Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[nightflier]

Look, you brought it up, and through your posts a pretty dark side poked through. I'm just pointing it out.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If I may, in defense of Christianity, "imposing" it, is wrong according to doctrine. One is to submit to the will of God, if that person is persecuted and then submits, they really aren't submitting to God they are submitting to the persecutor. Jesus instructed the apostles to spread the Word but if they go into a town where no one will listen to dust off their feet and leave. No where in the New Testament which is binding on people in these times do you see "imposing". If any one was persecuted it was Jews and Christians. This is only referring to the writing in the New Testament. God gave us free will who is any man to try and take it away? Well, that is if one believes in God.

Just wading in here...this is absolutely correct. And when you find Christians trying to impose their will (see the works of the Catholic Church) they are out of the will of God

One can call themselves what they will but it don't make it so. History is full of much evil that was done in the name of Christianity. The thing about the Bible is the same with any book if you cherry pick lines here and there you can make it say pretty much what you want. To understand a book it has to be taken complete and in context, it does help to grasp the intended meaning.

Also correct. However there is a dangerous undercurrent that is floating amongst the current church. The "literal" interpretation of scripture when it was meant for symbolic, and the reverse. Another disease is the pious judgement of others, when that is not our place. We are constantly displacing what is historical, and placing it wrongfully into the present. For instance, in the old testament, God commanded the children of Israel to destroy their enemies, man, women and children. To use this as a justification for war today would completely ignore the loving words of Jesus Christ found in John 13:34,35, John 15:12 and 17, Romans 12:10 and Romans 13:8. George W. Bush who was supposed to be a Godly man, did this at least twice, and was probably the best cherry picker in my lifetime.

[3LB]

You just keep spewing forth your verbal diarrhea in the hopes you'll elicit a response and further derail the subject!

so what's he guilty of...beating us to it






np: new Muse!

[markw]

so what's he guilty of...beating us to it

I answered your concerns in post 54. Try to keep up, will ya? ...or back to the "special" bus for you.

BTW, I do give you credit for sanding up to Feanor with his Texas/Alabama comparison to Afghanistan. Maybe there's hope for you yet.

[markw]

Look, you brought it up, and through your posts a pretty dark side poked through. I'm just pointing it out.

Are you saying that it cannot happen here?

Are you saying that we should face the future fat, happy and stupid with eyes closed to the possibilities?

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

[nightflier]

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

Nonsense. Are you just willfully ignoring the numbers?

[markw]

Nonsense. Are you just willfully ignoring the numbers?

Not now, but check af those numbers a few years down the road.

Didn't you read ANYTHING I posted?

[nightflier]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

[markw]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

Are you saying that it cannot happen here?

Are you saying that we should face the future fat, happy and stupid with eyes closed to the possibilities?

Remember, it's already gained a foothold in England (read the postd link!) and was recently voted down in Canada. Europe seems poised too. That bulge on the side of the tent just might be the camel.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

All that we know is what is true now. The links you posted make predictions based in hysteria. They repeatedly interchange terms like foreign-born, Muslim, and Sharia law to make the supposed threat that much more fantastic. And the sources are right up your alley, too, from overly conservative and paranoid sources. Look, I can find sources that make all sorts of amazing predictions on the net, and they will still be just predictions from debatable sources. What we do know is that Muslims make up a small fraction of the population in England and other Western countries (between 2 & 4%, in most cases). Likewise, the numbers of those who practice of Sharia law is a fraction of that, and of those, the ones who participate in violence is infinitesimally small.

You are just fear-mongering, plain and simple and it comes from a rather disturbing political position. You are just ignoring the facts and letting your paranoia dictate your judgment.

I don't think your numbers are quite right. In France alone its 6-9% of the population. In Germany 4.9%. In Cyprus its 18%. Denmark its it 2-3.7%. In Belgium it's 4%. In Albania its 65-70%. Italy 1.7%. The Netherlands 5.5-6%. Sweden its 3%. Switzerland its 4%. England its 3.3%. Spain 3.3%. This is just for Western, Eastern and Southern Europe.

When combined together, that is significantly more than 2-4%. France alone exceeds that. That is not to say these are all sharia law practicioners, but just the Muslim populations in these individual countries.

It is VERY widely believed that no country really practices Sharia law. What they practice now is a Sharia law interpreted solely by weak males looking to keep control of women and children. The real Sharia laws do not do that. This Sharia law we are seeing is a bastardized version of the original.

This is a hard one to call. When one religious group migrates to another country, and then demands that their laws guide their own people in that country, it does give the impression of a law hijack, and ultimately leads to more demands of control. As the migrating population increases, and the native population decreases, a takeover can happen, and if radical enough, with the population permissive enough, it will happen. Any where there are freedoms, this possibility does exist, and one cannot discount it.

Then of course there is the paranoia of the other side to consider as well.

We have seen it in Britian, France, and Canada.

[nightflier]

Well my figures where from Wikipedia, but now that I've double-checked them, they are a bit older. That said, we're still talking about percentages that are very small. Even the fascist parties in those countries outnumber them significantly.

