$35K for Speaker Cables!

[nightflier]

Abusive of who or what? The guy with $35K to spend on a hobby? If the MIT cables do indeed sound better than all other cables, so what? If they sound no better than a standard pair of Blue Jeans Cables, so what? Who or what is being abused by the $35K price tag? Neither you nor I are footing the bill...

Let the buyer decide, whether the increase in performance (real or imagined) is worth it to him/her...

There is another point to be made here: one has to wonder whether a $30K cable from another manufacturer, like Nordost for example, actually sounds worse at all. Maybe it even sounds better? My guess is that they probably sound exactly the same, measure just the slightest tinge different, and the only real difference is brand-name bragging rights. But the price difference is significant (it certainly would buy a lot of music or concert tix).

Yes, these MIT cables probably sound fantastic, but so does a $30K cable. Where is the difference?

[Ajani]

There is another point to be made here: one has to wonder whether a $30K cable from another manufacturer, like Nordost for example, actually sounds worse at all. Maybe it even sounds better? My guess is that they probably sound exactly the same, measure just the slightest tinge different, and the only real difference is brand-name bragging rights. But the price difference is significant (it certainly would buy a lot of music or concert tix).

Yes, these MIT cables probably sound fantastic, but so does a $30K cable. Where is the difference?

While I see your point (as I don't drink the audiophile Kool-Aid), I still believe that it is up to the person who is deciding whether to spend $35K on a pair of cables, to determine if it is better than a $30K pair or even a $30 pair....

Price has little to do with anything in audio... Some products are expensive because they use expensive parts, others because of years or R&D costs (and limited production runs), some pay heavy import duties and taxes, others excessive profit margins... However, does anyone of those categories guarantee that a product will sound good? Nope, neither quality parts nor extensive R&D guarantees squat.. You might well prefer a product at the same price (with an excessive profit margin)....

But my point is that it is not for us to sit on the sidelines and judge MIT's cables... Since we have no idea what they sound like or are made of... Let the guy who wants to buy one make up his own mind...

[GMichael]

But my point is that it is not for us to sit on the sidelines and judge MIT's cables... Since we have no idea what they sound like or are made of... Let the guy who wants to buy one make up his own mind...

OK, but it's still fun to poke at them with a stick.

[nightflier]

Well I can't wait to read the Stereophile review on this one.

[emaidel]

What can possibly be worth $35K in a cable? We're not talking about a piece of Lamm gear here, we're talking about a cable! Even if they were made of solid platinum and the box dangling off of them had a full PCB with the most expensive parts, I still fail to see how that would amount to $35K. Someone please explain to me what kind of magic these cables can produce that a top-of-the-line cable from a more realistic manufacturer can produce. What is MIT doing that the other guys are not? Do these cables really sound better or just an ever so slight nudge different? Or is that margin of supposed superiority just snake-oil?

Amen to that, brother. $35K for speaker cables is one thing, and one thing only: ridiculous, conspicuous consumption for the super-wealthy. This is the type of item one would see on the USA network show, "Royal Pains," which does a splendid job illustrating the vacuuous, shallow mindset of the ultra-wealthy Hamptonites on Long Island's East End South Shore.

And here I am, wearing a lowly $4,000 Ebel watch that I actually thought was good.

[Ajani]

Amen to that, brother. $35K for speaker cables is one thing, and one thing only: ridiculous, conspicuous consumption for the super-wealthy. This is the type of item one would see on the USA network show, "Royal Pains," which does a splendid job illustrating the vacuuous, shallow mindset of the ultra-wealthy Hamptonites on Long Island's East End South Shore.

And here I am, wearing a lowly $4,000 Ebel watch that I actually thought was good.

So a $4K watch isn't ridiculous, conspicuous consumption? Does it tell time better than a $40 watch?

[emaidel]

So a $4K watch isn't ridiculous, conspicuous consumption? Does it tell time better than a $40 watch?

No, not really. It was a gift from my wife for my 50th birthday (15 years ago!) that still works perfectly. The crystal is made of an unusual material that, despite 24/7 use (including showering and swimming) has yet to develop a single scratch. And no gold "plating" has worn off, since the gold trim is all 18 kt. stuff.

I will be able to will this watch to my grandchildren.

[Ajani]

No, not really. It was a gift from my wife for my 50th birthday (15 years ago!) that still works perfectly. The crystal is made of an unusual material that, despite 24/7 use (including showering and swimming) has yet to develop a single scratch. And no gold "plating" has worn off, since the gold trim is all 18 kt. stuff.

I will be able to will this watch to my grandchildren.

I'm sure the $35K Cables are made of unusual material and can be willed to the owner's grandchildren as well...

