-
Is More watts better?
Can someone give light on my question? I have a Harman Kardon avr-230 which I believe is rated at 50 or 55 watts in stereo. I am looking to buy a used Citation 22 power amp rated at 200 watts (I think). Will this make a significant differnce in sound and what kind of differences will it make? Is it worth the extra money? I have Paradigm monitor 9's as fronts.
Thanks.
-
No more watts is not better. More watts can be louder. If you have a 50 watt amplifier and all else being equal, an amp rated at 100 watts will be 3 decibals louder. 3db is barely audible.
To get twice as loud, to the ear, of a 50 watt amp you would need a 500 watt amp. And this would only happen if the speaker was capable of taking 500 watts. Most speakers can only take 50 - 200 watts.
In my experience low powered amps sound the best. The longest running amplifier in history is the Sugden A21a which is a Single Ended (SE) solid state amplifier rated at 25 watts per channel pure class A into 8 ohms -- and is not high current. It's one of the best sounding amplifiers for sane money going - which is why it's been selling since 1968.
I have yet to hear an amplifier above 100 watts that I would want to own.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitbosskev
Is More watts better?
Short answer to that question is yes.
Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.
So higher power is always welcome.
-
It really all depends...if your listening habbits are such that you would never take advantage of having 100 watts or more, then having 100 watts or more is useless to you.
I have not found that more powerful amps sound better than less powerful amps when both amps are used within their design limitations. As you get to the extreme limit of the smaller amp, it will start to distort and lose it's sound quality. Often, larger amps have higher quality components than other amps, so sometimes that gets confused with simply having "more watts".
I have found with 84 dB sensitive speakers or better, 60 watt amps are more than enough for me.
My speakers are 88 and 90 dB though, so I need even less power to hit very loud average levels.
RGA is very right, a lot of speakers and listeners really don't need more than a few watts to sound great. A lot of factors to consider.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
Short answer to that question is yes.
Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.
So higher power is always welcome.
I know of very little normal speakers can produce the whole dynamic range in the first place, but i would also add that you need control, lots of current, a purely stable amp and a high damping factor.
-Flo
PS: RGA, i can hear .5db differences and 3db is a lot. Espc. when a box sits in the corners and gets different room gain from the corners.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
Short answer to that question is yes.
Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.
So higher power is always welcome.
Sorry but this is incorrect - at least partially. What I left out is the function of the speaker. If you own 80db senstive speakers then I would agree that you would need very high wattage amplifiers to get them going. However, there is no need to buy such speakers since you can get easy to drive speakers.
High watt amps and separates also tend to generate noise not lessen it. This has always been an advantage of integrated amps over separates or pseudo hybrids like my amp. Drum beats do not hit 200-300 watts or a watt number. Most all "good" amps have significant reserves to reach loud peaks. The only advantage to high watt amps is volume capability. It takes 10 times the power to get a perceived doubling of the volume to the human ear. Thus a 100 watt amplifier will make a speaker that can handle 100 watts twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. On the other hand if you run a 100 watt amp on an 83db sensitive speaker and I run a 10 watt amp on a 95db senstive speaker (all else being equal) then my system will play louder than yours and have more headroom than yours.
High watt amps tend to require more aliasing or fixing of the signal in order for the amplifier to work properly - high power high damping factor = high negative feedback. It typically makes the graph look prettier but hardly does anything good for the sound. UHF technical advisor Paul Bergman wrote about damping factor in UHF's "The World of High Fidelity" and suggested that amps with damping factors above 40 are 'generally' best avoided. In the end it comes down to experience - I have heard more systems that have huge power power amplifiers such as Krell, YBA, Classe,Bryston etc monoblocks with speakers of not the greatest efficiency such as those from ML, HALES, Gershman Acoustics, Legacy, Wilson, PMC, etc. I have heard fewer systems of high efficiency and low powered Class A amplifiers. These carefully matched systems all have seemed to have more dynamic headroom (less compression) and some can play at significantly higher levels. It has been said that while this is true such speakers are often much bigger and offer less bass repsonse -- but that can be shown to be untrue!
The advantage of some of these speakers of course is that you the customer get far more choice -- you can use an 8 watt amp or an 80 watt amp or an 800 watt amp. And if volume level matters look for a speaker that is high efficient, and can handle a lot of watts. And such speakers also are more able to let you the customer hear the difference in sound quality of the amplifiers at good drive levels. a low watt amp will fizzle out on tough speakers but on easy to drive speakers you can compare a Krell and a SET and and neither will be running out of steam -- then you can hear what the actual amplifiers sound like.
