Von Sweikert VR2 vs. VR4 jr

[Woochifer]

I dont want to take this thread the wrong way. But i am right, he has no clue about panel speakers. Its my opinion and compared to him i had several planar systems personally and have one of the best planars ever made. I know what they can do and what they cant do, and what he says is falls. I have nothing against him, he just doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. He quotes some garbage and then writes about his dealer experience. That aint no help at all.

-Flo

And this type of statement where you try to discredit another member's qualifications to make an OPINION is exactly the kind of inflammatory language that takes threads the wrong way. If he's writing about what he has personally heard with panel speakers, then how is that wrong or clueless? If you want to praise the virtues of planar speakers, knock yourself out. But, you do your own credibility a major disservice whenever you focus so much energy trying to discredit another member's opinions and take on the condescending and self-righteous tone that you do. Like I keep saying -- different rooms, different preferences, different ears.

[Florian]

Well why does he have the right to bang on planars everytime they are mentioned? I dont wanna argue, its pointless with him. He just writes and quotes 10 pages from some site he finds on google.

-Flo

[46minaudio]

Well why does he have the right to bang on planars everytime they are mentioned?

-Flo

Why do you have the right to bang on box speakers.?Often I do not agree with rga but this is a disscussion forum.

[Woochifer]

Well why does he have the right to bang on planars everytime they are mentioned? I dont wanna argue, its pointless with him. He just writes and quotes 10 pages from some site he finds on google.

-Flo

Just as you have the right to bang on box speakers, and often exercise that right. The issue on this thread is that you've made RGA the issue, rather than the merits of the topic at hand. If you think he's wrong, then debate the points. Trying to tell people to ignore what he says or telling us that he "has no clue" is a copout approach, and more personal than substantive.

[Florian]

Nevermind....RGA you have a PM

[Geoffcin]

Nevermind....RGA you have a PM

Please feel free to "Have at it" over there

[RGA]

It's so far off the original topic that anyone wanting to follow the thread would be totally confused. If you guys want to open a topic in the "Steel Cage" forum and go at it then I'm all for that. Anymore off topic banter, and I mean ANYTHING that doesn't have to do with this specific thread (please read the topic line at the top if your unsure as to what it was) is ABSOLUTELY not welcome.

Sorry I was typing my post and submitted it then read this. I will not make a further point to this as I feel I've repeated myself a little as it is.

Sorry Jim.

[Geoffcin]

Sorry I was typing my post and submitted it then read this. I will not make a further point to this as I feel I've repeated myself a little as it is.

Sorry Jim.

You have a discussion to make with Florian, and it's one that you have a right to have, only not here. Please go to the new topic in the Steel Cage and continue.

[Jim Clark]

After careful deliberation and few more auditions I've taken the unusual step of ordering a speaker I've never even listened to. The VS VR2's were better than what I have in just about every regard. My hesitation was limited to-how much better? Without question they were 1,200 better(the going rate at Audiogon) but not positive about 2,495 (new price through the dealer). To be honest I have a bit of a problem going to a dealer for a demo and then buying elsewhere for less. To me that's somewhat dishonest although it wasn't my intention going into the store. If he'd have had the Dynaudio product I was looking for I'm pretty sure I'd have a set of those in my home now.

After reading all of the reviews for the VR 4jr's, I feel reasonably confident that for 2,500 (used price) these will be enough of an improvement to justify the price and since I didn't listen to them at the dealer my conscience is clear. The clincher is that the "owner" never even took possesion of this set of speakers and they remain at the authorized dealer who has basically agreed to broker the deal. Seems the seller decided at the last minute to go for some Vandersteen Quatro's instead. These speakers have been played less than 10 hours and as far as I'm concerned they are new and I'll be getting the full 10 year warranty. An unexpected plus is that since the dealer is involved he is using his contacts and experience to ship these out and I'm confident the deal will progress without any unforseen stumbles. Having never heard them I'm can't say with certainty that I'm making a wise move but the reviews and owner comments have set my expectations high and I'm very excited to be moving forward with this set of speakers but only time will tell how smart a move it was.

Along the way I've come to several random conclusions, some of which I'll post in an equally random way:

-we don't all hear the same thing even though we are listening to the same thing. If we did then B&W would never sell a single speaker as far as I'm concerned.

-Dali makes the most beautiful cabinets I've ever seen in a speaker

-I would have liked to at least listen to an Audio Note speaker. Sadly none is closer than Denver and I'm not going to Denver to listen to a speaker. This is offset by the fact that having seen the pics, I can't imagine I'd pull the trigger on this brand. Looks, while a secondary consideration are still a consideration.

- While not limited to AN since I've seen ads touting the same for speakers in the Von Schweikert line, do that many people really believe that silver wire in the speaker makes an audible difference? What do these same people say about all of the copper being used before the signal gets to the speaker? This is the single biggest oddity I encountered.

