Just wondering....

Has anyone been keeping up with the Zimmerman trial? And what are your thoughts?

Guilty! George did everything wrong. If he had stayed in his car like the dispatcher suggested. Knock, knock

At the very beginning the police handled it poorly.

Yeah, kinda hard to shoot someone if your not packin and you stayed in your car.

When I was home for lunch, CNN was going on about the weight Zimmerman had gained and it's impact on the jury. I didn't have much time to get fully up to speed so I could be wrong about the following:

Apparently the judge originally decided to keep out many of Zimmerman's earlier calls to 911 for other incidents (not related to Trayvon). But I think he has revisited that ruling.

Other tidbits:
The prosecution's opening statement lasted about 30 mins. and defense's opening lasted 2 1/2 hours.
When I was watching, the witness on the stand was on the phone with Trayvon when Zimmerman confronted him. That's the first time I had heard that Trayvon was on the phone with someone.

Well it seems like this case could be over already and its day 3. Zimmerman said Trvon banged his head on the concrete. Well where the body lay its to far from the concrete. One witness says she saw the scuffle but could not make out who was who because it was to dark outside. But she did say when they where on the ground, she saw the guy on top that was doing the punching get up and the other guy never moved after that. So during cross, they asked who was the biggest person, and she said Zimmerman. He said how do you know who was bigger it was dark? She said I saw the pictures the next day on tv thats how I know who was bigger. The defense then said so you saw it on tv and determined it was George who was bigger and Martin smaller? (he is trying to impeach her testimony)
She said yes. The defense then showed her pictures of Martin and asked is this one of the pictures? She said yes. Then they said "do you know thats a piecture of Martin when he was 13? (trying to discredit her testimony) Defense said "thats all". Then the prosecutor got back up to rebut. He asked her "who got up...the person on the bottom or the person on top?" She then answered "The guy on top got up" Then the prosecutor said he was done. The reason why that is so important is because Zimmerman said he was on the bottom when he shot Martin. And had to turn him over to get him off of him. If that is so, why did the guy on top get up and walk away?

The next witness called was the girl talking to Martin right before he got shot. She was great...the defense tried to impeach her, but her testimony was powerful. As she was talking to Martin, he said some guy was following him....but the most inmportant part is she said Martin said "get off me! get off me! That shows that Zimmerman was the agressor and not Martin. The only hang up is the jury. Any thing can go wrong with a jury. Its clear in my book....Zimmerman is a murder. Oh and they have about 50 calls where Zimmerman has made those same exact calls to 911. They played 4 of them in court. It seems Zimmerman was on the hunt for black guys in his hood because they have had a rash of break ins over the years. So every black guys in his mind was in one group and all guilty....his words to the 911 guy on the phone was "they always get away" meaning those black guys who come into my hood. Zimmerman was a profiler.

Judging by George's weight gain I would have to say he was robbing Mr. Martin for his skittles.

I wish it was only skittles....But its to bad he really robbed the kid of his life...so sad.

Zimmerman might well get off and that might be the right verdict under the law -- too bad maybe but guilt has to be established beyond reasonable doubt.

How many here have been jury members in a criminal trial? I was, I know that a person might well be guilty but that if proof beyond reasonable doubt just isn't there, verdict must be "Not guilty".

Let's look at the bigger picture. What's a neighbourhood watch volunteer doing carrying a gun? (It wouldn't be permitted in Canada and if watch guy shot somebody he would be charged with murder ipso facto. But Zimmerman was allowed to have a gun: did having one embolden him? I dare say it did.

And then there's "Stand Your Ground Law" that permits deadly force without first attempting to evade a violent confrontation. If Zimmerman confronts Martin who then attacks him, who's to say Zimmerman didn't shoot in self-defence? Only physical evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not, in fact, dangerously threatened, otherwise he must be acquitted.

Incidentally racism might have been a factor with Zimmerman but it's unprovable and I don't see it would have much legal weight. Rather it's two bad laws: (1) the right to carry a loaded gun in public, and (2) stand-your-ground that are the essential causes of Martin's death.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frenchmon

I wish it was only skittles....But its to bad he really robbed the kid of his life...so sad.

---

Please do not think that my commenting on his weight in any way lessons the tragedy of what happened. I was angered and still angry that someone who was supposed to keep the area safe was one of the bigger dangers. I am also upset that the police did not haul George in for interrogation. I will be even angrier if George is not found guilty.

JM...no worries.

Feanor...have you been watching on TV?