By the way I had loads of fun with PMC and Bryston like set-ups as well - excellent build, powerful sound - but don't give up on the "polar opposite" kind of set-ups. A fellow in town here has gone to 98db sensitive speakers and 8 watt amps from having owned massive SS gear and gigantic speakers designed by Mark Levinson with subwoofers . His system will play more than loud enough for most people. The big Bryston PMC ultimately will play a bit louder but the sacrifice in subtleties and the introduction of fatigue is not a trade that I would make.
-
Quote:
However, there is no need to buy such speakers since you can get easy to drive speakers.
So what do i do when efficent speakers like the AN's make me throw up and curl up in the corner? What you write is complete bogus! My friend has the AN's Conquest and the Kondo in for review and both generate tons of noise and hiss. Yes, they sound good but have no balls (except the Kondo..of course) and you cant drive any of the top speakers with them.
There are amps out there that easily compare and have tons of power to play with also, the Silver King, Sphinx PJ16, Acousticplan and Silvaweld OTL's.
Quote:
then you can hear what the actual amplifiers sound like.
Not if you have driver coloration, time delay erros, room coloration etc. Some amps need to be driven hot and the Krell KRS wont do **** on a 12Ohm impedance.
Like i said.....advertising bogus!
-Flo
-
So whats the answer guys?Most of my HT speakers are 91db to 94db In average room 2.83 V,1m. Im going to add a power amp to drive my fronts from pre-out of receiver.Im using A/Bspeakers at same time .The amp is 300 watts at 4ohms both channel driven.How loud do you think its going to be:ihih:
-
It will never be anywhere close to 300watts and we dont know the damping factor or the impedance responce of your speakers ;-)
Bottom line: Try it out and see if you like it, if you dont then junk it and buy a different one and if you like it.....well thats simple!
-Flo
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
So whats the answer guys?Most of my HT speakers are 91db to 94db In average room 2.83 V,1m. Im going to add a power amp to drive my fronts from pre-out of receiver.Im using A/Bspeakers at same time .The amp is 300 watts at 4ohms both channel driven.How loud do you think its going to be:ihih:
When i added a Bryston 120 watt power amp to my 95 db sensitive top of the line Wharfedales everything improved - tighter bass punchy sound cleaner and tighter and less sluggish. This was actually a 5 watt downgrade because I had the top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver rated at 125 watts RMS and distortion figures that rivalled the Bryston.
It's not about the watts and it's not strictly about the sensitivity rating. Plenty of speakers at 93db sensitivity and are not the least bit friendly to low powered amps. SET amps like stable loads - nothing wrong with a 4 ohm load if it doesn't dip and rise too much. My speakers are rated as 6 ohms but never dip under 5. If I remember correctly the 2.83V, 1m spec needs to be subtracted by 3db to be the same as the 1 watt 1 meter spec (not 100% sure so check on that). Remember for every 3db gain you need twice the amplifier power.
Florian - I'd be curious as to the Serial numbers of both the Kondo and the Conquests. The Conquests and Kageki amplifiers as well as all of the other AN amps that I have heard and the one I own and everyone else I know who has ever heard any of them hear absolutely no noise with any of these amplifiers - there may be a faulty connection and your friend should definitely have a repair outlet fix the issue.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Florian - I'd be curious as to the Serial numbers of both the Kondo and the Conquests. The Conquests and Kageki amplifiers as well as all of the other AN amps that I have heard and the one I own and everyone else I know who has ever heard any of them hear absolutely no noise with any of these amplifiers - there may be a faulty connection and your friend should definitely have a repair outlet fix the issue.
No problem, the review will be published soon and all will be shown there. There are quite a view articles that compared the original Kondo to the new version from Peter where he added more feedback to get a quieter background and it took all the magic out. So far on CD's its below the expectiations but is a killer in the analog realm. All testes on Acoustats, Apogees and of course no wooden coffins to actually hear what the amp does ;-)
-Flo
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
It's not about the watts and it's not strictly about the sensitivity rating. Plenty of speakers at 93db sensitivity and are not the least bit friendly to low powered amps. SET amps like stable loads - nothing wrong with a 4 ohm load if it doesn't dip and rise too much. My speakers are rated as 6 ohms but never dip under 5. If I remember correctly the 2.83V, 1m spec needs to be subtracted by 3db to be the same as the 1 watt 1 meter spec (not 100% sure so check on that). Remember for every 3db gain you need twice the amplifier power.