-Did Florian really recomend a speaker by a company that has been out of business for 10 years? Enthusiasm for your fave is one thing but that seems to be pushing the limits of sanity. At any rate, I did at least look online and the width consideration alone immediately took it out of contention. Martin Logan is manufactured within 25 minutes of my home. It would have been cool to be able to fall in love with these the way he goes for the Apogee's, but it wasn't to be. The MG 3.6's had some admirable traits especially with several tracks on my Demo disc but when it came to what I actually listen to, my initial impression held. Besides, with both MMG and ML, the footprint almost immediately steered me away. I just can't use them but thanks for the encouragement to revisit them.

-I still would have really, really liked to listen to the Dynaudio Evidence line!

-Audiogon is your friend. I really hope I can find a used LCR 15 in African Hazelwood.

-Finally, it would appear that I need to learn how to biwire.

Regards,
jc

[RGA]

I can speak to the silver in your discussion because Audio Note makes thesame speaker with copper and other versions with silver and with different cabinet materials. I'm not a cable supporter by the way and so I can;t tell you if the diifferences are due to silver or a combination of the wiring and crossovers etc.

The Audio Note J K and E models with an L after it are copper wired and perform typically better than the silver models with solid state amps. At least those SS amps in my sessions but bigger AN fans than me have more experience and also come to this conclusion. The E copper version for example sounded quite excellent on the Rotel RA02 a budget amp. The K/Spe(silver wired) however sounded rather spitty in the upper midrange and would be rather "bright" to me. Switching to one of Audio Note's amps and the K/spe that problem completely dissapeared. The E/L(copper) though didn't imporved too but seemed to lack a little sparkle (we still need some).

Your point about silver throughout is one of the reasons I'm not a cable supporter. It makes little sense to have different wiring from cd player to amp to speaker. I can;t speak for Von Sweikert but Audio Note makes all their own cables. And they tune everything by ear. Their level system (which is really tough to "believe" unless you've heard them in action advises that if you buy a level two speaker you should have the amp or cd player not be more than one level off. So in the case of the J/Spe (my speakers) they use the lowest level of silver wiring(spe) and ideally they would like you to buy the SPE speaker cable as well as SPE interconnect and the Meishu silver wired amplifier and the upper DAC which is also Silver wired. In lieu of budget their top of the line copper litz is one level down and is close to the lower end silver.

Few companies build the whole chain -- one of the amps Von Sweikert uses to tune their speakers and to listen to is from Audio Note -- so It's not too suprising that Von Sweikert if they are using silver wiring would want to use amplifiers and sources with silver wiring. Unlike Audio note of course they have to build their speakers to be more accomodating of many different amplifiers. Audio Note's fault if you can call it that is that they build their speakers with their amplifiers and their cd players and cables in mind and they have little interest in how SS reacts because they think, in their opinion, that SS is rubbish. So hooking up the Rotel and getting good results was not something recommended it was something my dealer has done to try and find a way to get a relatively inexpensive AN E system. I had good luck with a Sugden with my speakers. But MF? Ughh terrible match. Bryston forgettaboutit.

I would like to see my dealer Soundhounds acquire both Von Sweikert and Spendor.

Silver misused though has been ripped apart by many forumers and speaker makers -- and listening to the Silver K on the Rotel if that;s what they complain about then I understand and agree -- well matched and for whatever reason it makes a huge diffeence/improvement.

A fellow here got the dealer to re-wire his B&W Nautilus internal wires with Audio Note silver wiring and he claims it made a massive improvement -- I didn't hear em so I don't know.

[Geoffcin]

After careful deliberation and few more auditions I've taken the unusual step of ordering a speaker I've never even listened to. The VS VR2's were better than what I have in just about every regard. My hesitation was limited to-how much better? Without question they were 1,200 better(the going rate at Audiogon) but not positive about 2,495 (new price through the dealer). To be honest I have a bit of a problem going to a dealer for a demo and then buying elsewhere for less. To me that's somewhat dishonest although it wasn't my intention going into the store. If he'd have had the Dynaudio product I was looking for I'm pretty sure I'd have a set of those in my home now.

Regards,
jc

Even though my vote goes to the VR4jr over the VR2, there's a caveat; They are not going to sound incredibly better than the VR2. They don't even sound much different than the VR1, as that's what they basically are, mated with a sophisticated transmission line bass module. That being said, with these modest sized floorstanders you'll get a lot more body to the music, and they can play lower, and cleaner at a louder SPL. I liked them a lot!

Good luck!

[drseid]

Congrats on the new speakers Jim. As a big VS fan myself, I am confident you will be quite happy with the JRs.

Oh, and I agree 100% on the Dali comment. Their cabinets impressed me to no end when I saw them last year. I haven't seen better either (although Jim Salk at Salk Sound is probably as good), and I have owned and seen a lot of nice wood cabinets over the years... Very nice stuff indeed. Now if only they could get their pricing down...

Good luck,

---Dave