• 04-14-2005, 10:47 AM
    kexodusc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    I generally take selected issues when I respond to posts so that I do not bugged down in trivia, apologies if you felt I took words too literally.

    Convenient
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    In this case, the whole tone of your post was comtemptuous of those who spend a lot of money

    Contempt? As in disdain, dislike, hatred? You're way off...Don't know what else I can say. If I said you were in left field, I'd be too generous. Here's an invitation for you to put me in my place once and for all, as I grow weary of your miscontruing my statements, whether deliberate or accidental...Are you ready, here goes:

    Find me one example where I demonstrate anything remotely close to contempt to people who "spend alot of money" -- (fyi: I spend a lot of money).
    If you cannot, kindly apologize.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this medium (ie: web forum) doesn't capture the "tone" I would otherwise be portraying.

    I'm afraid you have it ass backwards. There are two occurances of "contempt" here:
    1) The "holier than thou attitude" of some, lumping those without gear of an as yet to be disclosed monetary value as having "the lack of knowledge and envy for people with high pricetag systems"
    2) My contempt for such statements.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    There is correlation between price and performance, however the law of diminishing returns applies more forcefully as you climb the ladder, and in this respect audio is not different from many other items. To put it to you pointedly that median value of USD2K is simply a line drawn in the sand. As I maintain that a USD20K put together with requisite expertise will absolutely sound superior to a USD2K system within reason. Whether you feel the improvements worth the extra 18K is another matter entirely, showing contempt (pity, looking down etc) to those that think the improvements is worth the extra money in unacceptable and stinking thinking.

    I'm afraid you continue to repeat yourself over and over again, but you still aren't making sense...let me hold your hand and walk you through this one -
    Let's assume we poll 100 people, asking which of the two systems they prefer (performance-wise), the 100K or the 20K...even if it is 90/10 in favor of the 100K system, the truth remains that subjectivity exists, and the 100K system is not universally "better" than the 20K system. There's just too much personal tastes to make such a statement.
    Let's use another extreme example...I'm fairly confident a 100K, but properly matching Bose system won't outperform a 20K Magnepan system.

    Oddly enough, you admit the diminishing returns, yet you fail to admit the possibility that beyond 20K, the returns are so small, so incremental that, that added benefit of a more expensive system isn't always enough to create a clear winner 100% of the time.
    I would argue that the 80K pricetag difference might really only contribute a mere fraction of a percentage in terms of performance benefits, which may or may not make it "better" to the audience.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    I did not say anybody who can afford more than USD1K system is more enlighted,

    I did not accuse you of this...I was referring to the man you appear to be defending when he stated such condescending things as "the lack of knowledge and envy for people with high pricetag systems" and his use of a new paradigm "hifi vs. hi-end" (a statement which you also appeared to at least have some issue with) - after appearing to gloat about the cost of his system.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    I said that they can increase their enjoyment of the music they like, improved sound quality if it matters to them, by investing more money in their audio reproduction equipment and better quality software where available.

    On this I don't disagree, they can do whatever they wish to increase their enjoyment...provided they are careful, if not at least polite, when quantifying how superior their systems are in terms of performance to those of others.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Only to replace it with a "holier than thou" attitude of your own.

    If my taking issue with the arrogance of others comes off as "holier than thou"...so be it.
    Respectfully, I think if you read my posts again, you'll change your mind.
  • 04-14-2005, 11:18 AM
    theaudiohobby
    I have said my piece
    kexodusc,

    I have said my piece and since I will rather not respond to your posts in full my previous post will suffice. In my previous posts, I write "all things being equal" i.e. comparing like for like, so when I read your Bose v Magnepan comments, it's big laugh. My last two posts remain as is, when the dust has settled reread your posts and mine, the issues I have against your responses are valid. Yes, Florian is showing off but so are you. Try not to feel pity for those who choose to spend a lot more than your median value on audio equipment, respect their choices, it is a twisted attitude when you don't.
  • 04-14-2005, 11:21 AM
    Florian
    How am i showing off? By owning a system of a high pricetag?

    -Flo
  • 04-14-2005, 11:23 AM
    theaudiohobby
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    Well this is the end of this discussion. I could enjoy a 500$ system, but why should I ? I have a 20K system and yes it will beat the crap out of any 2K system in regards to Transparency, Dynamics, Bass extionsion, holographic imaging, precision, life like sound etc...

    I one of the few that always support beginners and pictures in the gallery where the equiment is 500$. I have startet with a 45$ system.
    I can live with the fact that there are systems below 1K and i can live with the fact that there are 100K systems.