Nah, the 2.83 V is just used because 2.83 V into 8 ohms is 1 watt. But almost all speakers that use the 2.83 V number for sensitivity will have lower "real" sensitivity if measured with 1 watt fed into them. You do subtract 3 dB if your speakers are 4 ohm, because that'd be the same as running 2 watts into 4 ohms (sort of).
Many efficiency/sensitivity numbers I've seen on speakers aren't done in anechoic conditions, and use room gain to jack that number up a a bit. That ticks me off. I see this with $300 or cheaper speakers that boast 90 or 91 dB efficiency. It's often a few dB's less. Not a big deal, but I think a stricter standard needs to be enforced.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
PS: RGA, i can hear .5db differences and 3db is a lot. Espc. when a box sits in the corners and gets different room gain from the corners.
You are a freakin' cyborg Flo. :D
Most of us normal humans can only barely hear 1 dB changes with statistical significance. The average healthy ear doesn't even do much better with 3 dB differences.
Funny story - I can notice a +1 dB increase in my room with concentration when I increase the volume. In my last hearing test I could only accurately identify +3 dB increases that the technician controlled better than 90% of the time. 2 dB I was 50/50, and was honestly guessing. That 3 dB is the standard used for hearing. If you can do that, you have an average healthy ear.
I don't find +3 dB in my room to be much of a difference really, noticeable, but I think that's the minimum increment I would change volume by if someone asked me to turn it up or down.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
It will never be anywhere close to 300watts and we dont know the damping factor or the impedance responce of your speakers ;-)
Bottom line: Try it out and see if you like it, if you dont then junk it and buy a different one and if you like it.....well thats simple!
-Flo
Damping factor>100 at 1khz,S/N ratio 100db.Nominal Impedance of speakers is 6 ohms.This amp detect auto from 2ohms( 480 w) both channel to 8ohms (205w)If I see it help I'll use it ,if I see it does'nt I'll try others.Lots of reading to do on spec on amps (gains,distortion,ect) its a new ball game.Thanks
-
Thanks all for the help and info.:cornut:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
No problem, the review will be published soon and all will be shown there. There are quite a view articles that compared the original Kondo to the new version from Peter where he added more feedback to get a quieter background and it took all the magic out. So far on CD's its below the expectiations but is a killer in the analog realm. All testes on Acoustats, Apogees and of course no wooden coffins to actually hear what the amp does ;-)
-Flo
Published where - which magazine? Peter has both Ongaku amps - Everyone so far that has heard both said the AN UK version is better. There is no negative feedback - Peter uses far better transformers which reduces background noise -- the prototype of the UK Ongaku was not quiet in the noise department as Martin Colloms noted in his recent review in Hi-Fi News -- nevertheless it was noted that it would be in the running for world's best amp -- and that version was not even fixed up. These amps and Kondo's were not designed for panels -- Kondo hated panels which is why he made "coffins" and showed with his "coffins" or other companies' "coffins."
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Sorry but this is incorrect - at least partially. What I left out is the function of the speaker. If you own 80db senstive speakers then I would agree that you would need very high wattage amplifiers to get them going.
I agree that speaker sensitivity does matter as to how much power needed, but it should not be the main factor. Today's high dynamic sources such as CD, DVD, DVD-A or HD audio require for the amp to have plenty of reserve power to accurately amplify the signal regardless of speaker used. And I don't believe 8 or 10 watt amp will cut it even if high sensitivity speakers are used.
Quote:
High watt amps and separates also tend to generate noise not lessen it. This has always been an advantage of integrated amps over separates or pseudo hybrids like my amp.
How did you come to that conclusion?
High quality amps and separate tend to keep channels (and their power supply) separated to avoid interchannel noise and distortion. And they use better shielding and methods to keep RF/EMI noise from effecting the components. So IMO amps are better equipped to combat noise than hybrid/integrated amps :)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Published where - which magazine? Peter has both Ongaku amps - Everyone so far that has heard both said the AN UK version is better.
Hmmm...and who will these people be? The only person I am aware of so far to have said this publicly is Peter Qvortrup himself and what else do you expect him to say :)
-
Pitboss, if you're still out there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitbosskev
Can someone give light on my question? I have a Harman Kardon avr-230 which I believe is rated at 50 or 55 watts in stereo. I am looking to buy a used Citation 22 power amp rated at 200 watts (I think). Will this make a significant differnce in sound and what kind of differences will it make? Is it worth the extra money? I have Paradigm monitor 9's as fronts.
Thanks.
