Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 169
  1. #1
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539

    Upgraded to Audio Note J - and other musings.

    Listened to Magnepan, B&W, Audio Note on Friday as that was all that I could get time for. 7 hours of listening - minus a short lunch and a few cappuchino's and coffees provided by the great group at Soundhounds. However I have some musings on Totem, Paradigm Signature and Martin Logan as well

    The store was much leaner and less stuffed with gear this time around. They now have a dedicated home theater room with a giant front projection system and all B&W all around in one room. I didn't spend time in there but the picture of the movie ICE AGE was impressive to say the least. The store had set it all up becuase one of the top B&W guys is flying down in a couple of weeks.

    Please no flames this was my impressions of the speakers of the day and not an attack on other people's choices - not everyone is going to like the same things. Follow the bolded spots for discussion of a given speaker to the next bold for the next speaker.

    I was extremely excited getting in the store and seeing a set of Magneplanars in used because I have no problem buying used and people rave so much about them that it would have been nice to hear them before upgrading just to save myself future second guessing.

    The Maggies are not carried by my dealer though they were years ago and he even owned their top of the line for a short while. These were in on trade - looked like big White scratching posts. The model he told me but I forget - something with a 2 in it - it was supposedly the 2nd from the top. Quite large actually - wider than me and maybe ~5.5 feet high
    I had them hook it up to the top of the line MF integrated and a very nice and rugged looking Rotel CD player - have not been paying too much attention to Rotel - but they're at least "looking" better these days.

    I have to say it was a wildly different sound than the B&W and Audio Note speakers. If I stood up and walked toward them the sound became completely muddy like a towel had been put over the singer's mouth - so it is certainly very important to set them up correctly and and be seated at a reasonable height and distance.

    I tried a few discs from Dianna Krall, Tina Turner and Jesse Cook. What was good was an incredibly clear vocal band and a ton of air - I mean a ton of air - plenty of wetness to vocals. The top and bottom end presented some problems - I was not convinced by the location of instruments as if they were on the panel rather than on a stage and the bass while seemingly deep simply had no impact whatsoever - I mean almost zero - it just seemed that on the drum kicks it was just lifeless to me. The music was clear but lacked the full body. It did far better on lighter guitar.

    I do think I understand the appeal of em and why people like them and certainly I understand why some would gravitate to them - certainly against a lot of the boxed competition which are resonance inducers that tend to have a "thumpy" quality. Thus I can certainly understand why one would choose no bass impact over lousy bass impact - the latter is abnoxious - the former isn't missed if you don't know it's supposed to be there. There were qualities that reminded me of Electrostats and it did a lot of terrific things - in the end they're not for me. Not enough meat on the bones was a good analogy IMO.

    The rest of the audiotons were don in the same room, same stands, same electronics - with slight adjustment where needed to satisfy a better posoition for the speakers. Those electronics were as follows:

    Audio Note Meishu 8 watt SET amp - a lower end Audio note integrated running at $10,000Cdn - about twice as high as my 300 disc cd player and deeper by the looks of it.

    Audio Note level 3 cd player - not sure of price - all cabling was Audio Note - with very heavy duty looking power chords directly into high grade wall sockets. Skylan stands used for all speakers.

    Audio Note AN K/Spe was first up in line - this was to let me get accustomed to my speakers in a different room and with much superior gear. I listened for a good hour running through some selections from the discs I brought with me [Classic Yo-Yo, Dianna Krall "Girl in the Other Room", Tina Turner "Simply the Best", Santana "Shaman" and "Abraxas", Leahy "Lakefield, Acoustic Alchemy "Back on the Case", Sarah McLachlan "Mirrorball"(Live album), "Afterglow", CBC's After Hours Jazz Collection, Albinoni "Adagio Albinoni" Naxos 8.552244, Jesse Cook "Tempest", Madonna "The Immaculate Collection", Dido "No Angel", Natalie Cole "Unforgettable"]