No one, I mean no one thinks the key witness was lying after yeasterday. The defense is trying hard to impeach the testimony of these witnesses but there is just too much in favor of Trevon Martin...especially when Zimmerman has lied about being on the bottom, and what was really strong against Zimmerman was when the girl on the phone at the time he was murdered said she heard Martin say "get off" "get off". He also told the girl "some creepy white guy is following me..im going to try and lose him" Then after a while he said. "There he is again". The girl then said to Martin "Run!" Martin replied " I aint running no more...I'm all most at my dads house he can help me" After that the next thing she heard was when Martin said "get off!" get off!" she then heard a scuffle and the then the phone cut off. When Martin said "get off" establishes the fact of Zimmerman being the agressor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feanor

And then there's "Stand Your Ground Law" that permits deadly force without first attempting to evade a violent confrontation.

Incidentally racism might have been a factor with Zimmerman but it's unprovable and I don't see it would have much legal weight.

---

I agree that concealed carry along with Stand Your Ground is a bad idea. I also think George Zimmerman has a history of prejudice based on his calls to dispatcher's. His comment that they always get away says vigilante to me. A combination of hate, a gun and a law that empowers people to become afraid to justify behaviors is a lethal combination. If he was afraid he could have stayed in his car and driven away. To me his actions showed he was acting out of prejudice.

You know what is more interesting? all the photos of GZ directly after the incident showed no signs of a broken nose or cuts to the back of his head, which would surely have left blood on his clothing as head wound bleed good. Then the next day he is wearing large band aids on his head.

If the back of his head had been smashed into the pavement as claimed, there would have been cuts and blood at the time of the incident. Seems to me as soon as he contacted his lawyer, they concocted the story and scuffed up his head a bit to try and back it up.

I thought that was fake when I first saw the coverage. What bothered me from the beginning is why it took so long for George to be questioned let alone be charged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I agree that concealed carry along with Stand Your Ground is a bad idea. I also think George Zimmerman has a history of prejudice based on his calls to dispatcher's. His comment that they always get away says vigilante to me. A combination of hate, a gun and a law that empowers people to become afraid to justify behaviors is a lethal combination. If he was afraid he could have stayed in his car and driven away. To me his actions showed he was acting out of prejudice.

---

It's also a fact that the race card has been played by Martin's family and the media. Very likely racism was a factor with Zimmerman, but my point is that bad gun & stand-your-ground laws would have made the scenario almost as likely if Zimmerman and Martin had both been black, both white, or both whatever.

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyfi

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.

---

It remains to be seen whether Stand-you-ground will be invoked in this case. Of course Zimmerman ought to have followed police instructions. I suggest because he was carrying a gun he was emboldened to confront Martin instead of following instructions.

This is the significance of too many people with guns: that it provokes rash behavior leading to death 'way too often.

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy. Look at those Duke University LaCrosse players a few years ago.

And, while we're at it, hoccum there's no mention of this little incident by the mass media? It sure looks like a much more heinous crime to me. Perhaps the baby that was shot in the face was the wrong color? More interestingly, it seems that according to this later article that helping the perps conceal their crime is a real family affair.

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

GZs job as a Neighborhood Watch participant ended with his call to the police. Period!

The reference to all his other calls and statements like "They always get away" shows this to be more racially motivated than not. I would bet if it was a chubby white boy with his pants falling down, his actions would have been different. But it was a black kid in a hoody, which in his views meant criminal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyfi

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

---

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markw

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy.

---

Uhhh, hold on there pardner. FOX just said that the only evidence of racism is Martin's use of the word "cracker". I'm not sure if they're referring to a saltine, Ritz, oyster or one of those fancy party crackers.

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.

---

Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.

But, sometimes when things don't look "right", some investigation is called for. It was mentioned that there have been "happeniongs" in that neighborhood in the past and he was just checking the situation out. Perhaps Mr. Zimmernman's curiosity could have prevented this recent occurance in an upper-class, liberal, lily-white, neighborhood. Sumptin' tells me that applications for gun permits are gonna soar in that neighborhood.

No offense, but you live in a place where problems are relatively few. If you want an education of what goes on around here on a daily basis, periodicaly check out NJ.COM to see what goes on around here on a daily basis. We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markw

Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.

---

Your "crux" is wrong. We can watch the trial live and re-plays at night. Stop rolling out that tired old BS about the msm. I'll give you this much, however, PRE-TRIAL publicity can be less than thorough, not necessarily because the media is filtering in favor of one side or the other but because the actual parties are releasing their most favorable spin.