...I'd buy the Citation...I have a Citation 19 (100Wpc@ 8 Ohms/ 200wpc@ 4Ohms) purchased in the mid-80s (as I recall) and it has served me well over the years...wide bandwidth and high current output...According to the owners manual, a pdf. @ the HK site, the 22 is of a like breed, check it out here:
http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%2...22-24%20om.pdf
While specs aren't everything, they're a good objective place to start...
jimHJJ(...feel free to ignore all the subjective, anecdotal claptrap and background noise contained in this thread...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
I agree that speaker sensitivity does matter as to how much power needed, but it should not be the main factor. Today's high dynamic sources such as CD, DVD, DVD-A or HD audio require for the amp to have plenty of reserve power to accurately amplify the signal regardless of speaker used. And I don't believe 8 or 10 watt amp will cut it even if high sensitivity speakers are used.
How did you come to that conclusion?
High quality amps and separate tend to keep channels (and their power supply) separated to avoid interchannel noise and distortion. And they use better shielding and methods to keep RF/EMI noise from effecting the components. So IMO amps are better equipped to combat noise than hybrid/integrated amps :)
Cabling is kept shorter in integrated amplifiers - talking good integrated amplifiers not the ones most people hear -- You are welcom to come to my place and hear watt 10 watts is capable of doing with modestly sensitive speakers. Some people would like to argue my speakers are only 89,5 db sensitive rather than the the 93db in corner measurement -- so if we take the 89,5db rating that illustrates even more so what 10 watts is capable of doing.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
Hmmm...and who will these people be? The only person I am aware of so far to have said this publicly is Peter Qvortrup himself and what else do you expect him to say :)
Well he also said you could go to his home and hear it for yourself - but you're far too much of a coward to try.
Not everyone posts on forums buddy and several people in Victoria and Nanaimo I have met as owners -- who have flown to England went to Peter's house and heard the systems. You see these are people with money who have heard the best systems in the world and owned them and have discussed with designers like Mark Levinson. When they spend this much money on an Audio Note system they want to hear the flagship and then determine how close they want to get to it. And when you drop close to half a million dollars a plane ticket to England is less than the tax on the interconnect cable.
You are welcome to come here and I shall introduce these people to you but I am not posting their names because I was requested not to - especially with the rampant home invasions on the rise.
-
Well of course you know that i think that Audio Note speakers are pure junk and you will never ever convince me or any of the other thousands ultra high end people different BUT RGA is right in one regards. 10 or 18 watts is more then enough! The VS 18 Watt DB300's (voted best amp on the planet 3 times) on the Apogees and you can get them in the 90db range with them. Of course you need a lot more to get the max SPL of a 118db but for most good speakers 18 watt is quite enough.
-Flo
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Well of course you know that i think that Audio Note speakers are pure junk and you will never ever convince me or any of the other thousands ultra high end people different
-Flo
Hey Flo,
You aren't, by chance, a diplomat?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Hey Flo,
You aren't, by chance, a diplomat?
Hehe, nope but i have thought about it :)
-
RGA, this is just TOO funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well he also said you could go to his home and hear it for yourself - but you're far too much of a coward to try.
Not everyone posts on forums buddy and several people in Victoria and Nanaimo I have met as owners -- who have flown to England went to Peter's house and heard the systems. You see these are people with money who have heard the best systems in the world and owned them and have discussed with designers like Mark Levinson. When they spend this much money on an Audio Note system they want to hear the flagship and then determine how close they want to get to it. And when you drop close to half a million dollars a plane ticket to England is less than the tax on the interconnect cable.
You are welcome to come here and I shall introduce these people to you but I am not posting their names because I was requested not to - especially with the rampant home invasions on the rise.
Lots of bluff and bravado but nothing of substance.
You assume that peole want to be bothered to take a trip to meet you and your friends because they don't post on these forums?
Half a million dollars for a plane ticket?
You're afraid that by mentioning your friends names their homes will be broken into? I guess only thieves read these forums, eh? ...or could it be that they don't want to be publicly assocated with you?
Thanks for my daily laugh.
-
Hey Mark, what did you expect?
Have you ever seen a measurement of RGA or of Audio Note or of BOSE? No friends to post? Thats too sad RGA!
Hey, i have tons of friends over and everyone is welcome, yes even Wooch and Kex :6: I can't believe it took you all so long to see it!
-Flo
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
Lots of bluff and bravado but nothing of substance.
You assume that people want to be bothered to take a trip to meet you and your friends because they don't post on these forums?
Half a million dollars for a plane ticket?
You're afraid that by mentioning your friends names their homes will be broken into? I guess only thieves read these forums, eh? ...or could it be that they don't want to be publicly associated with you?
Thanks for my daily laugh.
