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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:
I'll grant you Mecca and Medina are more important than Jerusalem to Islam, though...not sure that lessens the importance to their culture any.
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First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?
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With the end of the Cold War, I hoped ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieFactory
First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?
I hoped to see a return to rationality in U.S. foreign policy, but it didn't happen. The U.S. might have set out in the early '90s to redress the failings of its Cold War policies, such as support for the Shaw of Iran, but instead did nothing rub salt in old wounds.
The U.S. has continued to support certain old Cold War allies, once regard as bulwarks against Communism, but now merely fighting local battles. Israel is the prime example of this. The continuing irrational and uncritical support for that small country, population <6 million, has thoroughly alienated the Arab and Moslim world, population 1.2 billion. The war on terrorism has to be fought at its causes which is largely U.S. foreign policy, past and present.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Come on! Islam's holiest of sacred ground is in Saudi Arabia (it's called Mecca) and you as a non-Muslim can't go there. What do you have against Israel? They don't have designs and ideas of turning the rest of the world into a giant Israel. Muslims want to turn the world into a giant Afghanistan.:confused5:
JoeE, actually Jerusalem is holy to Islam. If I recall rightly, the Dome of the Rock is the third most holy site for Muslims. Most Christians, especially the North American variety, have almost entirely lost their sense of holy places. To many people around the world, it's very serious. As far as turning the whole world into a giant Afganistan, remember that most Islamic nations are not nearly that strict, the real world always being more complex than political slogans and speeches admit. BTW, the Talmud, the REAL holy book of Judiasm, has preached Jewish dominance of the world for many centuries. It states that 200 donkeys will be required to carry the chests containing the KEYS to all the other treasure chests which have been looted from the Goyim [read: cattle]. Again, most Jews are just trying to get on in this world, like everyone else.
Let's get past the Sterotypes:
not every Muslim is a Terrorist - few in fact
not every Jew is a greedy Banker - few in fact
not every Christian is a neo-Crusader - few in fact
Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...
Laz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trollgirl
Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...
Laz
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?
...how about the bankers, those invested in the military industrial complex, and those that own and control the means of production for oil?
Or maybe it was just...SATAN?!!! (mimics Churchlady)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?
C'mon, GM, open your eyes...it's the Galactic Confederacy under the rule of Xenu...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I've got less against Israel than Iran, but to deny that Israel is situated in a very contentious location is ridiculous...Muslims don't want to turn the world into a big afghanistan - do you even know any muslims?
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.
If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.
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It bothers me too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.
If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.
It bothers me that moderate Muslims in the U.S., Canada, Britain, France, etc., seem a lot quicker to complain that they are unfairly persecuted on account of the War on Terror, than they are to do much about the problem themselves. Which would be to root out their own bad apples.
Not sure about your other point, though, Sir T. Is it Israel listening to Bush? Or is Bush listening to Israel and the domestic pro-Zionists? :confused5:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.
If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.
I probably have less of a problem with US foreign policy than most - sometimes the ends justify the means. We may have gone into Iraq for the wrong reasons, but it was the right thing to do.
And I'm very pro-Israel, I feel their actions were justified in Lebanon. But I'm also pragmatic. Islam did not start all this. If you look back through history, you can count on one hand the number of nations that were conquered and taken from their owners without war as a response. What the hell did the UN expect in 1948? Yes Muslim terrorists are fanatical, and mostly counter-productive to progress. But Israel has to concede more than they've been willing to if there's any chance for peace. And the two biggest parties responsible for this mess should play a bigger role in settling it equitably.
The UN propsal for Israel was approved by almost everyone except for the region it directly and spiritually impacted. Good move! So we have a long drawn out war that has seen hatred evolve on both sides. Rather than starting over and getting it right, the solution so far has been to keep throwing more money and weapons at a failed concept.
It's not fair to blame Israel for this, her people have suffered enough. It's only human for them to want their very own sovereign jewish state. And it explains, if not justifies their often disproportionate response to acts of aggression by her neighbors.
But this ain't going away until the map is redrawn, and the majority of the region are democratically satisfied and Israel is protected - no easy task.
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OK, now...
...here's where it gets interesting...I'm sure the OP didn't see this coming...