Point is, I'm not too worried, I'm not planning on having lotsa babies because of it, and I'm certainly not going to put guns in the hands of my children for that reason. This supposed fear of Islam is so overblown and misused that I take issue with those who perpetuate it. The numbers just don't support the implied urgency.

[markw]

Well my figures where from Wikipedia, but now that I've double-checked them, they are a bit older. That said, we're still talking about percentages that are very small. Even the fascist parties in those countries outnumber them significantly.

Point is, I'm not too worried, I'm not planning on having lotsa babies because of it, and I'm certainly not going to put guns in the hands of my children for that reason. This supposed fear of Islam is so overblown and misused that I take issue with those who perpetuate it. The numbers just don't support the implied urgency.

I can just imagine you as a Native American saying such stuff as a group of them watches the arriving ships carrying the first Europeans.

Ever see the movie "Idiocracy? Check out the red/blue distribution of cities within states for the 2008 presidantal vote and tell me if you see a pattern. This might take a bit of thought, being you're a dyed-in-the-wool bleeding heart liberal and tend to be blind to the stark truth but, you might be able to figure out the connection of the thoughts contained in this paragraph, if you try hard enough.

..and that's not why the boys own guns, silly man. You really do like your straw men, doncha? But, you don't want to break into their homes or try to harm their family, trust me,

[atomicAdam]

I think this thread should get moved into the cage and you all should calm down a bit if not just back away.

[bobsticks]

By the way, 85% of the people there are also white (Indo-European), in case that was bothering you, too. But this is a broad brush, we're painting with, because of those 2.4M Muslims, only a small portion practice or agree with Sharia law, and an even smaller number believe in violent terrorism as a means of advancing their beliefs. And by small number, I'm talking about an extremely small fraction of the Muslim population. As a matter of fact, the British security forces have been relying heavily on cooperation from secular Muslims and they have done a remarkable job of policing their own extremists. There are still terrorist attacks, yes, but they hardly represent the views or methods of the vast majority of Muslims there.

Strangely, i find myself in alignment with 'flier on this one. I have known a great many people that were of the Muslim faith and very few came close to observing the strict laws of "proper Shiara" (and I agree with T that it has largely ben perverted to meet the political needs of certain leaders)

That occurance in Britain needs to be one that is replicated throughout the world. If there is one criticism that can be levied against moderate Muslims it's their reluctance to stand against the extremist fringe.

[3LB]

As the migrating population increases, and the native population decreases, a takeover can happen, and if radical enough, with the population permissive enough, it will happen.

Yes, that's true - white European decendants living in North America is proof of that...I'm still waiting to see what it is we're suppose to do about it (whomever 'we' is).

[nightflier]

Sticks, I really tried to steer this one back to the OT a couple of posts back.

[bobsticks]

Sticks, I really tried to steer this one back to the OT a couple of posts back.

It's all good.

IMHO, any conversation about modern Islam is necessarily going to involve the differentiation between Shiara Law and the "average, everyday" Muslim...I didn't move this thread (though I understand why it was moved)...but at the same time I think it's an important conversation...

[ForeverAutumn]

Three Jordanians kill sister over 'bad reputation'

AMMAN (AFP) - Three Jordanian men were charged on Tuesday with premeditated murder after allegedly stabbing to death their divorced sister as well as burning her body and house over her "bad reputation," police said.

"The three brothers all under 30, agreed to kill their 40-year-old sister on Sunday because she allegedly had a bad reputation," in Abu Alanda, in southeast Amman, a police spokesman told AFP.

"She was stabbed 15 times. One of the three told police that the mother of five had a love affair with a man and that he found pictures of the woman sitting with her alleged lover."

The spokesman said the suspects "burned the victim's body and set ablaze her house to cover the crime."

"They were arrested at hospital after being treated for burns. They confessed to the murder," added.

Murder is punishable by the death penalty in Jordan but in the case of so-called "honour killings" a court usually commutes or reduces sentences, particularly if the victim's family urges leniency.

The US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) urged Jordan earlier this month to reform its penal code, which it says condones the murder of women as "honour crimes."

In the past, parliament has refused to institute harsher penalties.

Around 15-20 women are murdered each year in Jordan in the name of honour, despite government efforts to fight such crimes. So far this year, there have been 16 reported.

[nightflier]

I certainly don't mean to lessen the crimes and I do hope the courts in Jordan improve, but it isn't exactly like this type of violence is unheard of here at home. Lemme recount some of the more colorful things that have happened here in the OC:

- Just a couple of weeks ago, a young black woman was found beaten to death and burned beyond recognition in one of the safest cities in America: Irvine, California, right next door to where I live.

- Then a week later, a grad student at UC Irvine sprayed the parking lot with gunfire, shooting his wife in the back and killing her and just barely missing his toddler. Apparently they had had a dispute over money and daycare responsibilities.

- I don't exactly remember when this one happened, I think last summer: a woman leaving her church in her SUV ran over an elderly woman in a walker crushed her head with the tire and drove off leaving the poor woman dead on the road in front of the whole exiting congregation. Why did she do it? Apparently the elderly woman was moving too slow!