My daily laugh is to see people who can't read. I never used the word friend. I met some people at the dealer and the owner of the upper system went through my dealer to let me hear it. In both instances they requested to not post their addresses which if means that they're names are out of the question since one can look that up in the phone book and find their address.
"Half a million dollars for a plane ticket?"
Don't know what you're talking about. If one is spending a significant amount of dollars on stereo they should ensure they are getting the right set-up for their needs. AN has a different kind of structure to most companies with levels and this customer wanted to ensure the right synergistic match and also to hear the pinnacle the company has to offer -- having heard the pinnacles of many others and owning some of them. I see no reason to not spend what amounts to the "tax" on interconnect cables to fly to England and back - meet the owner see the plant and compare it to other set-ups. One fellow I met here is at the other end of the financial spectrum and he too travelled all the way there - and all he was doing was building a kit. I believe he took his friend a rather noted engineer with him. He is now working on a few kits with differing exotic materials.
"You assume that peole want to be bothered to take a trip to meet you and your friends because they don't post on these forums? "
This also makes no sense. The Audio Hobby implies that Peter Qvortrup is a liar. And that only Peter has heard the two Kondo amps and of course he would choose his own engineer's building of it. That is a false statement - people have -- he is welcome to come out here and I shall introduce him to the people who have heard it. Of course Peter has already asked ANYONE who wants to compare them to go to the plant. It is far easier for TAH to make a drive or a tube trip (England is a very small place) and hear it for himself rather than ask people in Canada about what they heard (to which he won't believe anyway). Not too many people own both Ongaku Amplifiers and can A/B them. Not too many people can request pretty much any recording and have the owner pull it out either. And not too many people can pull out of the closet various very noted competitor's speakers to A/B them. You want to hear a Quad or an Avante Guarde against his speaker with any classical piece from anyone pretty much ever or you want to hear Rage Against the Machine on Vinyl -- and you also want to copmpare the Quad or Acoustat versus his Speaker - want to hear the Acoustat with a Krell set-up verus the tubes etc then he has a significant amount of this stuff on hand.
Very few can pull that out in audition and let YOU hear it for yourself rather than the blab blab on internet forums and the whiney snivelly 2 year olds like Florian.
The only real education in audio is in the listening -- I can't make you do that and there may be very many real reasons not to -- doesn't matter to me and judging by Audio Note's huge demand versus not being able to meet it in supply it's not like they're going to lose any sleep over it. They lose sales no doubt by not being able to meet the demand in a timely manner.
The fellow here paid in advance for a turntable and he has been waiting more than one year and it's still not ready because various outsourced parts suppliers had difficulties causing AN to find someone else and when Audio Note is not about (anyone will do) then it slows the process. They are doing quite well for a little known company with some valves and plain jane boxes.
As opposed to many other companies who went belly up even with big impressive LOOKING products (See Apogee), others who went belly-up but got bought by a Chinese company for the name and went belly-up again and got bought again with accountants in charge instead of passionate music lovers (See Quad, Wharfedale, Mission, Kef). None of these yodles had anything worthwhile to sell for a lot of years. The ONLY reason the names are still around is because Buyers of these companies did not have to spend any money on building name brand recognition.
The best panel maker of the lot now is Soundlab (which in reviews have said it's better than any of the old panel makers like Apogee) which you can compare directly against Audio Note speakers if you wish at a dealer in the US (Audio Federation) who carries both lines. Do a google and locate their address. You can come to my dealer who sells Magnepan and compare that to Audio Note.
My opinion makes little difference -- It needs to be compared by the person doing the shopping. Magnepan and apparently Soundlab have a lot going for them if space is a non issue for you. None of these guys are going anywhere anytime soon, which means all of them are doing quite nicely selling to people.
The original post was about more watts being better -- and no that is not the case - it could be the case if you own low impedance speakers low sensitive speakers or speakers that have large impedance shifts -- if on the other hand you own competently built speakers then you don't need a lot of watts!
-
Another thread gone sour.Wont be to long when the "Top Guns" lock this one.Thank you guys:incazzato:
-
Quote:
Very few can pull that out in audition and let YOU hear it for yourself rather than the blab blab on internet forums and the whiney snivelly 2 year olds like Florian.
At least this 2 year old can afford the same you seek, but chooses not too because its a joke. And this 2 year old *who doesnt wine, since he doesnt want your ****! has had TONS of people over to attest to his system incl. Prof. reviewers.
Muhahah....keep going!
