Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

See that is not very fair. I may question peoples beliefs, but I will never tell you what to believe, or tell anyone that they are wrong because they don't believe what I do. However, the stance of Christianity and it's followers is to tell everyone that their way is the only way and the right way. If you don't believe it then God will strike you down, leave you behind, send you to hell or whatever other scare tactic they choose to use to convert you. I take offense to that.

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Please don't mistake my acceptance of someone's right to believe as acceptance of their beliefs.

I don't agree with many of the things being said in this discussion. And I also take offence to many of them. Most religious arguments are based on illogical premises, as are many of the points in this thread. And although I could try to argue the point with logic, it would get me nowhere. Logic is not a part of religion. That's where "faith" comes in. Something doesn't have to be logical or empirical if you only have "faith" that it can be so.

If this discussion were more philosophical in nature I might participate more. But so far, what I see is people in conflict...nobody is trying to understand the other person's point of view but everybody is trying hard to convince the others of their own POV. I have no interest in trying to force my POV on anybody. Discussions of that nature will almost always end in stalemates, so why expend the energy?

It is entertaining reading however. :)

I would like to personally thank MarkW for America's part in ridding the world of Osama Bin Laden. Yes, for that I am grateful.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

I would like to personally thank MarkW for America's part in ridding the world of Osama Bin Laden. Yes, for that I am grateful.

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I always knew that you were a smarty pants.

This was a victory for the military and intelligence communities. End of story.

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Originally Posted by GMichael

I always knew that you were a smarty pants.

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I was going to state that I was speaking of behalf of all Canadians, but I figured that he already knows that...no need to state the obvious. :wink5:

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

I would like to personally thank MarkW for America's part in ridding the world of Osama Bin Laden. Yes, for that I am grateful.

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And I would like to thank FA for proving what she really is by her willingness to be the only female to jump onto a dogpile with nothing to add except for a snide comment.

Arf Arf....

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Originally Posted by bobsticks

Too bad y'all didn't think of that when you invented social security...are those entitlements part of the "tough love"?


Ooops, I went off topic in the Off Topic...

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Actually, SS started out as a good idea where workers paid into the system all their working lives and it generated interest. It got diluted when it was "raided" for other projects, interest went down, and the workforce shrunk, by natural and un-natural causes.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

I agree with you here in a limited degree. Illegal immigrants are mostly "from the south"; they do take entry-level jobs, and they do tend to lower the working wage. On the other hand they are willing to work so they aren't exactly freeloaders. They tend lean on social services, but then so do many bona fide American Wal-Mart employess, so I hear, who can't exist on what Uncle Sam (Walton) pays them.

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Yet yhey do put money back into the local economy.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

No surprise that the laws aren't enforced against illegal immigration. Employers love them: cheapest wages, no benefits, and they can't complain about lousy working conditions. Illegal immigration is only a sign of the vigorous operation of the free market and it isn't going to stop while business owns the politicians.

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Granted, employeers sshould be strung up but had illegals not shown a willingness to lower the wages in the first place, we would not be in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

But look on the bright side: those "from the south" are almost all Christians and one of the reasons that there is no significant internal threat to the US from Muslims.

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MAybe someday you canadians will realize that not all Christians are righties. Now, if the left-leaning, God hating obama government would only do their job and not depend on others to do it for them. In either case, yu should be thankful this country provide a big buffer between them and you.

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Originally Posted by markw

And I would like to thank FA for proving what she really is by her willingness to be the only female to jump onto a dogpile with nothing to add except for a snide comment.

Arf Arf....

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As the only female regularly posting on this site, the odds are against me. ;)

Besides, I was thanking you. I thought that's what you wanted. Gosh, I just can't win where you're concerned.

Do I still have to remove my shoes at the airport?

duh... not winning

Two of the most important concepts in the New Testament are autonomy and individualism, yet collectivism and group pressure is what's emphasized, that and of course monetary commitment.

Its none of anybody's business what I believe or where I'm going when I die. Peoples' opinions on the matter are useless where as the individual are concerned. It isn't our call.

I consider myself an individualist and am insulted by organizations that attempt to de-emphasize autonomy and individualism. Individualism is the most noble development of the human condition. Any organization that diminishes individualism devalues life. IMO of course. One man's individualism is another man's selfish bastard, so who knows, I may be spiritual trouble.

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Originally Posted by 3LB

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Two of the most important concepts in the New Testament are autonomy and individualism, yet collectivism and group pressure is what's emphasized, that and of course monetary commitment.
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Hummm ... I'm not so sure. That's really the problem with the Bible, isn't it? People take from it what they like to justify what they want.

