactly is properly designed equipment?

For example, a CD player that has a noise/thd figure at or near the 96dB limit of RBCD, an even frequency response within 0.25dB up to 18khz, sufficient oversampling/upsampling and filter implementation to not produce audible transient byproducts in the audible band, etc.

Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right.

This depends on the objective. If the objective is transparency(which is usually teh declaration), then simply staying within paremeters that prevent audible distortions/artifacts from being present.

Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital amps

It is possible for any of these to have an even frequency response under the load of a loudspeaker, have excellent noise and distortion figures. All are examples of doing the same thing by way of a different path. Examples that have significantly audible deviations, I woudl consider improperly designed. FOr example, Stereophile recently reviewed a SET tube amp by Antique Sound Labs. This unit has specifications that were so poor, that it is really an example of incompetant engineering. Laughable. 10 percent THD at it's rated power output. AMplitude deviations of more than a dB under speaker loads,e tc. THis unit must have audible artifacts, since the problems occur at and over JND figures taht are well known as being within audilbe levels.

The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound.

They should not. That should be the objective. But, some do, that is a fact. Then, the matter is, is this sound a byproduct of real, substantiatable phemonema or just the imagination, as a byproduct of subconscious stimuli? If the designer did the best possible, relevant to the current state of technology, and their budjet for the design to produce a device as close to ideal as I specified above, then I'll consider it properely designed.

-Chris

[mtrycraft]

Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right. Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital amps. The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound. This is the thing he does not grasp.

Actually, it is you who doesn't or cannot grasp the reality of the audioworld.
You have no evidence that different design approaches have their own sound, unless they are designed to be euphonic on purpose, in which case, that component is not competently designed and is considered broken.

Many have been waiting for decades for your wisdom but you offer no evidence, so we still wait.

[skeptic]

Generally the straightforward approach works best. Especially when it is applied at a high level of design and manufacture.

The sound of tube amplifiers is mediocre because of the limitations of the output transformer. Take away the transformer and they sound pretty much like the best solid state units. Add a transformer to a fine solid state amplifier it sounds like a tube amplifier.

The best amplifiers have huge well regulated power supplies and most are solid state. They can deliver plenty of power across the entire audio spectrum and the designer knew exactly how to apply negative feedback in a way that takes full advantage of its strengths while not compromising performance in any way. I will soon be looking at Crown CE-1000-A3 myself as an outstanding performer and an outstanding value.

A fine cd player for only $10? Why not when they are made in quantities of the hundreds of millions and even in the billions.

When products have matured to the point where they perform their function just about perfectly, no further performance improvement is detectable or usable. Consumer preference becomes a matter of bells and whistles and sometimes, some people prefer deviation from optimum performance. Such as with tube amplifiers. That's the genius of marketing. Less product, more money. It's about psychology, not technology.

[996turbo]

Mytrcraft,

Everything in this world can not as of yet be proven by science. Ask a doctor detailed questions about how stem cells work and you will get only questions. Ask an astromomer how many stars are in the Galaxy you will get only speculation. Ask many questions and there are only questions. We are at the beginning of digital and electrical engineering. The point is that we do not even understand completely how upsampling works. I guess that in the end when we have perfect circuit topology and there is a perfect product they will sound alike. But at this point in time there is no perfection due to the engineers and products being far from perfect. There are audible differences in gear due to I guess you would call imperfections in engineering. Maybe the designer liked that sound with the given components he chose. This is the premise of spectral. They say they are at the limits of engineering with their speed. It is nieve of you to say thet all components are the same that would under your own rules say that the components are perfect. There is no perfection in life and that is why the different ideologies in gear design sound different.

[E-Stat]

When products have matured to the point where they perform their function just about perfectly, no further performance improvement is detectable or usable.

Let's all hear it for the Hyundai Elantra!

rw

[skeptic]

I see you are NOT and automotive engineer either.

[E-Stat]

I see you are NOT and automotive engineer either.

No, I'm a software engineer who enjoys high performance cars and bikes. My favorite engineers are the Honda guys who got all three podium places yesterday at the MotoGP and fourth and eighth at the F1. But then again, Hyundai could take on Honda or Ferrari if they really wanted to. NOT!

rw

[psonic]

"A fine cd player for only $10? Why not when they are made in quantities of the hundreds of millions and even in the billions. "

Not true newer stuff is about profits, lighter, cheaper faster = better for Sony or whoever is marketing the player. That is all they care about. What does a cheap player get you shortcuts, improvises, compromises. Just like their inexpensive receivers just full of compromises. Do you normally see a receiver advertised as having a toroid transformer or discrete circuitry or 4ohm drive capability? No it’s not cheap or fast to build that…Do you actually think Panasonic or Sony give a hoots tail about sound quality when it comes to inexpensive gear? The only thing advanced about the mass market product is 100’s more ways to make it cheaper.