-
Did some surf for the past days.Use a power amp that suppliies 2 to 4 times speakers continuous power rating per channel.This allows 3 to 6 db of headroom for peaks in the audio signal.Light dance music or voice ,amplifier power 1.6 times .For Metal or Grunge 2.5 times.EX for home stereo with 150 watts amp per channel and speakers with a 85 db SPL average (with 15 db peaks)to bring it to the 95 db SPL you would need 1500 watts.Did some calculation for my speakers at a distance of 5 meters ,92 db,6db amplifier headroom and want a 90 db SPL .I would only need 63 watts.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The original post was about more watts being better -- and no that is not the case - it could be the case if you own low impedance speakers low sensitive speakers or speakers that have large impedance shifts -- if on the other hand you own competently built speakers then you don't need a lot of watts
If all things are indeed equal then more watts is better than less watts, to bring it down to your level more Audio Note watts are better less Audio Note watts :ciappa: irrespective of speaker sensitivity, whether more watts are necessary is another matter entirely. By the way I did get to hear the Audio Note J-Spe, and other Audio Note gear not relevant to this discussion, and it sacrifices bass depth for higher sensitivity, a trade-off that is not unreasonable since Audio Note sells low power amplifiers. Going to Brighton to listen to Ongaku is certainly not on the cards for a variety of reasons.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Another thread gone sour.Wont be to long when the "Top Guns" lock this one.Thank you guys:incazzato:
Did I tell you?How can we learn anything if it always turns like this?The More Watts in Steel Cage
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Did I tell you?How can we learn anything if it always turns like this?The More Watts in Steel Cage
Won't they ever learn?:idea:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
If all things are indeed equal then more watts is better than less watts, to bring it down to your level more Audio Note watts are better less Audio Note watts :ciappa: irrespective of speaker sensitivity, whether more watts are necessary is another matter entirely. By the way I did get to hear the Audio Note J-Spe, and other Audio Note gear not relevant to this discussion, and it sacrifices bass depth for higher sensitivity, a trade-off that is not unreasonable since Audio Note sells low power amplifiers. Going to Brighton to listen to Ongaku is certainly not on the cards for a variety of reasons.
Actually I agree with you here. If all else is equal then more watts is better For instance my amp is 10 watts if another exactly the same sounding amplifier called the OTO 2 existed and it was 30 watts then as long as it sounded exactly the same and the price was not exorbuitantly more (a personal judgement call) then yes I agree with you. I'm not against more watts so long as more does not make it worse. With many amplifiers separates are indeed better - for instance I would take a Bryston 3bST with preamp over the B60 and I would also go separates with AN rather than buy the Meishu but these are more about sound quality reasons than power reasons. The OTO is not a true integrated amp -- it is one of their preamps and power amps stuck in one box -- or separates in a box.
Remember though that AN also does in home trials -- they will come to you. Even here they lend the stuff out to people for weeks at a time - don't know about over there.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
The OTO is not a true integrated amp -- it is one of their preamps and power amps stuck in one box -- or separates in a box.
.
How is this different than any other pre-amp on the market? Most I've seen are exactly that.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
How is this different than any other pre-amp on the market? Most I've seen are exactly that.
Integrated amps are not full size separate units in a box. The B60 is not a 3bST and their .5 preamp. No they have a smaller power supply share circuits. The OTO can be purchased as separates -- I believe the M1 preamp and the P1 power amp. The OTO is simply cheaper less noisy and does not require the external interconnect.
I am not going to get into the ins and outs because I don't buy amplifiers or anything else on the technology or the technobabble but on the sound. So all I can do is direct you to what AN claims -- and you can feel free to e-mail them or ignore it. With regards to the integrated amplifiers this is what Peter claims:
"Unlike the majority of integrated amplifiers, which are technically compromised in order to meet their price target, an Audio Note integrated amplifier is a full pre-power amplifier combination, complete with independent power supplies, in a single box. Therefore, rather than being a compromise, it is an advantage. Single box construction provides a shorter signal path and more ideal interstage matching giving obvious sonic benefits. The Meishu takes this principle several steps further and provides separate valve rectified choke smoothed power supplies for each amplification stage." (go to http://www.audionote.co.uk/ click products and then click level 3) [As an aside {nobody who does not have direct access to an all An system need read this bit} -- to this article Indeed, a nice test is to compare the Meishue or OTO with the AN speaker against say a Bryston B&W speaker. What you do is play the B&W set-up at 85decibals to a group of people blind with a given piece of music -- you will need a rat shack meter at the least for this. Then play the same cut on the AN system of around 80-82db and then ask the participants which one sounded louder. Avoid playing bass heavey music though as the B&W's wikll be disadvantaged and bass to the ear often sounds louder so try and avoid stuff under 50hz - anyway I only mention it because a relative of yours has the speakers and this should work -- this note is only in regards to the link I provided and the issue of volume related to resolution - that which is clearer seems louder or does not need to be turned up to be made out so the competing set-up needed to be played louder to seem as loud as the more resolute one.]
