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  1. #226
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    It's too funny since that recent post looks no different than what happened here back in 1995.
    AR was around back then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    We should all go over there and mess with him for some fun even though it will turn out just the same.
    haha yeah it'd be the AR boys vs. audioholics

    Gotta admit, his 'Audioholics Overlord' user title is pretty pathetic

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    AR was around back then?
    Yeah, I spent close to 2 years only on the cable board before branching out to Rave Recs where I met so many great people and was introduced to music I would have never heard.

    They made some changes at one point and made us all register again making it look like we have not been here as long.

  3. #228
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    It's hard to think about the performance of such expensive speaker cable !!!! I hope I can have chance to hear about that. :P
    Enjoy Music, Enjoy Life !!!

  4. #229
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    AR was around back then?

    haha yeah it'd be the AR boys vs. audioholics

    Gotta admit, his 'Audioholics Overlord' user title is pretty pathetic
    I joined audio review in 1995, and it was quite a battle ground back then.
    Sir Terrence

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  5. #230
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Absolutely. With video topics, you actually provide legitimate examples and compelling evidence that I truly appreciate. Your audio advice, on the other hand, is useless. Especially when you make inept, sweeping statements like you did in the last post which makes no sense.
    After spending more than a year(almost two) evaluating and listening to many different cables from many different manufacturers, I am in quite a good position to make sweeping generalizations. Can you say that? I don't think so


    As for me, I've only auditioned two particular Nordost cables at length in a known system (Valhalla and Odin) and own neither. Only a fool would take the time to burn in and evaluate fourteen different cables in their system - if that is truly what you did. Or should have done if you were seriously looking for high performance cabling. I would have thought you were smarter and valued your time more.

    rw
    Once again, you are filled with sweeping assumptions about what I have done, or didn't do. I was not the only person working on my studio project, there were at least 5 people working on it at all times. Secondly the cables were burned in, but not be me. They were installed in the evaluating system after they were properly burned in according to the manufacturers recommendations. Thirdly, I would not ever break out a cable, listen to it for a day, and think I have walked away with a enough time for a proper evaluation. It is supremely obvious you know nothing about me, or what I do in terms of audio. While you sit on your butt listening to audio, I am mixing and mastering it on a daily basis. I do not need a couch enthusiast to tell me anything about what I do daily thanks.

    When somebody is going to spend a considerable sum on something like cable, it IS smart to take the time to listen to as many cables as you can to get an idea of what optimum performance really is. Only an idiot would not do it before signing a wire transfer of funds I was going to do. I considered that time I spent as extremely valueable to me, because I learned that everything with a high price tag does not necessarily perform up the the expectations of the price tag. I also learned that everthing with a audiophile name brand on it does not necessarily outperform a non branded cable or interconnect. Lastly, it is MY time, not yours. How I choose to spend my time is my business, not yours. Only I can determine what is a waste of my time, not you.
    Sir Terrence

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  6. #231
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I am in quite a good position to make sweeping generalizations. Can you say that? I don't think so
    Yet another substance-free comment. Don't tell me, don't tell me - its none of our business!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    When somebody is going to spend a considerable sum on something like cable, it IS smart to take the time to listen to as many cables as you can to get an idea of what optimum performance really is.
    Agreed. Knock yourself out if you want to listen to fourteen different speaker cables from one manufacturer!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I also learned that everthing with a audiophile name brand on it does not necessarily outperform a non branded cable or interconnect.
    Certainly not. But you won't find a truly low DC cable from a spool of Belden, Carol, Gepco, etc.

    rw

  7. #232
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Yet another substance-free comment. Don't tell me, don't tell me - its none of our business!
    Not ours, yours


    Agreed. Knock yourself out if you want to listen to fourteen different speaker cables from one manufacturer!
    More assumptions. It was five different manufacturers, not one.



    Certainly not. But you won't find a truly low DC cable from a spool of Belden, Carol, Gepco, etc.

    rw
    You are and endless sea of assumptions.
    Sir Terrence

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  8. #233
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    More assumptions. It was five different manufacturers, not one.
    Let's see if we can figure out the source of your confusion. Here is an earlier comment of yours:

    "I have heard the entire line of Nordost speaker cable and interconnects both analog and digital when I was building my studio."

    So, how many different Nordost speaker cables are there in the entire line? Let's take a look here. Answer? Fourteen. So, there are two possibilities:

    1. You listened to fourteen different speaker cables from one manufacturer (in addition to whatever else you haven't stated). The first statement is correct and the second one is wrong.
    2. You actually listened to fourteen speaker cables from multiple manufacturers. The first statement is wrong and second statement is correct.

    Both statements cannot exist simultaneously. Which is it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You are and endless sea of assumptions.
    I really don't expect you to provide any substance to your detail-free commentary, but I'll try anyway. What "no-name" brand speaker cable has the lowest DC in your experience? And what is that value? Obviously, you have no idea and will prove that conclusively with your reply.

    rw

  9. #234
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    For anyone who is really interested in speaker wire performance, there are three metrics - inductance, capacitance and resistance which can characterize part of their performance envelope. While some engineers like Roger Russell only focus on resistance, smarter engineers understand that the other two also play significant roles with the interaction between an amplifier and the speaker's crossover network or transformer interface, especially inductance for most speakers and both for electrostats like mine. Several years ago, our resident nuclear scientist John Escallier (aka JNeutron) taught me there is a relationship between the two former metrics which is called Dielectric Constant. Here is where the formula can be found.