If by "autonomy" you mean individual responsibility, then yes, perhaps. If you mean regard for self above others then definitely not. IMO, Jesus emphasizes compassion for others a lot more than individualism. (But then maybe I'm just looking to justify compassion.) Personally I don't equate compassion with "collectivism and group pressure".

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Hummm ... I'm not so sure. That's really the problem with the Bible, isn't it? People take from it what they like to justify what they want.

If by "autonomy" you mean individual responsibility, then yes, perhaps. If you mean regard for self above others then definitely not. IMO, Jesus emphasizes compassion for others a lot more than individualism. (But then maybe I'm just looking to justify compassion.) Personally I don't equate compassion with "collectivism and group pressure".

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collectivism comes into play when values are placed on compassion and its monitored and measured by groups of people who've annointed themselves experts in the field of humanitarianism.

I have no qualms helping out my fellow man, but prefer to avoid the ones that bug the fuck out of me... I did say I may be in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Hyfi, it's interesting that you believe whole hearted in the books you recommend while totally dismissing the Bible. If one believes God created the world then the bible is the first religion.

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No, I never said I believe them whole hearted, I said that I can get the best understanding of the overall story from them.

As far as God creating the world and my believing in it goes, I don't think our definitions of God are the same. I don't think it was as controlled and regulated and the way your story is told. I do believe that there is a larger form of energy that helped created the conditions for evolved life to exist on this planet, just as it probably does elsewhere in this vast universe that is too large for most to understand. I don't buy into the judgement of an all forgiving one. Again, it can be one way or the other but not both.

The books I recommended are books that helped me to understand better how to read the story and also a more logical approach to the beliefs as they were originally intended and not the distorted re-interpretations and translations as they are now.

What I do find interesting is that a form of Christianity that is the most logical and easy to get a grip on has been hidden from most history books, theology classes and other Christians in general. One difference may be that they celebrate the Life and Works of Jesus and not the Death and Resurrection as main stream Christians do. The other main reason Swedenborg religion is shunned by main stream Christianity is that they also believe that ALL Religions are just different pathways to the same God and that EVERYONE in the world may choose the path that best fits them. There is no right or wrong religion provided that everyone respect each other and do everything they do as best they can and with the interest of ALL in mind. It's pretty simple and you can live the life and have no real religion at all.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

Please don't mistake my acceptance of someone's right to believe as acceptance of their beliefs.

I don't agree with many of the things being said in this discussion. And I also take offence to many of them. Most religious arguments are based on illogical premises, as are many of the points in this thread. And although I could try to argue the point with logic, it would get me nowhere. Logic is not a part of religion. That's where "faith" comes in. Something doesn't have to be logical or empirical if you only have "faith" that it can be so.

If this discussion were more philosophical in nature I might participate more. But so far, what I see is people in conflict...nobody is trying to understand the other person's point of view but everybody is trying hard to convince the others of their own POV. I have no interest in trying to force my POV on anybody. Discussions of that nature will almost always end in stalemates, so why expend the energy?

It is entertaining reading however. :)

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The response you quoted was to the assumption that you may be the only one here that is accepting of others choices.

And no, you can hardly have a Logical conversation about religion since the basis of any religion is Faith and not what is Logical.

I would love to know why others believe what they do aside from just telling us that "That is what the book says and you believe it or you don't". That is the brainwashed answer and not an individuals choice and belief.

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

Hyfi, do you have kids? You can't correct them and love them at the same time? If you say yes, then what is so difficult about a superior being such as God being able to do the same and have righteous judgment?

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Hyfi, do you have kids? You can't correct them and love them at the same time? If you say yes, then what is so difficult about a superior being such as God being able to do the same and have righteous judgment?

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Because if he is a parent he actually exists. No faith needed. I see in so many peoples' description of god the pettiness of human nature and not the nature of a god that existed before man created him.

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Because if he is a parent he actually exists. No faith needed. I see in so many peoples' description of god the pettiness of human nature and not the nature of a god that existed before man created him.

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Imagine a being that is all-knowing and all-powerful. A being that created EVERYTHING... Now try and imagine what his/her/its thought process/personality must be like...

Cant? Neither can I...

I wouldn't expect God to be understood by any of us and it's why I have scant regard for any attempts to explain God and why the world is the way it is and what the purpose of life is, by any religion...

I have no problem believing in a much greater being than myself... But religion assigns way too much human emotion to a completely alien entity, that is well beyond our understanding... The Old Testament God reminds me of the opening narration for the old Hercules TV series "In a time when the ancient Gods were petty and cruel and plagued mankind with suffering"... The New Testament God is given a human face and loaded with love and compassion and somehow is constantly weeping that the world (God and God alone created) is so full of wickedness...

I regard religion as the study of God, but IMO none of the theories proposed make much sense... and the idea of blind faith maybe comforting for many, but it is not for me...

Well since this thread has turned to the nature of God let me add this little nugget.....