Well case in point, I have a $400 cd player from around 93, the Rotel RCD855, I bought it used for much less. It is heavier than some integrated amps I've seen, with a large power supply inside and good quality components and heavy casing. Well you engineers here should know all this but, a cd player has basically 4 stages the transport, the Digital stage and the analog stage and the power supply. All cd players are going to offer a varying degree of quality / compromises at each stage. Yes / no? How much do you really know? Are you aware of such things as Chassis vibration reduction, jitter reduction, internal noise reduction, DAC, clock, opamps, capacitors, power supply components, muting transistors? How well do YOU know the internal layout of a CD player? I am not sure you do at all if you consider them all basically equal, not considering compromises to any of the mentioned sections.

Plain and simple my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp. Can I prove it to you? No I don't even care to, but I will tell you how ignorant you are on some views. Are you not aware that everything we buy in this world varies in quality or performance or physical makeup? Truth is there is no black and white, right or wrong with CD players or anything we buy for that matter. Nothing in this world has been perfected to 100% efficiency as far as I know. And fwiw I do agree with you on high priced cables, that is a big scam for sure. Especially to those who spend $1000’s on essentially wire. I use home depot 12g outdoor power cord & radio shack interconnects. IME returns diminish fast with cables. This has not been the case with CD players amps or preamps for me, so you can see I am not biased simply because of price or name.

I am truly sorry mtrycraft & friends but the shortcomings in the cheap gear you advocate can only be seen once next to a reference point. And I am only talking about CD Players used to output an analog signal, If you output digitally to a receiver, then CD players may sound the same. However there are those of us that need them to do well in analog and this is where too they really vary in both type of components used, quality of components used, number of compromises in the analog output stage and such as mentioned above. These are facts mtrycraft, this is not imagination or myth, man. Again, get to some hi-fi shops and listen to some gear, even if you have no plans on buying, maybe even bring your player in to A/B or blind test. If you want to make the test parameters stricter ask the dealer to do an in home demo, they will usually let you use for the weekend. Are you just bashing HIFI because you can't afford it or are too frugal to consider that something better? I hope not, there are plenty of used venues for good sounding gear.

ROTEL RSP-960AX Preamp
NAD 2600A 150wpc
Rotel RCD855 CD
Dynaudio Audience 60’s

[skeptic]

"my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp."

Minor differences in the analog frequency response of a cd player are insignificant especially in a world where effective equalizers are also very inexpensive and widely available. I've noticed these minor differences too and have completely discounted them. Besides, by your criteria, you have no way to know between the two players which one is more accurate. Without measurements you have no way to know if the Sony mega changer isn't flat and the Rotel has a deliberate slight boost at both frequency extremes to make customers think it is somehow better. That's most likely the case.

[psonic]

You are still refusing to accept some things in life are superior to others! The megachanger sounds shrill, thin and congested, meaning the intruments are out of focus and hard to pic out. Same with the dvd player. Not with the rotel, trust me it it was not better, I would gladly trade it for the convenience of the CD megachanger.

Its a mass produced pile of compromises, a real lightweight literally and figuratively...not so with the rotel.

You are the one being fooled my friend, if you beleive for 1 minute that the big names care about sound. You are the one fooled by marketing and gimmicks.

Again, go listen and see....

[psonic]

from what I've heard on these boards, YOU are adept with electronics (at least theory) so you should easily understand the components I mentioned. Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality? Come on...

[Resident Loser]

...who, due to limited distribution, have a certain mystique and cache. While casting no aspersions on the product, Rotel, NAD and others come to mind...seeems like all the upper-echelon audio "shoppes" rely on this fact...

It is well nigh impossible to do any side-by-side comparo with others in that group...manufacturers rarely allow head to head competition, as it might reveal they are reasonably interchangeable.

So when it comes to mass-produced products, high-end retailers have a similar philosophy...they dismiss it all as just so many "appliances"...as do the self-proclaimed audiophiles.

In a side-by-side demo, all things being equal, you would be surprised at the performance levels of some of what you consider "lesser" gear.

jimHJJ(..."fooled by marketing and gimmicks"...???...whoa, Nellie...)

[996turbo]

I have an NAD 2100 that I bought while in college. My current amp is Plinius SA-250. A friend brought over the Bel Canto EVo 6. There were distinct differences in the amps. When the NAD was in the line it did sound pretty good until you gave it some volume. I did not do any fancy comparisons just played one and then the next. We did level match with an SPL meter though. These are three hugely different amps and they each sounded very different. I know this wil not be believed by some, but all there heard differences.