    A "perfect" cable would have a DC of 1. Let's compare a couple different cables and see where they fit:

    Belden 1311A, their best speaker cables part of the "Brilliance Broadcast" series. L=.15uH/ft, C=22.3 pF/ft, DC=3.23

    JPS Labs Superconductor + which is what I use. L= .06uH/ft , C=20 pF/ft, DC=1.16

    Nordost Tyr, one of their better cables. L=.11 uH/ft, C=11 pF/ft, DC=1.17

    Generic Zip cord, the old standard and presumed by some to be of the highest performance. L=.191 uH/ft, C=18 pF/ft, DC=3.32

    While I don't assert this is the only qualitative factor, there are differences in cable performance and certain aspects can be easily quantified when you understand what to look for. DC characterizes the degree to which the cable stores energy and smears the signal in the time domain. That is where you'll find differences in focus and loss of information.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 03-16-2010 at 07:02 PM.

  10. #235
    3LB
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    For anyone who is really interested in speaker wire performance, there are three metrics - inductance, capacitance and resistance which can characterize part of their performance envelope. While some engineers like Roger Russell only focus on resistance, smarter engineers understand that the other two also play significant roles with the interaction between an amplifier and the speaker's crossover network or transformer interface, especially inductance for most speakers and both for electrostats like mine. Several years ago, our resident nuclear scientist John Escallier (aka JNeutron) taught me there is a relationship between the two former metrics which is called Dielectric Constant. Here is where the formula can be found.

    A "perfect" cable would have a DC of 1. Let's compare a couple different cables and see where they fit:

    Belden 1311A, their best speaker cables part of the "Brilliance Broadcast" series. L=.15uH/ft, C=22.3 pF/ft, DC=3.23

    JPS Labs Superconductor + which is what I use. L= .06uH/ft , C=20 pF/ft, DC=1.16

    Nordost Tyr, one of their better cables. L=.11 uH/ft, C=11 pF/ft, DC=1.17

    Generic Zip cord, the old standard and presumed by some to be of the highest performance. L=.191 uH/ft, C=18 pF/ft, DC=3.32

    While I don't assert this is the only qualitative factor, there are differences in cable performance and certain aspects can be easily quantified when you understand what to look for. DC characterizes the degree to which the cable stores energy and smears the signal in the time domain. That is where you'll find differences in focus and loss of information.

    rw
    what about Cat5 cable?
    Repost this on your wall if you love Jesus.

  11. #236
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LB
    what about Cat5 cable?
    Good question. The datasheet for Belden 1583a does not list inductance. Chris VenHaus has a braided DIY design using CAT5 which trades low inductance for high capacitance like Goertz cable - which increases the DC. Such is relatively easy to do. The trick is keeping both values low simultaneously while still maintaining low R.

    rw

  12. #237
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Isn't the resistance just a function of the cable's gauge and length?

  13. #238
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Isn't the resistance just a function of the cable's gauge and length?
    Surface area counts, too. Solid core has less surface area than stranded.

    rw

  14. #239
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Surface area counts, too. Solid core has less surface area than stranded.

    rw
    Exacatacly, a small current will flow almost exclusively on the perimeter. As the current increases, this current flow with start to propagate inwards towards the center of the conductor.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  15. #240
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    So more surface area is better or worse?

  16. #241
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    So more surface area is better or worse?
    Yes! You've got it now.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Yes! You've got it now.
    Sorry?

  18. #243
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    So more surface area is better or worse?

    All things being equal, the wire with the most surface area would be a more efficient conductor. As with all things in physics there is a trade off, more surface area will also induce more sheath (eddy) currents produced by the varying magnetic field(s) of the signal.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  19. #244
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    So more surface area is better or worse?
    As LDB indicated, it would reduce resistance and is therefore desirable. It is almost as if you have a larger gauge wire. I've got some killer 6 gauge jumper cables that are stranded that do a far better job of transferring current than cheaper solid core models.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 03-17-2010 at 07:08 PM.

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    As LDB indicated, it would reduce resistance and is therefore desirable. It is almost as if you have a larger gauge wire. I've got some killer 6 gauge jumper cables that are stranded that do a far better job of transferring current than cheaper solid core models.

    rw
    I have trouble getting the large clamps to stay on my binding posts without shorting. So you're saying there should be another parameter we should consider, resistance, capacitance, inductance and CRANKING AMPS?

  21. #246
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    In theory then, and other things being equal, 11 awg stranded would work better for audio than 11 awg solid core?

  22. #247
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I have trouble getting the large clamps to stay on my binding posts ... CRANKING AMPS?
    LOL!

    rw

  23. #248
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    In theory then, and other things being equal, 11 awg stranded would work better for audio than 11 awg solid core?
    It would most surely have lower resistance and would therefore be desirable. Usually, however, all things are not equal with the other two metrics and the level of shielding. And few tests consider the amplifier, the speaker and the cable as being part of a system. Certainly not "It all sounds the same provided the resistance is low enough" Roger Russell.

    Solid core is more commonly found with the center conductor of an interconnect.

    rw

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