Audio Note technically does not make a true integrated amp in the usual way -- in that they said let's make an integrated amp which is usually filled with comprpomises (The B60 is worse than any of their separates for example) -- With AN they are separates in one box and many of them had or had separates like the M1 pre and P1 power amp. The other thing is that while the OTO is cosnsidered a level 2 product in their line - the M1 and P1 are considered level 1. So if indeed you agree that the OTO sounds better than the separates then that supports his argument of shorter signal path being better blah blah blah. The advantage of many separates is that of reducing noise -- but the AN amps are so physically large using such good parts even for an entry level amp that everything seems spaced far enough apart to not be a problem -- the OTO is nearly as large as my 300 disc changer.
Of course I have heard the M8 and Kageki power amps and they blow the OTO to dust. My view is you get what sounds best to you through the speakers you have. The M8 and Kegon costs well over 15 times the price of the OTO and actually have 2 less watts per channel.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Integrated amps are not full size separate units in a box. The B60 is not a 3bST and their .5 preamp. No they have a smaller power supply share circuits. The OTO can be purchased as separates -- I believe the M1 preamp and the P1 power amp. The OTO is simply cheaper less noisy and does not require the external interconnect.
I am not going to get into the ins and outs because I don't buy amplifiers or anything else on the technology or the technobabble but on the sound. So all I can do is direct you to what AN claims -- and you can feel free to e-mail them or ignore it. With regards to the integrated amplifiers this is what Peter claims:
The only beef I have with the comment is the implication Peter makes that all other integrated are always built with compromise to achieve a price target. When you really think about it, there isn't a product on Earth that isn't compromised in this fashion to some degree. But, that's a rather unfair comment to make. Instead of accusing companies of lining their products, why not approach it from the point of view of the consumer who doesn't want to fork out big bucks for 2 separate boxes where no audible advantages exist.
I can't speak for Bryston's integrateds, but smaller power supplies aside, a lot of integrateds aren't much different than their separate counterparts. A lot of cost is eliminated when you don't have to build 2 chassis, and buy a whole separate power supply (even small ones cost a good chunk of dough).
You can take apart an old NAD integrated (I haven't checked new models) and compare the guts to a smaller amp and pre-amp. You'd be hard pressed to find a difference in circuitry where it matters. Most of them are the same. The difference is their circuits are integrated, so there's no input/output stage on the two components in the traditional sense, just a direct feed. The power supply is generally the same size as the amplifiers, so I suppose it is disadvantaged by having to power a whole other piece of electronics, but pre-amps dont' consume much power at all and once activated don't fluctuate current demands much and won't make difference unless you overdrive the amp anyway. Arcam has been quite successful at employing this strategy. Especially with their newer a/v receivers, which are the best sounding a/v receivers I've ever heard.
Adcom even made a few integrateds for awhile, but gave up on this practice not because the product was compromised, but because their customers didn't like the marriage of both components requiring upgrading both at once. Perception drives this business more than substance, I think.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Integrated amps are not full size separate units in a box. The B60 is not a 3bST and their .5 preamp. No they have a smaller power supply share circuits. The OTO can be purchased as separates -- I believe the M1 preamp and the P1 power amp. The OTO is simply cheaper less noisy and does not require the external interconnect.
I am not going to get into the ins and outs because I don't buy amplifiers or anything else on the technology or the technobabble but on the sound. So all I can do is direct you to what AN claims -- and you can feel free to e-mail them or ignore it. With regards to the integrated amplifiers this is what Peter claims:
"Unlike the majority of integrated amplifiers, which are technically compromised in order to meet their price target, an Audio Note integrated amplifier is a full pre-power amplifier combination, complete with independent power supplies....
Then maybe you can explain this quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Qvortrup
The Meishu's pre-amplifier is only designed to be used with the P3 for bi-amplification it is NOT designed as a general purpose pre-amplifier.
The power amplifier section needs to be loaded with a speaker load otherwise it will, if left with signal in and no load, damage either the valves or the output transformers or both.
On the other hand, there are products on the market when the preamp sections can be used as a general purpose amplifier.