I guess it is kind of like pizza They all do the same thing (feed you). There are just lots of different flavors. One may not be better than the next but with a certain setup one will complement the desired sound better. I believe this is a better way to get my sound than an eq. Unless that eq is something like the Cello Pallette where a tremendous amount of time and care put into the piece so there was no signal loss through all the extra circuits.

This has been such a rediculous grouping of threads. I know I heard a difference in the above amps. Anyone telling me I didn't is wrong. There are too many components in an amp or cd player to say they are all the same. I understand that you guys say they all measure the same, but just because the current test equipment can not detect a difference thatdoes not mean one does not exist. From what I have seen all equipment has different outputs, different slew rates, current outputs and many other differences.

Have you ever been to the store to buy paint and asked for white paint? you will find that there are lots of white. Which one is really white. If you saw them individually they would all appear white, but next to each other they are all different colors.

Audio is similiar they are all trying to do the same thing but there are differences. You will say that we can measure the ingredients in the paints to see what the differences are. I would say the same about audio. An amp is the sum of its parts. there is no absolute standard as to what "well designed" is. Every manufacturer thinks their product is well designed or else it would not last.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I did not realize that mtrycrafts claimed to be the "all knowing god of audio". However, he does insist someone try to be logical. That's all he does. He provides a myriad of references to support his point(s) of view, unlike most people. Is this do diffifult(look at things logically and research) to do? What in the hell instigated this stupid thread in the first place??? I believe this thread should be deleted---the original poster suspended from his account for specific malicous intent of a person. Of course, no moderator to be found around these here parts....

-Chris

Chris,

I don't think Mtrycraft makes the claim of being "all knowing god of audio" but his behavior does implicate that. I actually record audio for a living, and have been doing so for about 20 years now. In spite of this(and his never having recording a single performance of anything for that matter) he can find himself challenging me on things I have been doing forever seemingly. He says what he knows is fact, however the consensus of the great majority that work in my industry completely disagree with his assertions. He says provide evidence, and when you do, he discounts it as irrelevant.

In the industry I work in, there are facts being disputed every day. Internet references are woefully behind the industry current events. White papers are published, and the facts of these papers disputed by others. The best that any audio engineer can do under these conditions is talk to other engineers and compare information. Often these exchanges are not public or published.

It is terribly difficult to explain why you do what you do to a person who has no experience or hands on knowledge of what you are talking about. Access to AES papers and carefully reading them doesn't garantee that you know all there is to know about the recording arts. Hell, I have been DOING this 20 years, and I am still learning.

I sometimes feel he takes an opposing opinion because he can, not because it is necessary. Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title

[skeptic]

"Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title"

If you think he is bluffing, why don't you call his bluff? I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are. And they don't like it. He does not let people get away with blanket statements that are unsupported and fly in the face of scientific research and logic no matter how much advertising it got. Namecalling will never win any arguement. Not even here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp."

Minor differences in the analog frequency response of a cd player are insignificant especially in a world where effective equalizers are also very inexpensive and widely available. I've noticed these minor differences too and have completely discounted them. Besides, by your criteria, you have no way to know between the two players which one is more accurate. Without measurements you have no way to know if the Sony mega changer isn't flat and the Rotel has a deliberate slight boost at both frequency extremes to make customers think it is somehow better. That's most likely the case.

As I have replied once before to your statements. Eq is not an answer to a components frequency response problems. The use of eq in this fashion constitutes a complete misuse. Eq is for use for room problems, not equipment or recording problems. Using it for anything other than room correction will certainly result in more problems than a cure.

Whatever setting you use on a EQ will effect the entire sound of the system. If the room is not the problem, change the component rather than using eq as a fix.

[996turbo]

I will and have offered to do a test between components in my house. name the day and the time and I will arrange for a plethora of components. I have tried for Zapped but he will not return my e-mails. I love listening to different gear. lets do it!!!! I have five amps and three cd players at my house and could put my hands on lots more from friends. We can do whatever test you guys want and then you can write about it.

I am calling the bluff!!!!!!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title"

If you think he is bluffing, why don't you call his bluff? I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are. And they don't like it. He does not let people get away with blanket statements that are unsupported and fly in the face of scientific research and logic no matter how much advertising it got. Namecalling will never win any arguement. Not even here.

This gets the biggest whatever imagineable. When one provides facts,links, and experience this is discounted. How does one effectively mount a challenge when the person thinks only HIS facts are correct? I never presented blanket statements, and science does not know it all. If they did, they would not be backtracking or correcting every discovery they have made. Mr Skeptic, you have said some pretty questionable things yourself. What proof do you have that eq is a effective correction tool for the analog output of a CD player?