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  1. #1
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Romney CRUSHES Obama

    Whereas I figured that Mitt the Chameleon would do better that hold his own, I was surprised at how totally he dominated last night's domestic issues debate. Romney kept the President continually on the defensive and unable to get across coherent rebuttals or counter ideas.

    Looks like Romney's "zinger" practice paid off. He was able to ream off endless specious statistics and the usual appeals to "liberty", the infallibility of private enterprise, incompetence of government, etc., and Obama might as well have remained mute.

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    not gonna change the outcome much. There are still less Haves than Have Nots

  3. #3
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    I couldn't watch it. My mind's made up already. I was afraid my guy would flop or blunder. To see something like that would've been too depressing. But I kind of expected a tie or at least an argument over who won. If the next debate is on foreign policy, then there won't be much chance of a rebound on domestic issues until the last debate. Meanwhile, fact-checkers and real journalists may expose that Romney's debate win wasn't a win at all. Who are these undecideds anyway?

  4. #4
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dean_martin View Post
    I couldn't watch it. My mind's made up already. I was afraid my guy would flop or blunder. To see something like that would've been too depressing. But I kind of expected a tie or at least an argument over who won. If the next debate is on foreign policy, then there won't be much chance of a rebound on domestic issues until the last debate. Meanwhile, fact-checkers and real journalists may expose that Romney's debate win wasn't a win at all. Who are these undecideds anyway?
    I wonder what the fact checkers will find that mine Romney? My bet his that most of facts & stats last night were well research and defensible -- which doesn't mean they're pertinent or that they can't be differently interpreted,of course.

    PolitiFact has made some calls: see HERE.

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    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    not gonna change the outcome much. There are still less Haves than Have Nots
    Well I guess a lot of people have made up their minds long since and won't change them.

    You can quibble about the details all you like, but the basic Romney (+ Ryan) plan is still (1) "trickle down" from the rich to the middle clas which has been proven not work over the last 30 years, and (2) austerity (spending cuts) that was proven not to during the Great Depression and is currently being proven not to work everyday in European countries such as Greece, Spain, Britain, and Portugal.

    No amount of fast talking is going to make these ill-conceived policies work.

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    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    I wonder what the fact checkers will find that mine Romney? My bet his that most of facts & stats last night were well research and defensible -- which doesn't mean they're pertinent or that they can't be differently interpreted,of course.

    PolitiFact has made some calls: see HERE.
    Let me try this again. I hate posting from my phone. I was thinking along the lines of Romney's inconsistencies. You don't have to dig too deep to find those. What he's saying now is not that different from what the president is saying. The bottom line is who do you believe.

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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dean_martin View Post
    Let me try this again. I hate posting from my phone. I was thinking along the lines of Romney's inconsistencies. You don't have to dig too deep to find those. What he's saying now is not that different from what the president is saying. The bottom line is who do you believe.
    Neither. Can we wipe the slate clean and start over?
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    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Obama style makes him a lousy debater. However if one remembers, Clinton was a better debater than Obama, and that did not help her win the nomination.

    Most people have already made up their minds. The small amount of people that are left are not going to make a decision based on a single debate.

    I will say this to Romney. You beat Obama this time, but be careful about a wounded animal - they can be lethal when surviving for their life.
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    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    Neither. Can we wipe the slate clean and start over?
    Hey, GM. Did Romney lay out his plans on immigration reform during the debate? Like I said, I didn't watch it, but the few reports I've read and heard either didn't mention immigration or said that immigration was not discussed. I know this issue is important to your family. Whether you're for strict enforcement of immigration laws or some other plan, it's hard to tell where Romney is today as opposed to where he stood during the nomination process.

    Likewise, I have no idea where he stands on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. I hear what he's saying now, which is that he's going to save Medicare and Social Security and block grant Medicaid, but I don't trust him or his running mate on Medicare and Social Security (based on their own proposals in the very recent past) and I know too many families with kids on Medicaid and parents and grandparents in nursing homes to trust any kind of block grant to MY state (AL). The idiots in my state legislature talk about turning down federal monies in the name of states' rights, but if they got federal monies with no strings attached, they'd blow it trying to lure auto and airplane manufacturers to the state while sickly kids spread germs all over schools and die and nursing homes shut down and turn the elderly and infirmed into the streets. Besides, they wouldn't put any money into educating the local work force (and the up and coming work force) to prepare for the jobs such manufacturers would bring. They'd continue their war on teachers and the public schools.