    The sound of course was very good to the point where I began thinking "you know a nice B&W or Paradigm sub might work just fine." I came out of the room and the dealer just smiled at my thought and said yes you can add bass but it's not just about bass. Removing the K's he put up the

    Audio Note J/Spe's and within 2 minutes it was game over to thoughts about adding subwoofer(s). The AN K was a standmount that bettered every other standmount around it's size I had ever heard. The J/Spe I'm not sure can really be called a standmount speaker in this day and age to be totally fair. It is roughly 3 times the volume size of the K's and simply sounded much bigger and with far more sense of depth front to back than the K's could muster. The dealer said that Audio Note is trying to prove the diminishing returns theory wrong by having you go in and listen to a product at one level and then saying WOW at the next level - not oh i hear a bit of added bass. The sound was far more open and vocals were simply outstanding with the wetness and sense of air that I have only heard from the best speakers - usually a LOT LOT bigger speakers. The drivers are different in the J to the K as is the crossover and overall design of course - but it's to such a degree that youalmost can't go back - as good as the K's are already the J takes it all up a league in every regard - and they still manage to remain postion friendly despite rear porting.

    The Albinoni disc was the deciding factor - classical music is so tough to do well because hardness brightness can completely distract me from the music. Not so here - it was the first time I was moved to tears from a session at a store. There was no hint of grain anywhere at anytime and that is a tribute to well designed gear. Closing my eyes the stereo "system" was gone - the listening "for" sonic attributes dissapeared - leaving musicality at the top of the list. We can talk of dips and spikes in frequency graphs, box versus no box, SET versus SS, Audio Note arrogance, multi-way versus 2 way versus one way, Metal versus planar versus stat etc etc etc. The emotion the enveloping nature of the great systems have it ---- find yours - whether it's Audio Note or not is not important - LISTEN and wait for something to provide you some cort of cathartic listening experience.


    Rather than blathering on more I say go listen.

    I listened to a lower level J against the J/Spe on another thread. The Basic J/L is no longer made and was a terrific speaker and was probably selling for $4kCdn

    B&W N805 - I was going to go with the 705 - but really you'll see a billion of those reviews in the next months - So a look see at the favorite N805 again can't hurt and I thought was warranted considering it runs $3000.00Cdn - and more "In competition" with the K and J.

    The presentation was good old B&W but better than I have heard in the past expecially at the frequency extremes. The Meishu at a mere 8 watts had no trouble with the b&W playing at high levels while maintaining deep bass(well as deep as the 805 musters) and a smooth effrtless top end with a touch of hardness for the style of tweeter,crossover, woofer choices they have made. The N805 would be a pleasure to own and it's still a great speaker - but this amp/cd player combo would be my choice. The SET Meishu exhibited absolutely no noise whether loud or not nor at any time did i need to move the knob past 12 O'clock to get good levels - and there was plenty on tap for more. I would still take the presentation of the K over the N805 simply due to the more cohesive sound from top to bottom. The J/Spe or J/L simply embarrased the N805 - and they should given the cost. Though the J at soundhounds are last years model and cost $500.00 less - but this is a fluke deal. The J is simply giving you way more of what's on the disc with much much deeper and tuneful bass response and a top end that that was reminiscent of the openness and air of the Magnepans.

    Interesting thing I noted about the J's was that you almost NEVER see the woofer actually move even on demanding bass material. The E is like this as well though the woofer on the K would visibly move more. From Madonna's Vogue to Classical pieces at prettyhigh levels the woofer seems not to budge - at elast not to the naked eye. Presumably they will at very very high levels with very high bass content but I didn't see it. The dealer said that this is because the cabinet is not created to work AGAINST the driver like virtually all other box designs. It is indeed designed like a violin or guitar box were the entire cabinet is involved in creating the sound - the driver doesn't need to move very far to get the cabinet going and let it handle the rest. From that I was attempting to hear a box colouration because that "should" happen but nary did I find it.