At the end of the day, all of this HiFi (and jewelry, cars, etc) that we debate are just ridiculous, conspicuous consumption.... It's just a question of what each person determines to be 'ridiculous'... A $5K CD Player is OK to many audiophiles, but somehow a $50K one is ridiculous... Yet to an average person, a $50 DVD player will play CDs just fine, so a $5K CD Player is insane...

[poppachubby]

So a $4K watch isn't ridiculous, conspicuous consumption? Does it tell time better than a $40 watch?

The answer is most certainly, yes. Time pieces of that caliber are precision crafted and will most certainly keep time better than a wide range of cheaper watches. The watch I can understand. First it must be designed, then tooled, then assembled. All with utmost precision. The cables have the same process, although I don't see the precision being the same, but to the tune of $35K, c'mon...

I don't care about any liberal stuff concerning, "it's his money". It's overpriced and that's that.

[Ajani]

The answer is most certainly, yes. Time pieces of that caliber are precision crafted and will most certainly keep time better than a wide range of cheaper watches. The watch I can understand. First it must be designed, then tooled, then assembled. All with utmost precision. The cables have the same process, although I don't see the precision being the same, but to the tune of $35K, c'mon...

I don't care about any liberal stuff concerning, "it's his money". It's overpriced and that's that.

The point in bold is pure fantasy, as many persons who buy expensive watches know (some have learned the hard way), they often do not tell time better than a cheapo timex... Worse yet, considering that the watch is an obsolete invention as most persons check the time off their cellphone anyway...

So it is just a matter that you are paying for some pretty jewelry..

You can make it about liberal versus conservative or whatever, but the simple truth is that buying a pretty watch for an @$$load of cash is just as ridiculous as buying expensive HiFi... And laughing at one group while trying to defend the other really is also ridiculous..

Note: The right to spend your money as you please is a conservative view, not a liberal one....

[audio amateur]

You can make it about liberal versus conservative or whatever, but the simple truth is that buying a pretty watch for an @$$load of cash is just as ridiculous as buying expensive HiFi... And laughing at one group while trying to defend the other really is also ridiculous

That is not his point. A precision watch takes can take a heck of a time in man hours to assemble, not to mention the many critically machined parts (often made from dear materials) that are used in the assembly process. It doesn't take a genious to see that this isn't nearly the case in making a pair of interconnect cables. Because that is just what they are...

[Ajani]

That is not his point. A precision watch takes can take a heck of a time in man hours to assemble, not to mention the many critically machined parts that are used in the assembly process. It doesn't take a genious to see that this isn't nearly the case in making a pair of interconnect cables. Because that is just what they are...

So you quote one part of my response and claim that is not his point? Is that a joke?

Also, how do you know how many man hours were used to assemble the $35K Cables? Do you work at MIT? You are just on the sideline making assumptions...

Also, what does the labor hours have to do with whether the product tells time better?

If your attempt is to justify the price of the watch by cost of materials and labor hours, then there are many ultra-expensive HiFi products that can be justified based on that (maybe even the $35K cables can be justified based on materials and labor too - but that doesn't mean it sounds better than a cheaper cable)...

[audio amateur]

So you quote one part of my response and claim that is not his point? Is that a joke?

I am asserting his main point, which is not the precision of time keeping. Comparing digital to mechanical watches is essentially moot.

You are just on the sideline making assumptions...

Aren't we all at this point?

Also, what does the labor hours have to do with whether the product tells time better?

In theory, it should.

(maybe even the $35K cables can be justified based on materials and labor too - but that doesn't mean it sounds better than a cheaper cable)...

I agree.

[Ajani]

I am asserting his main point, which is not the precision of time keeping. Comparing digital to mechanical watches is essentially moot.

Aren't we all at this point?

In theory, it should.

I agree.

okkkkk....

So what exactly are the cables being condemned for? Is it performance or product cost?

If it's about performance (the claim that a $100 cable will sound the same or not much different), then the argument that a cheap digital watch (or better yet - the "free watch" in your cellphone) keeps time as well as a handcrafted work of art, from Switzerland, is applicable...

If it's about product cost (Materials, Labor, R&D, etc..), then truth is that none of us knows that as we neither work at MIT, nor have a pair of $35K Cables to dissect and inspect the materials.... So claiming that the product is ripoff based on product cost is ridiculous as there is no basis for estimating the cost...

I still fail to see why people accept that expensive handcrafted jewelry is worth loads of money, but expensive HiFi is not...

[GMichael]

okkkkk....

So what exactly are the cables being condemned for? Is it performance or product cost?

If it's about performance (the claim that a $100 cable will sound the same or not much different), then the argument that a cheap digital watch (or better yet - the "free watch" in your cellphone) keeps time as well as a handcrafted work of art, from Switzerland, is applicable...