    The Romney ticket has already told us that Social Security is not going to be the same for my generation under their plan. I'm 44. Except for my first year in college and my first semester in law school, I've worked continuously since I was 16. That's almost 28 years. But I'll have to wait longer to retire than my dad did to get my maximum benefits. (It's really an entitlement rather than a benefit because I've paid into it and I've relied on a promise.) That's going backwards. I expect my kids to have it easier than I did. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they're lazier. It's my duty to make it easier for them than it was for me. Of course if I'm a financial burden on them when I'm an old geezer, I've failed. If they have to work longer and harder than I did, then my generation has failed their generation. "Hard work" shouldn't mean people have to run themselves into the ground until their 70 or dead. Oh, and Wall Street cannot wait to get its hands on the Social Security Trust Fund. It will mean more money to play with and big bonuses even if the stock market crashes and the fund goes bust. If the White House and the right number of Congressional seats align, privatization of Social Security could happen.

    And this outrage over the numbers on food stamps? Give me a break. What do you expect in a recession - number of people on food stamps remains constant or goes down? Please don't insult my intelligence. My family was on WIC when we were just starting out and I was working as a file clerk for the FBI. We needed it to survive. Baby stuff is expensive. I don't regret it and I'm not embarassed about it. Heck, now I think it's kind of funny (ironic, maybe?) that I was working for the government and getting government assistance at the same time.

    And politicians telling us companies aren't hiring because of "economic uncertainty" while the largest companies are holding onto more accumulated capital than ever before? Who's creating the uncertainty, if that's true? The government or the companies holding onto capital which they once invested back into their businesses?

    When you're sitting at the table trying to get the upper hand in a business deal, profit is the ultimate goal and the ends jusitfy the means. For that, Romney may be the man. But in that scenario, the playing field is level. The person across the table can hire the best lawyers, consultants, etc. if they want to. But according to Romney, 47% of the American people will be sitting across the table from him if he's president and they don't stand a chance.

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    I'm going with Ron Paul...I know he doesn't stand a Snowball's Chance, but at least I won't feel compelled to take a couple of showers when I come home from my polling place.

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    RGA
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    If the same people vote the democrats will win even if Romney is the better showman - con-men usually are good showmen.
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    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    If the same people vote the democrats will win even if Romney is the better showman - con-men usually are good showmen.
    Yes, Romney spoke may half-truths and non-truths. Sadly, Obama didn't call him on very many. But the really interesting thing is how Romney backed away from major Right-wing doctrines.

    E.g., to paraphrase:

    Obama: Your tax plan will cut tax revenues buy $4 Trillion. [Which is the math based on what Romney had disclosed.]

    Romney: No! My plan is revenue neutral! I'm going to eliminate loopholes.

    Obama: Well ... err, uhmm ... which loopholes?

    Romney: I'm for jobs, jobs, jobs!

  13. #13
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    I thought the President made some excellent comments about healthcare and the need to curb healthcare costs.

    Other than that, it was pretty one-sided.


    Lol, "Mr. President, you can have your own house and you can have your own plane but you can't have your own facts..."

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    I thought the President made some excellent comments about healthcare and the need to curb healthcare costs.

    Other than that, it was pretty one-sided.


    Lol, "Mr. President, you can have your own house and you can have your own plane but you can't have your own facts..."
    I still don't know whether it's clear to many Americans that the Medicare funding predicament is caused by two factors:

    * Ageing populations -- though this is much less a problem in the USA than Japan or Europe
    * Overall healthcare costs that are rising at multiples of inflation in the USA.

    The first problem is unavoidable. The second is largely avoidable given the political will.

    Various other countries have controlled cost much better by determining which procedures, drugs, etc., are cost effective and limiting those which are relatively less so. This is what the board of experts, so criticized by Romney, would do; (note that the board wouldn't make individual treatment decisions).

    By contrast ,the USA's system is a largely for-profit system. In the case of healthcare, neither the patient nor the health provider are incented to control costs which born instead, given most people have some insurance, by the insurance provider. Expensive and/or relatively cost ineffective procedures are of then demanded because they are new or trendy.