The point you are trying to make in the second part is rather unclear, the 800D will go louder and deeper than any current production Audio Note, the 800D spec is a freefield measurement, whereas the AN-E/Spe is an in-room corner loaded measurement. Secondly, the B&Ws (800D, 802D) covers about the same equivalent bandwidth with 3 drivers that the AN-E covers with a single driver, at 8 inchs, is the same size as a single 802D bass driver and smaller than any of the bass drivers of the 801D or 800D. In addition the B&Ws have a much stronger frame as well as larger internal volume. Given all these, it is a practical impossibility given optimal driving conditions that the AN-E can go deeper or sound clearer than the B&Ws, especially <100Hz. The B&Ws have the AN-E totally whipped in the resolution and bass depth department by design and they can play louder Note the B&W can be used reasonably close to a wall, you just need to know what you are doing.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Did I tell you?How can we learn anything if it always turns like this?The More Watts in Steel Cage
I did not take time to read the thread until I noticed it was in the steel cage. I knew the dynamic duo of audio (Flo and RGA) must be at it again.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
The only beef I have with the comment is the implication Peter makes that all other integrated are always built with compromise to achieve a price target. When you really think about it, there isn't a product on Earth that isn't compromised in this fashion to some degree. But, that's a rather unfair comment to make. Instead of accusing companies of lining their products, why not approach it from the point of view of the consumer who doesn't want to fork out big bucks for 2 separate boxes where no audible advantages exist.
Well Audio Note is considering costs for the average Joe which is why they save the consumer money by putting two separate componants in one box. This is different that designing and building a new 'inferior' product to lower the price to hit a target market. The difference is that the OTO got cheaper and also got better than the M1 and P1.
Don;t get me wrong I'm not saying there are not great integrated amplifiers -- there are MANY I like and of course all companies have budget products including AN. So Peter makes compromises. That is why I think he should re-write what he has said there. I understand what he means in that he didn't go and make a compromised integrated to meet the accountants' plan, but make a less pricey version of their separates. But the M1 and P1 are technically compromised or priced to less financially well off market which is what he accused other makers of doing. In other words he is listening to the M10 and Gaku-on not the P1 and M1 or OTO (these are targetted at a budget).
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I can't speak for Bryston's integrateds, but smaller power supplies aside, a lot of integrateds aren't much different than their separate counterparts. A lot of cost is eliminated when you don't have to build 2 chassis, and buy a whole separate power supply (even small ones cost a good chunk of dough).
Well the difference is that the B60 isn't as good and it's targetted to people with less money and hopefully more efficient speakers. I'm far less interested in the technology than the result. I could care less if it's in one box or ten boxes. I prefer the Sugden A21a sound wise to a great many separates that are out there at more money. Sometimes separates are better. Both can be expensive or inexpensive -- At one time I was considering a tube preamp and two monoblocks for what would have been $497.00US from ASL. My point though was about watts -- going separates can actually provide less watts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
You can take apart an old NAD integrated (I haven't checked new models) and compare the guts to a smaller amp and pre-amp. You'd be hard pressed to find a difference in circuitry where it matters. Most of them are the same. The difference is their circuits are integrated, so there's no input/output stage on the two components in the traditional sense, just a direct feed. The power supply is generally the same size as the amplifiers, so I suppose it is disadvantaged by having to power a whole other piece of electronics, but pre-amps dont' consume much power at all and once activated don't fluctuate current demands much and won't make difference unless you overdrive the amp anyway. Arcam has been quite successful at employing this strategy. Especially with their newer a/v receivers, which are the best sounding a/v receivers I've ever heard.
Well I can't argue this but what one company does is not what all companies do. There are several OTO amps one is a push pull -- looking at it you can;t tell the difference -- but there is a world of difference when the cover is taken off. AN simply has bulk boxes to cover the inards. I had an arcam Delta 290 integrated which has an internal switch to make it a power amp - the power amp section is identical to the Delta 290P power amp. So yes many companies use the exact same power amp. Though the separates to me sounded better than the 290. Again it's largely going to be company and design dependant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Adcom even made a few integrateds for awhile, but gave up on this practice not because the product was compromised, but because their customers didn't like the marriage of both components requiring upgrading both at once. Perception drives this business more than substance, I think.
I always liked Integrated if they had a preout. This way you could buy a good integrated on a budget and then later down the road buy a power amp and use the integrated's preamp. Then years later you could save up and trade the integrated in for the preamp. This is one of the best things about going with an integrated so I don;t buy Adcom's line - most others not in home theater seem to like integrated's.
That is one down side with some of AN's Integrated's in that they are matched for specific power amplifiers according to their level system approach and very likely the impedence matching.
Indeed, I'm not sure that the Ongaku even has outputs for separate add ons -- but then it was not really designed to meet a price point.
|