First of all, the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is a family feud that's been brewing for a few thousand years...It seems old Abraham (Ibrihaim to the Muslims) couldn't get Sara (who may have been his half-sister) preggers...so Sara suggests he have a go at Hagar, her maid (who may have been Egyptian)...Well nine months later, out pops Ishmael and all is well 'til Abe and Sara get lucky, resulting in Bob Dylan's Highway 61...a, er Isaac...Well good old honest Abe shows Hagar and his b@$tard son the door and the rest is history...
The ancient Hebrews were nomadic and some of them settled (yes settled) in the land of the Pharoahs...Egypt and they were enslaved and they are subsequently released and ride into the sunrise to the land of milk and honey...
Somewhere along the line, Jacob (Isaac's son) is renamed Israel, so the the children of Israel are descendants of a man named Israel, not a land, nation or anything else...
Now...does anyone out there think the bit o'geography currently known as Israel was vacant and/or desolate? It was the land of Canaan and was just chock full of Canaanites, Jebusites and the occasional Phillistine or two...And Joshua smote the defenders when the walls of Jericho come a-tumblin' down and subsequently David whacks Goliath with his version of the Holy Hand-grenade Of Antioch and long story short...they invaded, captured Jerusalem (ca. 1000BC) and built a temple...so far, so good...until the arrival of imperial Rome, who take exception to the in-fighting among the various Hebrew factions, does a bit of smite-ing of their own and scatters the Israelites to the four winds and renames the land Syria Palestina...
Jerusalem remained under the Roman and Byzatine rule until the Muslim invasion...in fact it was the Muslims (unlike Byzantium) who allowed for a certain amount of Jewish autonomy...then there's the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Turks and the Balfour Document and British Mandate of Palestine and the League of Nations etc., etc....
It wasn't until world Jewry began to resettle to Palestine en masse in the mid-1800s and the advent of Zionism near the turn of the century, that things got sticky again...
Jews have always been considered a nation within a nation as evidenced by their actions and Zionism holds that to be a foundational precept...that they are a divinely ordained counter-culture uber alles so-to-speak...Reminds me of the the scene in MP and the Holy Grail when Arthur and the peasants engage in a dialog re: supreme authority...
There are many other things that impinge on the whole enchilada including the men's daily prayer thanking God that they aren't a woman...it's that sorta' thing that tends to put folks off...
jimHJJ(...everything may be a bit compressed, but holy, horse-hockey...crack open a book now and again...)
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You left out Adam and Eve.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I've got less against Israel than Iran, but to deny that Israel is situated in a very contentious location is ridiculous...Muslims don't want to turn the world into a big afghanistan - do you even know any muslims?
I'm a black American who lives in the inner city. It's impossible for me not to know any Muslims. I'm surrounded by true Muslims and followers of the NOI (Nation Of Islam). I have several close friends who have made the Haj. I've also lived in the Middle East!
To expect Muslims to get along with anyone (not just Jews) is ridiculous. They can't even get along with themselves. Sunni and Shiite have been fighting for several hundred years over who is the successor to Mohammad.:ihih:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trollgirl
JoeE, actually Jerusalem is holy to Islam. If I recall rightly, the Dome of the Rock is the third most holy site for Muslims. Most Christians, especially the North American variety, have almost entirely lost their sense of holy places. To many people around the world, it's very serious. As far as turning the whole world into a giant Afganistan, remember that most Islamic nations are not nearly that strict, the real world always being more complex than political slogans and speeches admit. BTW, the Talmud, the REAL holy book of Judiasm, has preached Jewish dominance of the world for many centuries. It states that 200 donkeys will be required to carry the chests containing the KEYS to all the other treasure chests which have been looted from the Goyim [read: cattle]. Again, most Jews are just trying to get on in this world, like everyone else.
Let's get past the Sterotypes:
not every Muslim is a Terrorist - few in fact
not every Jew is a greedy Banker - few in fact
not every Christian is a neo-Crusader - few in fact
Another group is responsible for pitting one against the other...
Laz
Truly devout Muslims do not believe in any separation of church and state. Admittedly a world like Afghanistan is a stretch. Saudi Arabia is more like what devout Muslims would like the world to be. I don't want to live in a world like that either.:incazzato:
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They were out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
You left out Adam and Eve.
...looking for the new fall fig leaves...
jimHJJ(...with which to cover their nakedidity...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieFactory
First off, the OP's post is pure propaganda. Second if we put aside our instinctual ethnocentrism for a moment, why would be it be OK for Israel to develop nuclear technology but not Iran - even when they say it's for power generation? Another question is why is Iran's claims to peaceful development of nuclear tech viewed with such suspicion yet Israel has free reign?