    Insurance providers in some instances try to control cost using HMOs and the like, but more generally just raise premiums to cover the services demanded. The healthcare "consumer choice" in healthcare, so vaunted by the for-profit healthcare industry, (insurers & providers), is the direct cause of soaring healthcare costs in the US.

    BTW, voucherize Medicare would turn much decision making over to for-profit insurance company -- a further retreat from rational, cost-effective healthcare.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyY51 View Post
    I'm going with Ron Paul...I know he doesn't stand a Snowball's Chance, but at least I won't feel compelled to take a couple of showers when I come home from my polling place.
    i dont believe that the political differences between Obama and Romney are significant, and even though Ron Paul is different, i dont think he's a better choice.

    regardless, the election for the presidency is just a glorified popularity contest and is less important than who we elect to the Congress. Congress can control the Executive Branch, and if we (as in we the people) elected the right people to Congress, we would control both.
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  16. #16
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    How about that Biden? I thought he did what he needed to do to expose the fallacies and injustices in the Romney-Ryan economic plan.

    I can't believe Ryan sat there and said he wants to lower Social Security benefits for his own generation when we reach retirement (which will be 70 instead of 67). I'm practically the same age as he is. I do not understand why he wouldn't work to preserve equal benefits for all rather than stealing from a generation that's been paying into the system for 25 to 35 years already. In fact, it's our duty to make things better for future generations, not worse. But let me rephrase. I DO believe HE said that. It's obvious that the hardline Republican agenda is to end government benefits of all kinds. When the Repubs pretend to be concerned about leaving debt to our kids and grandkids what they are really saying is they will not be paying for social security or any other government benefit for our kids and grandkids. They don't give a crap about future generations of Americans. I cannot remember such an attack on the most vulnerable in my lifetime. The current Republican leadership is determined to step on the necks of the poor and middle class to increase the number of have-nots in this country and further centralize control of money. Let's apply free market concepts to not just goods and services but also to the human condition. Consider this when you're trying to convince yourself that there's no real difference between the parties. Why isn't the 35-55 year old demographic which has been paying into the social security retirement system for years speaking out against this republican philosophy? Are they too obsessed over a couple hundred dollars in food stamps going to a single mother, or a couple extra weeks of unemployment benefits going to an out-of-work construction worker? Or maybe they're concerned about abortion on demand, contraception and same sex marriage? Illegal immigrants? Sometimes I just wanna yell, "Wake up dumbasses!" This is gonna be a miserable place if we fall for all the bull****, or what Biden called "mularkey".

  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I couldn't bring myself to what the Biden-Ryan debate. I'm sick of the continual spin from both sides but especially from the Republicans. Most egregious are the "statistics" and supposed historical examples that are, in the first place, dubious, and after that, disingenuous or irrelevant misrepresentations.

    I've been an observer of US politics for ~45 years. Going back to Reagan, and maybe Goldwater, the only real agenda of the Republican insiders has been to lower taxes and create other breaks for the rich -- even if they are to run deficits to do it, and that has been the continual record.

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    I watched bits and pieces but each time I flipped to it, Ryan was avoiding details as to how the math could possibly add up. Although Biden can be a total ass at times, he ate Ryan up without a problem.

  19. #19
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    Lol....

    I had to talk a LOT of my prgoressive and Democratic friends in off ledges after the first debate. I'm a registered Independent. I think neither party has a monopoly on whats "right" for the the country. I've voted for Republicans in the past and voted for Democrats in the past. I'da voted for McCain in 2000 but Rove and Company had other ideas and soo... fast forward to this political season. These are my observations.

    1. In our quest for all entertainment all the time... our debates are now allegories for bloodsport. You can't make a point or have a civil discourse now it's winner take all, zingers and alike. It's devolved into a gian dick-measuring contest and that's sad... sad to see.

    2. Fightin is in rounds. I'd rather lose early like O'bama did than late.. The average American attention span is that of a knat. I predict less permanent damage in the long run.

    3. Incumbents always do poorly in the debates in that they've acutally had to govern for the last 4 years and their opponents can pick apart every move with 20/20 hindsight.