This is getting interesting. Those pictures of Zimmerman with his nose all busted up and bloody was right after the gun shoot. At least that's what the girl who called that popular 911 shot with the scream in the back ground said. But Martin did not have a scratch on his hands or blood any where on his body...all but a little on his shirt. Something aint right. If you punch someones nose bloody and break it and its bleeding all over, you have to have a least a little trace of blood on you but Martin had none. George also said in an earlier recording that he did not know who scream that was, but now its suppose to be his screams for help. I assume that will come out after all the witnesses have testified.

Also...the 19 year old girl was not as intelligent as she should have been. She was confusing at times and the defense took advantage of her in a bad way, but she was very believable in her testimony. She could not read cursive writing and will finish high school a year later...but that's ok...she is going to the 12th grade. She is of Dominican and Hattie heritage, and speaks very softly...that may be why her English is a little broken making it hard to understand. Even tho the defense twisted her into a pretzel, she is very credible...at least in my opinion.

After hearing the other 4, 911 calls by GZ, I am convinced he was profiling black guys. He put all black guys who came in his hood in one group and as no good. If I walked in that hood to go visit JM who also lived there, and GZ saw me, he would assume I was there to rob the place, he would then call 911 and then follow me.....and to be clear....GZ had 50 such calls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feanor

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE.)

---

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.



Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dean_martin

Your "crux" is wrong. We can watch the trial live and re-plays at night. Stop rolling out that tired old BS about the msm. I'll give you this much, however, PRE-TRIAL publicity can be less than thorough, not necessarily because the media is filtering in favor of one side or the other but because the actual parties are releasing their most favorable spin.

---

We can watch the entire trial but we both know most of the country won't. They'll fight for the scraps the MSM throws out on the nightly news and internet websites. Also, we both know that peoples minds were made up before the trial even started, and now they are lining up for the lynching.

I'd really like to see the baby shooter I linked to earlier held up to MSM public scrutiny like this fiasco was, but you know that ain't gonna happen. ...and you know why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyfi

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.

Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!

---

Well Happy Birthday to Mark.

Concealed carry permits are practically impossible to get in Canada; if they were I'd apply for one. However the last thing I'd want, personally, is to be actually seen carrying a gun.

The highest crime rates in Canada are among aboriginals, (native Indians). You're right that we don't have the same volume of illegal immigrants here. On the other hand Canada admits about 3x the number of (legal) immigrants per capita compared to the USA. Overall crime rates are trending slightly downward here as they are in the USA.

I'm not sure why total population size would have much to do with fewer gun deaths. According to the same reference I sited, Honduras has the highest rate of gun homicides, 64.8/100k (!!) and its population is only 8.2M. Looking at city sizes, the population of the greater Toronto area is 5.5M and the homicide rate is 3.3/100k, while the greater Detroit area has a similar pop of 5.2M but a homicide rate of 46/100k.

Despite that I'm a gun owner myself, I'm inclined to believe that, overall statistically, guns don't protect us, they get us killed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markw

We can watch the entire trial but we both know most of the country won't. They'll fight for the scraps the MSM throws out on the nightly news and internet websites. Also, we both know that peoples minds were made up before the trial even started, and now they are lining up for the lynching.

I'd really like to see the baby shooter I linked to earlier held up to MSM public scrutiny like this fiasco was, but you know that ain't gonna happen. ...and you know why.

---

Mark, you are just plain tiring, and sound like a broken needle with all of this liberal crap. This is about a life, not about politics. A young black male was shot dead for no reason at all, and you still think this is about liberal/conservative. We are not talking about any other case here than the Martin/Zimmerman case. So give us a break with the mud, so the water can remain clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Guilty! George did everything wrong. If he had stayed in his car like the dispatcher suggested. Knock, knock

---

Simply, this ^^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Mark, you are just plain tiring, and sound like a broken needle with all of this liberal crap. This is about a life, not about politics. A young black male was shot dead for no reason at all, and you still think this is about liberal/conservative. We are not talking about any other case here than the Martin/Zimmerman case. So give us a break with the mud, so the water can remain clear.

---

Frankly, terry, I couldn't care less about what you think.

As I said earlier, your minds are alread made up. Reading this thread confirms that. You're all just sitting here, rubbing tour hands, looking for reasons to justify your already formed beliefs, and having a schadenfreude orgasm waiting for the verdict.

Now, since the trial isn't over, were did these beliefs come from?