- Not too long ago, a man walked up to his business partner in broad daylight in a busy restaurant and shot the man in the face, splattering the whole place with blood. Apparently the poor sap had been too friendly with his partner's wife - how's that for an honor killing?

- Another recent case involved what was first thought to be a home invasion, but turned out to be a domestic dispute: an Asian woman was found hog-tied, hanging in a side-room and beaten to death with a fireplace poke, the bloody thing still hanging in her flesh when they found her.

This is just a partial list, I'm not even going to go into the other cases of child abuse, wife-abuse, rape, racial incidents, and misogynistic crap that goes on in this most safe, most conservative, and most Christian of counties. I'm good friends with an assistant DA, and she can tell you some stories. But you know what really chaps her hide? In almost every case that goes to trial, the defense lawyer brings up the fact that the accused is a good church-going citizen. Then if so, why the unbelievable violence? This is hardly what friggin' Jesus would do.

[Mr Peabody]

I believe the point is in Jordan those types of crimes would result in minor punishment where in the U.S. we have strict laws against them, although, in California it seems you can get away with anything as long as you are white.

[ForeverAutumn]

nightflier, my point wasn't the crime as much as the punishment. You've provided a list of heinous crimes. But what you've neglected to include is the corresponding punishment.

While this article doesn't state the punishiment for the brothers who have murdered their sister, it implies that, by Jordanian law, this is not considered much of a crime since the sister dishonoured her family. What of the man that she had an affair with? Probably nothing...because he's a man and the rules of honour do not apply (I am making assumptions here, admittedly).

Certainly there are instances in both the US and Canada where the court is, for whatever reason, lenient on an offender. However, seldom does the victim's family ask for leniency whereas it's the defence lawyer's job to ask for it.

Not too long ago, a man walked up to his business partner in broad daylight in a busy restaurant and shot the man in the face, splattering the whole place with blood. Apparently the poor sap had been too friendly with his partner's wife - how's that for an honor killing?

This is not an honour killing in the same context. If it were, the man would have killed his wife, not his business partner. What was the killer's punishement? Did the dead business partner's family ask the court for leniency for his killer? I'd bet not.

[nightflier]

The killer got a life sentence, I believe.

My point is that these kinds of crimes are not seen as often in Jordan. While the plight of women is horribly unbalanced, the relative safety of people living in conservative Muslim societies is much better. I repeat, I am not at all making excuses for the men involved in the Jordan cases. They should all be subject to equal laws as women, and I really do hope that someday they will. That said, for all its evils, especially inside the prisons, life in many Muslim countries is safer from violence for a larger part of the population.

This isn't my opinion, that is statistical fact. The kinds of crimes I've described that occurred right in my own county, just don't happen with the same frequency, if at all, in conservative Muslim countries. There are two simple reasons for that: religious conviction and the heavy-handed punishment. I'm not going to suggest for a minute that I'd rather live there than here, but there are many Jordanians who would probably say the same about life here in the US. It should also be pointed out that it's not so much from Jordan that Muslims are emigrating to the West.

What strikes me the most, is that here in the US, life's misfortunes are dealt out much more haphazardly than in many other countries. There is far more unpredictability here. Perhaps it's because more people have guns, maybe our racial problems have never been adequately addressed, or maybe we are more sexually repressed, I don't know. But there is a sense of danger here that does not exist to the same extent in many other countries. I've been in many difficult situations in my life (been mugged a few times, had my house and my car broken into a few times, and have seen my share of violence close-up), but it might surprise you that the vast majority of them have been here in the US, not while traveling abroad.

At some point you have to ask yourself: where are my odds for safety the best? Is it possible that here in the US we are so bombarded by media, entertainment, and talking heads, that we forget this simple equation? Maybe Canada is a lot better, I don't know. I've only been to Quebec on a short lay-over, so I can't say. But it's quite plain that the US no longer has the luster it once had for people other than old, rich, white, healthy men (and I'm not one of those).

[bobsticks]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...BrandChannel=0

By Kevin Gray

MIAMI (Reuters) - An American Christian preacher who caused an international uproar last year by threatening to burn the Koran has put himself back in the spotlight after incinerating Islam's holy book -- again with deadly consequences.

Thousands of protesters in northern Afghanistan, enraged over news that the Florida pastor Terry Jones had overseen a torching of the Koran, stormed a United Nations compound on Friday, killing at least seven U.N. staff.

Jones, a 58-year-old fundamentalist pastor and the head of a small fringe church in Gainesville, Florida, drew worldwide condemnation in September over his plans to burn the Koran on the anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Several people were killed in protests then in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world.

Jones eventually canceled that event under intense pressure from the U.S. government, the Pope, and other global leaders.

But he has remained an outspoken critic of Islam, and says parts of the Koran can lead to violence and terrorism.

On March 20, he presided over what he called an "International Judge the Koran Day" in which he supervised the burning of the book in front of some 50 people.

Video posted on the website of his Dove World Outreach Center church showed a kerosene-soaked book going up in bright flames in a metal fire pit similar to those often found in backyards and patios, but located inside the church

[ForeverAutumn]

I hope he's proud of himself.

[Hyfi]

But it's OK that they routinely burn American Flags, right?