    4. Obama does NOT have a combative nature. He can pull on the mantle but it is not "in-him". He quite simply would rather talk than fight. Romney is not a fighter either, in the traditional sense of the word, but he does have the inate ruthlessness of the modern brand of predator capitalist this nation breeds by the millions.

    5. Obama was trying to avoid the stigma of the "angry black male" and he took it tooooo far. Simple I had to explain this in detail to my white friends... I don't think they quite got it. But hey.... a grin and a smile... grin and a smile...

    Well enough of this... Be good everyone and GO RAIDERS!!!!

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    Aint Nothin But a Movie

    Well, the first thing I want to say is..."Mandate my ass!"
    Because it seems as though we've been convinced that 26% of the registered voters, not even 26% of the American people, but 26% of the registered voters form a mandate or a landslide. 21% voted for Skippy and 3, 4% voted for somebody else who might have been running.

    But, oh yeah, I remember. In this year that we have now declared the year from Shogun to Reagan, I remember what I said about Reagan...meant it. Acted like an actor...Hollyweird. Acted like a liberal. Acted like General Franco when he acted like governor of California, then he acted like a republican. Then he acted like somebody was going to vote for him for president. And now we act like 26% of the registered voters is actually a mandate. We're all actors in this I suppose.

    What has happened is that in the last 20 years, America has changed from a producer to a consumer. And all consumers know that when the producer names the tune...the consumer has got to dance. That's the way it is. We used to be a producer very inflexible at that, and now we are consumers and, finding it difficult to understand. Natural resources and minerals will change your world. The Arabs used to be in the 3rd World. They have bought the 2nd World and put a firm down payment on the 1st one. Controlling your resources will control your world. This country has been surprised by the way the world looks now. They don't know if they want to be Matt Dillon or Bob Dylan. They don't know if they want to be diplomats or continue the same policy - of nuclear nightmare diplomacy. John Foster Dulles ain't nothing but the name of an airport now.

    The idea concerns the fact that this country wants nostalgia. They want to go back as far as they can even if it's only as far as last week. Not to face now or tomorrow, but to face backwards. And yesterday was the day of our cinema heroes riding to the rescue at the last possible moment. The day of the man in the white hat or the man on the white horse - or the man who always came to save America at the last moment someone always came to save America at the last moment especially in "B" movies. And when America found itself having a hard time facing the future, they looked for people like John Wayne. But since John Wayne was no longer available, they settled for Ronald Reagan and it has placed us in a situation that we can only look at like a "B" movie.

    Come with us back to those inglorious days when heroes weren't zeros. Before fair was square. When the cavalry came straight away and all-American men were like Hemingway to the days of the wondrous "B" movie. The producer underwritten by all the millionaires necessary will be Casper "The Defensive" Weinberger no more animated choice is available. The director will be Attila the Haig, running around frantically declaring himself in control and in charge. The ultimate realization of the inmates taking over at the asylum. The screenplay will be adapted from the book called "Voodoo Economics" by George "Papa Doc" Bush. Music by the "Village People" the very military "Macho Man."

    "Company!!!"
    "Macho, macho man!"
    "Two-three-four."
    "He likes to be well, you get the point."
    "Huuut! Your left! Your left! Your left...right, left, right, left, right...!"

    A theme song for saber-rallying and selling wars door-to-door. Remember, we're looking for the closest thing we can find to John Wayne. Cliches abound like kangaroos courtesy of some spaced out Marlin Perkins, a Reagan contemporary. Cliches like, "itchy trigger finger" and "tall in the saddle" and "riding off or on into the sunset." Cliches like, "Get off of my planet by sundown!" More so than cliches like, "he died with his boots on." Marine tough the man is. Bogart tough the man is. Cagney tough the man is. Hollywood tough the man is. Cheap steak tough. And Bonzo's substantial. The ultimate in synthetic selling: A Madison Avenue masterpiece a miracle a cotton-candy politician...Presto! Macho!

    "Macho, macho man!"

    Put your orders in America. And quick as Kodak your leaders duplicate with the accent being on the dupe - cause all of a sudden we have fallen prey to selective amnesia - remembering what we want to remember and forgetting what we choose to forget. All of a sudden, the man who called for a blood bath on our college campuses is supposed to be Dudley "God-damn" Do-Right?