If it's about product cost (Materials, Labor, R&D, etc..), then truth is that none of us knows that as we neither work at MIT, nor have a pair of $35K Cables to dissect and inspect the materials.... So claiming that the product is ripoff based on product cost is ridiculous as there is no basis for estimating the cost...

I still fail to see why people accept that expensive handcrafted jewelry is worth loads of money, but expensive HiFi is not...

It's the Average Joe view.

Mr. Average sees a $5k watch and can say, "Wow! That's fickin' nice. $5k huh? Seems a little high, but I bet it's worth it." (Same for high prices cars, homes etc...)
Then Mr. Average Joe sees $35k speaker wires and says. "WTF would get anyone in their right mind to spend that much on wire? It's just frikin' wire."

Write or wrong, that's the view that most people have.

[audio amateur]

Write or wrong, that's the view that most people have.

Even I would say that! And it's not like this isn't one of my hobbies.

[Ajani]

It's the Average Joe view.

Mr. Average sees a $5k watch and can say, "Wow! That's fickin' nice. $5k huh? Seems a little high, but I bet it's worth it." (Same for high prices cars, homes etc...)
Then Mr. Average Joe sees $35k speaker wires and says. "WTF would get anyone in their right mind to spend that much on wire? It's just frikin' wire."

Write or wrong, that's the view that most people have.

Clearly, that must be it.... All this reminds me of my ex-wife; she'd happily surprise me with a $1000 watch for my birthday, but would start a war if I suggested spending $1000 on an amp...

While I respect someone's right to buy a $5K watch, I just don't see any value in it personally, as I always check the time on my cellphone (even when I have on a watch - as jewelry)...

I think the issue is that luxury HiFi has gone out of style with the "Average Joe"... The Average Joe looks at you with envy if you drive a Mercedes or wear a Rolex, but laughs at you for owning a Krell or Conrad Johnson....

[Ajani]

Even I would say that! And it's not like this isn't one of my hobbies.

Yes, but (if I'm not mistaken) like many of us; you grew up essentially an Average Joe and developed an interest in HiFi... so you accept what most people see as 'value' and question HiFi more critically...

I strongly suspect that if owning a luxury watch wasn't a status symbol, then most people would say WTF??? when they saw a $5K watch for sale.... HiFi has no such allure to the masses and thus gets dissed for being so expensive...

[GMichael]

I think a large part of it is that wire is such a passive component. If you take a look at a set of speakers from say Legacy, you can see that you are getting a lot. The price may still seem high, but at least you are getting lots of drivers and very nice wood work. It may be a little harder for some of us to see a $10k set of bookshelf speakers and think they are worth it though. That takes first hand listening time.
But wire? It just lays there. All it does in conduct electrons to and fro. It's not that hard. There are no moving components like a speaker (or a watch, or car...).

Can $35k speaker wire be worth it? Maybe. But it's a little like saying that I have a $500 toothpick. Why the heck would something so simple cost so much? A $5k watch? Not for me. (I don't even have the cheapo watches) But with all those moving parts and fancy gizmos? Well...???

[poppachubby]

I still fail to see why people accept that expensive handcrafted jewelry is worth loads of money, but expensive HiFi is not...

We are discussing a watch, not jewelry in general. I think it is YOU who are assuming things. That a Patek or similar class is not a precision timepiece? You are sounding foolish now, and most certainly making assumptions.

Just look at the composition of a watch. Now look at the composition of a set of cables. Can you agree there's a world of difference? The cables aren't even in the shadow of a fine time piece. I am a machinist, I can assert these things WITHOUT the use of assumption.

Now I will drive my awesome Lamborghini with my bling, bling Patek and skillfully run over that $35K IC jerk, while Britney Spears' head is in my lap...

[Ajani]

We are discussing a watch, not jewelry in general. I think it is YOU who are assuming things. That a Patek or similar class is not a precision timepiece? You are sounding foolish now, and most certainly making assumptions.

Just look at the composition of a watch. Now look at the composition of a set of cables. Can you agree there's a world of difference? The cables aren't even in the shadow of a fine time piece. I am a machinist, I can assert these things WITHOUT the use of assumption.

Now I will drive my awesome Lamborghini with my bling, bling Patek and skillfully run over that $35K IC jerk, while Britney Spears' head is in my lap...

Am I suppose to respond to something in that post? All I see is that you have fantasies about driving a Lamborghini while either having a severed head in your lap or getting sexual satisfaction from some Celebrity...

My points are clear... and there is no point repeating them to you... But enjoy your Britney Spears sex fantasy and your precision timepiece!

[Ajani]

I think a large part of it is that wire is such a passive component. If you take a look at a set of speakers from say Legacy, you can see that you are getting a lot. The price may still seem high, but at least you are getting lots of drivers and very nice wood work. It may be a little harder for some of us to see a $10k set of bookshelf speakers and think they are worth it though. That takes first hand listening time.
But wire? It just lays there. All it does in conduct electrons to and fro. It's not that hard. There are no moving components like a speaker (or a watch, or car...).