Israel is not actively supporting terrorism against me and mine (the USA). Israel is not actively supporting any movement to make the world an Islamic state. The avowed aim of radical Islam is the establishment of an Islamic world. I am not too interested in having to live in a world like that.:ihih:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...here's where it gets interesting...I'm sure the OP didn't see this coming...
First of all, the whole Arab-Israeli conflict is a family feud that's been brewing for a few thousand years...It seems old Abraham (Ibrihaim to the Muslims) couldn't get Sara (who may have been his half-sister) preggers...so Sara suggests he have a go at Hagar, her maid (who may have been Egyptian)...Well nine months later, out pops Ishmael and all is well 'til Abe and Sara get lucky, resulting in Bob Dylan's Highway 61...a, er Isaac...Well good old honest Abe shows Hagar and his b@$tard son the door and the rest is history...
The ancient Hebrews were nomadic and some of them settled (yes settled) in the land of the Pharoahs...Egypt and they were enslaved and they are subsequently released and ride into the sunrise to the land of milk and honey...
Somewhere along the line, Jacob (Isaac's son) is renamed Israel, so the the children of Israel are descendants of a man named Israel, not a land, nation or anything else...
Now...does anyone out there think the bit o'geography currently known as Israel was vacant and/or desolate? It was the land of Canaan and was just chock full of Canaanites, Jebusites and the occasional Phillistine or two...And Joshua smote the defenders when the walls of Jericho come a-tumblin' down and subsequently David whacks Goliath with his version of the Holy Hand-grenade Of Antioch and long story short...they invaded, captured Jerusalem (ca. 1000BC) and built a temple...so far, so good...until the arrival of imperial Rome, who take exception to the in-fighting among the various Hebrew factions, does a bit of smite-ing of their own and scatters the Israelites to the four winds and renames the land Syria Palestina...
Jerusalem remained under the Roman and Byzatine rule until the Muslim invasion...in fact it was the Muslims (unlike Byzantium) who allowed for a certain amount of Jewish autonomy...then there's the Crusades and the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Turks and the Balfour Document and British Mandate of Palestine and the League of Nations etc., etc....
It wasn't until world Jewry began to resettle to Palestine en masse in the mid-1800s and the advent of Zionism near the turn of the century, that things got sticky again...
Jews have always been considered a nation within a nation as evidenced by their actions and Zionism holds that to be a foundational precept...that they are a divinely ordained counter-culture uber alles so-to-speak...Reminds me of the the scene in MP and the Holy Grail when Arthur and the peasants engage in a dialog re: supreme authority...
There are many other things that impinge on the whole enchilada including the men's daily prayer thanking God that they aren't a woman...it's that sorta' thing that tends to put folks off...
jimHJJ(...everything may be a bit compressed, but holy, horse-hockey...crack open a book now and again...)
That's no worse than the Muslim belief that women aren't really human.:ihih:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Maybe he should have stated "radical muslims" instead of just plain muslims. However, the radical voice seems to be the loudest voice as the more moderate muslims have remaind mum about renoucing this radical perspective. This to me is tacit support and is very unsettling at the least.
If you dislike Israel, then you probably dislike America. We basically control their every move, and it seems that when our government asks them to do things, they tend to do it, if not grudgingly. My problem is not Israel directly, its Israel listening to George Bush that worries me.
We are in agreement. Moderate Muslims want a world based on Islamic rule and law. although they may not admit it to Christians and others. Moderate Islam is where the money to support radical Islam comes from. There is much more than tacit support going on. The active silence about terrorism and terrorists from moderate Muslims actually says quite a bit.:yesnod:
To any and all. I'm not just anti Islam. I'm anti all religions. I think all of them are silly. The ones that have silly dietary requirements or crazy dress codes just happen to be sillier than rest. Islam (radical) is the only one that wants to take away my freedom to write what I just wrote.:incazzato:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Israel is not actively supporting terrorism against me and mine (the USA). Israel is not actively supporting any movement to make the world an Islamic state. The avowed aim of radical Islam is the establishment of an Islamic world. I am not too interested in having to live in a world like that.:ihih:
Summarized nicely into a single word: Ethnocentrism.