    "You go give them liberals hell Ronnie." That was the mandate. To the new "Captain Bly" on the new ship of fools. It was doubtlessly based on his chameleon performance of the past - as a liberal democrat as the head of the Studio Actor's Guild. When other celluloid saviors were cringing in terror from McCarthy Ron stood tall. It goes all the way back from Hollywood to hillbilly. From liberal to libelous, from "Bonzo" to Birch idol...born again. Civil rights, women's rights, gay rights...it's all wrong. Call in the cavalry to disrupt this perception of freedom gone wild. God damn it...first one wants freedom, then the whole damn world wants freedom.

    Nostalgia, that's what we want...the good ol' days...when we gave'em hell. When the buck stopped somewhere and you could still buy something with it. To a time when movies were in black and white and so was everything else. Even if we go back to the campaign trail, before six-gun Ron shot off his face and developed hoof-in-mouth. Before the free press went down before full-court press. And were reluctant to review the menu because they knew the only thing available was Crow.

    Lon Chaney, our man of a thousand faces - no match for Ron. Doug Henning does the make-up - special effects from Grecian Formula 16 and Crazy Glue. Transportation furnished by the David Rockefeller of Remote Control Company. Their slogan is, "Why wait for 1984? You can panic now...and avoid the rush."

    So much for the good news...

    As Wall Street goes, so goes the nation. And here's a look at the closing numbers racism's up, human rights are down, peace is shaky, war items are hot - the House claims all ties. Jobs are down, money is scarce and common sense is at an all-time low with heavy trading. Movies were looking better than ever and now no one is looking because, we're starring in a "B" movie. And we would rather have John Wayne...we would rather have John Wayne.

    "You don't need to be in no hurry.
    You ain't never really got to worry.
    And you don't need to check on how you feel.
    Just keep repeating that none of this is real.
    And if you're sensing, that something's wrong,
    Well just remember, that it won't be too long
    Before the director cuts the scene...yea."

    "This ain't really your life,
    Ain't really your life,
    Ain't really ain't nothing but a movie."

    [Refrain repeated about 25 times or more in an apocalyptic crescendo with a military cadence.]

    "This ain't really your life,
    Ain't really your life,
    Ain't really ain't nothing but a movie."

    -Gil Scott Heron

    The names have changed but the movie is the same

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    After the debate #2, some poll according to CNN still had 65% of people (voters?) preferring Romney for JOBS. This is astonishing considering the core of Republican policy. How come Obama is unable to nail Romney by pointing out these simple facts.

    1. The same old Trickle Down economics that has been Republican policy for 30+ years that has resulted in decling median incomes & increasing poverty, and
    2. Large spending cuts with no tax increases, i.e. big austerity, which is right now strinking European economies at an unprecedented rate.

  22. #22
    RGA
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    Romney says - government doesn't create jobs then blames the current government for not creating enough jobs.

    65% of people are stuuuuuupid. Republicans sell fear - they sell it very very well.

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  23. #23
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    65% of people are stuuuuuupid.
    No, most people are not stupid. It is just they are not getting the right information, or getting biased news. Foxnews is good example

  24. #24
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    No, most people are not stupid. It is just they are not getting the right information, or getting biased news. Foxnews is good example
    I think we're being too PC in this day and age. I think anyone who watches 10 minutes of FOX News should be able to tell they're being fed complete and utter BS. The first time I saw Fox News was vacationing in Hong Kong in 2008 when the Palin/Biden debate was on. I watched the commentary afterwards and I first thought it was a Stephen Colbert skit it was so comically one sided and wink wink nudge nudge laughable. But it wasn't satire - these reporters and commentators were being completely serious.

    Since Fox News has the highest ratings I can only assume that "most" viewers believe what the have to say.

    The anti-Obama vote has nothing to do with jobs or finances but over religious based moral issues (and arguably that he's not the right colour).

    Watching the second debate (I missed the first) it was pretty clear to me Romney is a sleazy used car dealer who will say anything without any evidence to get the win. Women who vote for him must want to be on par with cattle.

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  25. #25
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    No, most people are not stupid. It is just they are not getting the right information, or getting biased news. Foxnews is good example
    True, only 50% of the population is of below average intelligence.

    But you have to take the ignorant and irrational people into account because the three groups aren't congruent.


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