McChrystal betrays us, (not Petraeus!)

[Feanor]

I don't think our enemy is the Taliban, I think Karzai is our enemy. I think Obama was right for letting Karzai know that this is not an open ended engagement, and he needs to get his government in order(get rid of the corruption), so his own people can trust in it(at least as much as we trust ours, which isn't much). The Afghan people are a stronger army than ours in this case. The west cannot look at Afghanistan they way it does. It is not a country per se, but a series of providences run by locals. Trying to establish a central government in a country that has been run by providential government is not easy. When you have a government in place that the people have no faith in, it becomes impossible. The Taliban are harsh people, but if non Taliban Afghani's are not willing to fight them, then why should we?

We need to get out of there ASAP. We should have learned from our Iraq debacle that the people in Afghanistan do not appreciate our sacrifice of blood and resources. And we should not be there trying to muscle our way in on their minerals.
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Indeed I think all Afganis are our enemies. All regions and tribes fundamentaly disrespect us. And this is nothing new, it goes back to British attempts to subdue the region in the 19th century. We'll never win their hearts & minds.

I would ordinarily say that when you invade somebody's country you owe it to them to leave in a peaceful and reasonably stable state. Maybe we can do that in Iraq, but I really doubt it's possible in the Afgan case. Too big a proportion of the population there really just want to get back to killing each other.

Biden has more discretion than McChrystal, but I recall at one point he said the most we should and can do is punish El Qaeda and others whose main intent is to attach western nations, but leave the Afgans to fight their own civil war. That was fundamentally good advice

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Indeed I think all Afganis are our enemies. All regions and tribes fundamentaly disrespect us. And this is nothing new, it goes back to British attempts to subdue the region in the 19th century. We'll never win their hearts & minds.

And we won't because they remember the Brits and Russians quite well. Chased them both out in shame, and we are next. You cannot change hundreds of years of indoctrination in one war, and when the people don't really want the change. However, I would not go as far as saying all Afghani's are our enemies. I think their mentality is our enemy, not they as people. Wars are always going to have civilian causalities, and any idea that you can fight one without it happening is ludicrous. We are trying to accommodate a request that is impossible, and it is endangering our troops. It's not their troops, it OUR troops, and they don't give a damn about OUR troops.

I would ordinarily say that when you invade somebody's country you owe it to them to leave in a peaceful and reasonably stable state. Maybe we can do that in Iraq, but I really doubt it's possible in the Afgan case. Too big a proportion of the population there really just want to get back to killing each other.

I don't think it is going to happen in either country. The poor in both countries want more power, and the people in power are determined to keep it. The common thread I see in both countries that really hamper any kind of success is the lack of drive of its people for fighting for their own freedom. Nobody can fight for your freedom, you have to.

Biden has more discretion than McChrystal, but I recall at one point he said the most we should and can do is punish El Qaeda and others whose main intent is to attach western nations, but leave the Afgans to fight their own civil war. That was fundamentally good advice

It is excellent advice!