Contrary to popular Western belief, but the world at large might not want to convert to "democracy", especially the USA's flavor of it - AKA "We will give you liberty, or we will give you death!"
I think ultimately history will prove democracy to be a flawed philosophy in the same way communism was - the reliance on positive human nature. Communism depended on humans being unselfish, and democracy depends on an educated and politically active populace. Suffice it to say, the USA is not a shining example of the ideal democratic state, especially when there are more votes for American Idol than for the presidential elections.
IMO the ideal form of government is a benevolent dictatorship.
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As Great Britian's then Prime Minister...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Don't keep us all in suspense. Who is that other group?
...Benjamin Disraeli said, the world is ruled by a very different group of people than you or I think or believe. I have been studying this subject for many years, and even the members of this group who are visible are just front men - errand boys. The Book of Revelation refers to it as Mystery Babylon, aka the New World Order, the Order, Skull & Bones, the Fourth Reich of the Rich, the Trilateral Commission, Roundtable, the Council on Foreign Relations, etc, etc, etc. Involved are most of the world's leading Nation States, the Mega Corporations, Mega Banks, Mega Labor Unions, the Military-Industrial Complex, Mega Religious Denominatios and Orders, the Masons, the Occult and New Age movements, etc, etc, etc. It is VERY difficult to finger any one organization as being THE GROUP, for it is amorphous and slippery, like Jello. A whole lot of people are involved to a greater or lesser degree, but I do not think for a moment that many people know the names of the core members. Those that do probably walk in fear, and I do know that lots of people end up dead/suicided for knowing too much. Ignorance truly is bliss...
DO NOT ask me to play Twenty Questions on this subject [looks over shoulder].
Laz
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Call me strange, call me weird, call me blind even, but somewhere in all this I missed the references to audio equipment....does all the talk about nuclear weaponry have anything to do with the upcoming use of beryllium in a new line of speakers by Yamaha? They’ve lifted the ban on its use? Or is there a fear that the Iranians might start dropping beryllium-laden speakers on US cities?
Folks, there are forums aplenty on the net where those who wish to indulge in the rhetoric of war, ethnic and religious intolerance, and US foreign policy can do so to their hearts content. Last I looked this forum existed for the cross-exchange of ideas and knowledge regarding a shared passion, audio equipment, not for indulging in a fruitless exercise to second-guess who/when/if the USA/Iran/Israel would/should/might nuke/gas/spank the USA/Iran/Israel. If that doesn’t make sense, neither does it do anything for my sensibilities to come here to peruse the pages and find a header devoted to such an off-topic discussion.
If you think I’m not concerned or involved you’re dead wrong. I have written numerous letters to various papers since 2003 regarding my views, and have created a number of web pages devoted to the subject of the Middle East. The whole exercise has been physically draining and personally very taxing over the last few years, even to the extent of costing long-standing friendships. As can be seen on this very thread, the subject polarizes people and creates disharmony, which is the last thing a forum devoted to the appreciation of music should be about. I come here for relaxation and to learn about a subject dear to me, not to be dragged back unwillingly to a topic I’ve already devoted far too much energy to – years of it.
For myself, if not for others, I would petition that we all get back to respecting what this place is all about. If you want appropriate forums to battle it out anew just let me know and I can happily direct you to them.
Respectfully.....Tim
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You might...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
...Call me strange, call me weird, call me blind even, but somewhere in all this I missed the references to audio equipment....
Respectfully.....Tim
...might want to include unobservant in that litany as this forum is specifically for off-topic, non-audio matters...add to that it's the steel-cage, a rather no-holds-barred section of the OT forum...
Now, unless you have anything to add get your dumb@$$ out of here and talk shop in any one of the other forums...
jimHJJ(...thank you...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...might want to include unobservant in that litany as this forum is specifically for off-topic, non-audio matters...add to that it's the steel-cage, a rather no-holds-barred section of the OT forum...
Now, unless you have anything to add get your dumb@$$ out of here and talk shop in any one of the other forums...
jimHJJ(...thank you...)
ROFLMAO...
Sorry,
Nothing to add...the man's just got good material....
Well...I could mention that this thread did lay dormant for 2 months until...nah.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
ROFLMAO...
Sorry,
Nothing to add...the man's just got good material....
Well...I could mention that this thread did lay dormant for 2 months until...nah.
Ditto. Good stuff here. Thanks for the laughs.
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