    And if you cant differentiate a 1K system to a 20K system, than thats good for you since you dont need to spend any more money.

    -Flo

    I see Florian, you just had to tell that the total MSRP value of your new setup is close to 20K, congrats on your charity work :D :rolleyes: .

    Enjoy your new setup, but try to use less broad brushes in the future.;)
  • 04-14-2005, 11:26 AM
    Florian
    Ok i see your point. But everyone can calculate that based on the signatures and profiles :p
  • 04-14-2005, 11:28 AM
    theaudiohobby
    Deleted in light on Flo's last response.
  • 04-14-2005, 11:29 AM
    Florian
    Thats not true, i was simply stating that i do not need a 20K system in order to enjoy the music. I would be happy with a 500$ system too, but i have had the oppertunity to buy such a expensive system, so i did.

    -Flo
  • 04-14-2005, 11:37 AM
    theaudiohobby
    I wouldn't
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    Thats not true, i was simply stating that i do not need a 20K system in order to enjoy the music. I would be happy with a 500$ system too, but i have had the oppertunity to buy such a expensive system, so i did.

    -Flo

    Would I be happy listening on a USD500 rig, when I could get much better for not much more relatively speaking? I don't think so. Do I need a 20K system to enjoy music? No, but I certainly want something more than USD500. The satellite radio and TDK S80 speakers have their place.
  • 04-14-2005, 11:40 AM
    Florian
    See thats what i mean. I have no issues with lower priced setups, but i had the money to buy the expensive system so why shouldn''t i? Ofcourse its a huge amount of money, and i dont really need it. But i would sure miss it if i were to buy lower end equipment. Why should i suffer attacks, just because of the high prices?

    -Flo
  • 04-14-2005, 11:47 AM
    theaudiohobby
    *** Why should i suffer attacks, just because of the high prices? ***

    You shouldn't if you couch the information more tactfully ;) :D , I like some of the pieces in your system and know their prices, some I probably do not care for, but hey it is your system, you probably do not care for my choices either. :D
  • 04-14-2005, 12:36 PM
    theaudiohobby
    Kexodusc, for your records
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Find me one example where I demonstrate anything remotely close to contempt to people who "spend alot of money" -- (fyi: I spend a lot of money).
    If you cannot, kindly apologize.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    If there's nothing else you'd rather spend that last 40 K on when you already have a 20K system, then I think you need to get out and see the world a bit more. There's a point where I return to the lowly "mainstream" and just don't "get it" I guess...20K is probably close to it...and I'm proud to admit this. Yup, pity is the right word...to some, being able to do more with more is admirable, but me, I prefer to do more with less..

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I don't presume to prevent people from spending 100K on a system - it's their money and their business...but I maintain that these people, whether they admit it or not, are satisfying more than just a desire for accurate musical playback, at whatever levels those may be. There's an intangible feel-good attribute that comes with owning prestigious gear. There's a point where these items do become, in part, "trailer-queens". I'll admit to being guilty of this in other hobbies in my life, but I won't deny it. Materialism at it's worst. At some point, perhaps not 20 K, more than just sound influences the decision to buy...

    Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as an expression of contempt, as in condescending.

    [DELETED]Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as a polite expression of contempt as in condescending and disdain.[DELETED]
  • 04-14-2005, 02:45 PM
    kexodusc
    Are you for real, or are you just trolling?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Here are examples for your records, "Pity" is being used here as a polite expression of contempt, as in condescending and disdain.

    You've done an excellent job of misconstruing most of my posts...why stop now? :rolleyes:

    "Polite expression of contempt"...as opposed to the traditional "mean expression of contempt"?
    That's the best you could come up with? I figured as much. How long did it take you to come up with this arbitrary (and inaccurate) definition of "pity" as it's used?

    Those phrases quite simply express my belief that these people are over-indulging...that's not spiteful, there's no contempt, merely a minor disagreement. I can't believe I even had to type this for you...
  • 04-14-2005, 03:42 PM
    Geoffcin
    This whole thread was/is a troll
    No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.
  • 04-14-2005, 05:30 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    Give me a break. :rolleyes:
    My statment was true, because you are the first i ever encountered that claims such characteristics from an Apogee speaker. I dont know anyone who ever said the same thing. No review ever mentioned anything like the characteristics you mentioned.

    Again, more BS. How could your statements possibly be true? Here are your exact quotes.

    "You are the first person to describe the Apogee's in that way that, ever."