A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

- Stephen Crane

:D

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Hyfi, do you have kids? You can't correct them and love them at the same time? If you say yes, then what is so difficult about a superior being such as God being able to do the same and have righteous judgment?

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No, but my parents never told me I would go to Hell every time I was bad. They explained why it was wrong, and the right thing to do. They NEVER judged me, they guided and nurtured me.

Funny thing though, the one thing that still comes into my mind now and then is something my mom said when I was young. "If you have to think what would my mother say about this" then I probably shouldn't be doing it. Great words of wisdom, and not threats, fear, judgment, or any of the other things that come with organized religious beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. You can help create the outcomes of certain situations with the power of mind and thought, until someone elses will gets in your way.

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I don't really know what I chalk things up to. I know that I don't believe that some unseen, unknown spiritual force created the world. I suppose it was something scientific. But I don't really feel the need to know. Someday there may be conclusive evidence or maybe not. I'm okay either way. There are lots of things in the universe that I don't understand. Hell, at one time everyone thought that the world was flat, then one day that was proven false and the world was round. Scientists discover new things everyday. Nothing irks me more than a religious person answering an unknown with the statement, "it is gods will" or "god's plan". That's just a copout IMO. It's okay to say you don't know or understand something.

As for creating the outcomes of certain situations, I believe that people make thier own choices and those choices form the outcome of their lives. Nothing is truer to me than the Rush lyric, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". I can take any event in my life and provide the string of decisions that I made that led me to that event. In some cases the decisions were entirely mine (breaking up with a boyfriend to date my future husband) and in some cases the decisions were intertwined with other peoples decisions (my boss's decision to offer me a job, my decision to accept). Every movement that you make is a choice and you, and only you, control those decisions.

That is my philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

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I would also like to know how people like yourself chalk the whole thing up to mere chance. (if that is how you see it. One does not have to believe in the Main Stream God to accept that there are some pretty strong spiritual forces at work all the time. ....

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Like FA, I guess, I don't believe in the necessity of "spiritual forces" to exlain the universe and evolution.

Some say that the complex universe couldn't have come from nothing but needed "intelligent designer" (i.e. god, mainstream or otherwise). The standard, reductionist response to this is, where did the intelligent designer come from?

The other thing to consider is that evolution of species is not a matter of "mere chance". Chance has a role to play, but evolution causes chance changes that work to survive and those that don't to perish -- evolution isn't chance, it's a process. (In this regard, read Richard Dawkin's argument in The God Delusion.)

I have a question for those here who are religious. And I ask this seriously, with an attempt to understand, there is no intent of maliciousness or facetiousness.

I'm watching the CNN coverage of the tornado in Missouri. They are talking to a man whose home was flattened. He and his family were in the basement and he said that they were down there praying. Totally understandable to me. They showed a photo of his destroyed home on the news and the newscaster said, "we're looking at a picture of your home now and there is nothing left. How is it that your family survived and you all got out of your home safely?" He responded that "it was by the grace of God. We were praying the entire time and our prayers were answered".

I get all of that. My question is, how do you then explain those who died? Why were his prayers answered but other's weren't? If it's God's will, why was this family favoured while others perished? This is a part of religious belief that I have never understood, although I've tried.

I'm not criticizing. I'm not questioning or belittling his belief. I'm just curious how people who believe that they are alive because their prayers were answered justify the deaths of others.

Good question FA.

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.

So the people who lived while praying were lucky and the answer was an unusual YES. All others who died must not have been the good people they thought they were. Maybe they didn't give the required 10% before feeding themselves.

I was in a church in Arkansas a few years back that was pretty cool just up to the time when the guy went into his Tithing tirade. Did you know that if you don't give the first 10% of your paycheck to the church, you are Stealing From God. My wife and I almost got escorted out when we busted out loud with a laugh. If looks could kill, we would have been dead.

Along with your question, I always find it funny how sports players and teams go out to the court or field with a prayer. Why would God favor one player or team over the other and make one win and the other lose?

I ask this same question when I see signs such as God Bless America in times of war. Is god really going to help the US kill other peoples and win Wars? I don't think so.

I secretly want to go out in the middle of the nigh and change all these signs to God Bless the World, which would be more realistic....maybe.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I always go by this, God answers all your prayers. The answer is usually NO.

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Here's my thought on this:

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing, hence has a divine plan (as so many religious people claim) then why would he change his plan just because you or I don't like what's happening?

I believe the world is exactly as it is intended to be...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Here's my thought on this:

If God exists and is all-powerful and all-knowing, hence has a divine plan (as so many religious people claim) then why would he change his plan just because you or I don't like what's happening?

I believe the world is exactly as it is intended to be...

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That is why everything happens for a reason, we may just not see it.