Can $35k speaker wire be worth it? Maybe. But it's a little like saying that I have a $500 toothpick. Why the heck would something so simple cost so much? A $5k watch? Not for me. (I don't even have the cheapo watches) But with all those moving parts and fancy gizmos? Well...???

Problem with the argument of how simple its function is, is that the last thread I saw that complained about overpriced HiFi was about the Musical Fidelity Titan; a $30K Power Amp... And people were complaining just as much about the price of the amp in that thread, as persons in this thread are about cables...

The issue is people have little regard for HiFi in general... But other bling bling in the form of expensive cars, jewelry (including "precision timepieces"), clothes and houses are considered to be worth it somehow....

[nightflier]

Well then let's discuss the construction of those cables. I really want to know from some of you who know more about this, what can possibly cost $35K in a cable. Some of you have worked in manufacture, are engineers, and have years more experience than I have in audio. Certainly someone can better explain what is going on here.

Basically, I don't agree that we can't know what went into them because we don't work at MIT. It's just a cable with some box hanging off of them. Don't many other manufacturers have a similar configuration? I believe Mapleshade assisted in the construction of the Omega Mikro Planar Analog Ebony. At a cool $2900, it's not chump change, but I've read that it is very well engineered, years of research went into them, and the company claims it will compete with MIT's best. So I ask, if a small outfit can design, manufacture, and distribute it for $2.8K, why can't a big company like MIT, with its vast resources and years of research, not do it for a smidgen less than $35K? Why not for a more respectable $5K? Is it simply that they already have a $5K cable?

[Ajani]

Well then let's discuss the construction of those cables. I really want to know from some of you who know more about this, what can possibly cost $35K in a cable. Some of you have worked in manufacture, are engineers, and have years more experience than I have in audio. Certainly someone can better explain what is going on here.

Basically, I don't agree that we can't know what went into them because we don't work at MIT. It's just a cable with some box hanging off of them. Don't many other manufacturers have a similar configuration? I believe Mapleshade assisted in the construction of the Omega Mikro Planar Analog Ebony. At a cool $2900, it's not chump change, but I've read that it is very well engineered, years of research went into them, and the company claims it will compete with MIT's best. So I ask, if a small outfit can design, manufacture, and distribute it for $2.8K, why can't a big company like MIT, with its vast resources and years of research, not do it for a smidgen less than $35K? Why not for a more respectable $5K? Is it simply that they already have a $5K cable?

Now we're getting somewhere interesting: asking exactly what is in the box and how much R&D was done to warrant the $35K price tag is something that a potential buyer should ask (assuming he cares)...

However we still have some issues:

When you ask "Don't many other manufacturers have a similar configuration?".... the answer is 'yes' assuming that by similar configuration you mean "just a cable with some box hanging off of them"... A Hyundai is just a pile of metal with some rubber tires, as is a Bentley, so they could be deemed to be the same configuration as well...

Here's the real answer of what's in the box according to MIT

FAQs about MIT Interfaces
What's in the box? For over 20 years Bruce Brisson has been researching precisely what the function of a cable is. Simply put, a cable's job is to deliver the signal with frequency, amplitude and phase intact with no distortions of these critical relationships. After years of experimentation and receiving patents on sophisticated cable geometries, he concluded that only after applying network technology would he be able to accomplish that goal.

Inside the box is a series of complex networks comprised of passive components aimed at improving the cable's linearity. The result is easily heard as better bass, improved imaging and focus and more open highs.

Is it a crossover? No. The networks are designed to store and release current and voltage in proper relationships, but do not function as a filter. The cable networks are wired in parallel and do not impair any signal flow; thus, your components are directly connected with high quality materials.

Useful, right?

But let me ask you this: if MIT cracked open the box and justified the cost to you (including a reasonable profit margin), would you consider it to be any less 'ridiculous' an expenditure?

I actually had a similar debate on value with two writers from The Absolute Sound on their website, and they made it clear that they judge value based on "show me better (or presumably the same) for less" and not based on materials cost... So as long as nothing sounds better or the same as the MIT for less, then they consider it good value for money (regardless of how much it cost in materials and R&D).... Their argument being that they are all about sound quality and that the free market is what will prevent manufacturers from achieving ridiculous profit margins... Since any competitor can decide to produce a better cable than MIT for less and take MIT's customers (assuming MIT is making ridiculous profit margins)... That is how brands like Emotiva, Axiom, Oppo, Odyssey Audio, etc operate, isn't it? They believe they can make better products for less and clearly many consumers agree with them...

[audio amateur]

Clearly, it ain't the parts then. You're merely contributing to a fund towards his overdue 20 year research salary