    "Every single person that has heard the Scintilla or owned one that you can read about state that it is closest to the real thing that is possible"

    Like I said, does that mean that you've polled every single person who's ever heard the Apogees or Scintillas? Unless you've done so and can confirm 100% of the pool agreeing with you, then these blanket statements are nothing but a pack of false exaggerations. And as I've already mentioned, I personally know three people who've listened to Apogees in different settings, and had similar reactions that I did -- i.e. nice speaker in certain facets, but not worthy of all the hype.

    Keep in mind that I was listening to the Apogees when you were in diapers, so I can put "overrated" in the proper context of how persistently they got hyped when they first came out.

    Nice to see though that you've conveniently backtracked from your earlier statements, so apology accepted.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I could seriously care less if you believe what i said or not.

    If not, then why persist in making these kinds of ridiculous presumptions about my mindset and motivations?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    But placing Apogee, Wilson etc.. among the most overrated speakers thread shows the lack of knowledge and envy for people with high pricetag systems in my opinion.

    LOL! Nice to know that I'm now a jealous and clueless person in your eyes. You're just throwing out yet another example of the presumption that I'd mentioned earlier. The fact that you persist in using that line of reasoning indicates to me that it hasn't quite sunk in yet. Oh well, miracles can happen.

    If someone wants to throw out the big bucks on Apogee or Wilson systems, then I have no problem with that whatsoever. Logically speaking here, why would I envy anyone who wants to pay that much for a set of speakers when they don't fit my preferences to begin with? Taken in that context, your point makes no sense whatsoever.

    And let me just clue you in one last time. I regard the Apogees and Wilsons as overrated precisely because of the persistent acclaim that they receive. I personally feel that it's misplaced based on my listenings. Has nothing to do with the pricetag because there are plenty of similarly high priced and acclaimed speakers that I don't regard as overrated. So, your petty presumptions about me don't serve you well in this case either.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I always read from you that a 2K system can sound better than one for 20K, well what if the 20K system was just as nicely matched as the 2K system ....than you would realize the difference between HIFI and High End.

    -Flo

    You "always" read from me that a $2k system can sound better than a $20k system? Why don't you cite some examples that demonstrate how frequently I make that point. It's yet another blanket statement that has little bearing to the point at hand, and little in the way of truth behind it.

    I didn't know that price correlated to sound quality so exactly. Are you saying that everything in that upper price strata will sound better than a $2k system?
  • 04-14-2005, 11:01 PM
    Florian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.

    I call it quits.
  • 04-14-2005, 11:41 PM
    theaudiohobby
    ditto
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    I call it quits.

    ditto
  • 04-15-2005, 05:52 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    No matter what gets posted under this header it's likely to offend someone. I think it's time to voluntarily call it quits before things get so heated that we have another unfortunate thread closing.

    Gee, it got a bit warm in here, didn't it? :)

    rw
  • 04-15-2005, 10:59 AM
    JoeE SP9
    I still want to know where you can get new Apogee's
  • 04-15-2005, 11:01 AM
    Florian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    I still want to know where you can get new Apogee's

    Well you cant get "NEW" Apogee's. But you can get better than new ones. Just buy a used pair on Audiogon.com or ebay.com etc.. and buy new TLC ribbons from Gratz in Australia. Just PM me, and ill tell ya all about it.

    Mind you that a fully, better then new Apogee Scintilla (if you want to go that high) will run you about 8K US once your done.

    -Flo

    PS: But there are some used Caliper, Duettas out there.
  • 04-15-2005, 11:19 PM
    JoeE SP9
    Please excuse me Florian. I was just messing with you. I am aware of the replacement ribbons. I don't think that ribbon replacement makes it a new speaker. I have heard almost everything Apogee made including a pair of Concert Grands. I almost bought a pair of Mini Grands at Soundex a couple of years ago. I didn't bite because I'm really quite happy with what I have. After all I do have 4 timbre matched speakers. Also, my tube amps are totally insufficient for driving Apogees.
  • 04-16-2005, 02:01 AM
    theaudiohobby
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Please excuse me Florian. I was just messing with you. I am aware of the replacement ribbons. I don't think that ribbon replacement makes it a new speaker. I have heard almost everything Apogee made including a pair of Concert Grands. I almost bought a pair of Mini Grands at Soundex a couple of years ago. I didn't bite because I'm really quite happy with what I have. After all I do have 4 timbre matched speakers. Also, my tube amps are totally insufficient for driving Apogees.

    http://www.analysisaudio.com/Om.jpg
    The analysisaudio line of loudspeakers are very interesting and according to the manufacturers relatively easy to drive.