Apparantly that a 13 month old WHITE baby was shot in the face in his stroller right in front of his mother by a BLACK punk doesn't seem to bother you at all, and if that in itself isn't racist, I don't know what is. And the same goes for MSM for dropping this one and crucifying Zimmerman, a latino.

Remember, I'm not defending anoone here. I'm just pointing out that the media has played y'all (plural for yall), and y'all too brainwashed to admit it.

So, deal with it, terry.

Mark we are talking about the Zimmerman trial. Let us not bring every tragic event into this thread. You are welcome to participate but be respectful.

By the way what is MSM?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markw

Frankly, terry, I couldn't care less about what you think.

As I said earlier, your minds are alread made up. Reading this thread confirms that. You're all just sitting here, rubbing tour hands, looking for reasons to justify your already formed beliefs, and having a schadenfreude orgasm waiting for the verdict.

Now, since the trial isn't over, were did these beliefs come from?

Apparantly that a 13 month old WHITE baby was shot in the face in his stroller right in front of his mother by a BLACK punk doesn't seem to bother you at all, and if that in itself isn't racist, I don't know what is. And the same goes for MSM for dropping this one and crucifying Zimmerman, a latino.

Remember, I'm not defending anoone here. I'm just pointing out that the media has played y'all (plural for yall), and y'all too brainwashed to admit it.

So, deal with it, terry.

---

Mark, it's the two sides, the state and the victim's family, that have gone to the media in this one. The state almost always gets a jump on the defense. But, I remember the Zimmerman team's "push back" which included injuries to Zimmerman's head, the brother's media tour and Martin's troubles in school. Both sides were covered by the so-called msm leading up to the trial.

There are so many news outlets today. I think what we thought of as the mainstream media in the past has become quite diluted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Mark we are talking about the Zimmerman trial. Let us not bring every tragic event into this thread. You are welcome to participate but be respectful.

---

Respect is a two way street. I'm merely pointing out how easily people are whipped into a blood-thirsty mob by the media, and apparantly that riles one or more here. I do wonder how a supposedly educated population could be so easily maniplated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

By the way what is MSM? I am aware of MSN, CNN, FAUX but not MSM. Sounds like something I would like.

---

I do hope that's a joke. If not, well, I think I just got some insight into one of my questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markw

Respect is a two way street. I'm merely pointing out how easily people are whipped into a blood-thirsty mob by the media, and apparantly that riles one or more here. I do wonder how a supposedly educated population could be so easily maniplated.

I do hope that's a joke. If not, well, I think I just got some insight into one of my questions.

---

So Mark, are you saying that you feel that a guy with a gun who got out of his car and followed the kid when told not to, and then shot him did so in self defense? Are you saying the kid deserved to get killed and instigated the whole thing?

That is what it sounds like, media or no media.

Mark by respect I meant how you adress other members.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Mark by respect I meant how you adress other members.

---

Here we go again....you may want to check the post he responded to for Respect, yeah, the one you "Liked"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyfi

Here we go again....you may want to check the post he responded to for Respect, yeah, the one you "Liked"

---

I was responding to Mark calling Sir T by terry. Sir T called Mark, Mark and not marky. I liked the point Sir T was making and yes it could have been worded differently. If we are talking about the Zimmerman trial bringing anything else into it muddies the waters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyfi

So Mark, are you saying that you feel that a guy with a gun who got out of his car and followed the kid when told not to, and then shot him did so in self defense? Are you saying the kid deserved to get killed and instigated the whole thing?

That is what it sounds like, media or no media.

---

No, I think Zimmernman was an idiot and deserves to pay for it. Shooting an apparantly unarmed person does warrant some questions. I would like to know exactly what happened but I don't think it's as black and white (no pun intended) as everbody thinks.

My point in this tread was it amazes me how much media play this one crime gets when, in when big picture, there were many more crimes worthy of a public lynching. That baby shot in the face, for instance, but like I said earlier, a black shooting whites (even a 13 month old baby, apparantly) isn't news, but a latino shooting a black guarantees lotsa viewers. Playing two race cards at once here.

Gotta go with the entertainment factor here, and everyone loves a good lynching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I was responding to Mark calling Sir T by terry. Sir T called Mark, Mark and not marky. I liked the point Sir T was making and yes it could have been worded differently. If we are talking about the Zimmerman trial bringing anything else into it muddies the waters.

---

Sorry,but when he "talks" to me in that manner, I see no reason to play up to his affectations by wasting time typing out his long, pretentious, name just to feed his already over-inflated ego.