    What I could not hear on the day:
    Paradigm Signature Series. I wanted too given the request - but the dealer brought the Signature Series in for several weeks and shipped them back. The problem was simply thay they felt the sound was simply too close to the Studio reference line and desipite the vastly superior cabinets and finishing in the signature models they felt the sound didn't live up to the levels of the money charged - not against what the store is currently carrying. They decide what makes the grade in their store. Don't shoot the messenger - this is what THEY said not me so don't get in a hissy fit at me about it. Indeed, this also indicated that they think highly of the Studio models in fact and might save Paradigm lovers from a looks over sound upgrade. Remember the B&W CM series is supposedly an upgrade over the 600 series but is JUST cosmetic.

    I also wanted to hear the Totem Rainmaker but alas the dealer said they will not be buyuing anymore stock though they will remain an ordering hub - if you want one you can order one kinda deal. The same deal with Martin Logan. The size and positioning price and sound to varrying degrees were tough for them to move.

    Canadians and Audio Note specific shoppers
    Musings about Soundhounds and Audio Note. The owner at Soundhounds who I met, while he was tweaking out a Juke Box :-) a fancy one at that, is in the works to have the speaker building done at Soundhounds to reduce costs - the entry Dacs are already being made in Canada. The owner of Soundhounds has bought one of the top E models and an all AN system - like all the other salesman - and is awaiting the new Ongaku-On integrated which is on the way.


    I asked about them laying the Audio Note "love in" on a bit thick. And he said that if we just sold Audio Note we would go out of business to be frank. Most People come in to a place like Soundhounds and they have a preset product in their mind to buy, usually their big name sellers - which I presumed was Boston Acoustics, B&W and Paradigm. There job is not to re-invent the wheel. Where they can sell Audio Note is when people spend a lot of time in there and are not too impressed with what they actually hear from their preconceived expectations. But if someone comes in and Wants Reference 3a or B&W they sell Reference 3a and B&W. He also noted that what do you always here us listening to in the main rig (which is the center of the store). It's always Audio Note despite the fact that they carry far costlier gear.

    I also thought it was interesting to meet a customer who re-wired his B&W speakers with Audio Note Silver wiring and was astounded by the improved results. He lives near the store and has been an audio shopper there for 28 years - never was impressed with the notions that cables made a different - brought them home never a change - until Audio Note. I'm personally very skeptical of cables but hey they will mail em to me to try and if I don't like em I can mail em back - or go and pick them up to ttry at home and bring em back etc - no cost - and the cables are not as obscene as I thought. Though $7.00Cdn a foot is still a lot more than $1.50 a foot - but many are $50.00 a foot out there so???

    I was also surprised they closed their store down and had all their staff down at CES in Vegas with Mr. Qvortrup - with picture on the Soundhounds site of their top gear.

    Personal Note to 92135011 I only upgraded from the K/Spe to the J/Spe because of the price you told me they were selling them for. There is no way I could afford a speaker this expensive normally. I am also happy that soundhounds reconsidered the initial trade-in value I was offerred and decided to give me 100% trade-in. I'm also glad I went to hear them and not thought it was just going to be about bass - in fact the added bass(which is considerable) is probably the smallest reason I went to the J.

    Incidentally, they said listening to the AN E/Spe for any period would likely have me wanting something I couldn't afford and steered me away from listening to one (I ran out of time anyway) - and they also did an LP experiment at CES with Audio Note's second best turtable - and a re-worked version of the Voyd Reference (largely considered the world's best turntable), on a set of high end E's. They got results of 16hz and even 12hz(but they had a term for this of which I forgot) - People who went into that room didn't believe there was no subwoofer running - including folks from B&W. They simply would not have it that an 8incher from a small box(smaller than a 9NT) could put out that kind of sound and also that kind of bass.

    The AN J stands were not in and are behind shipment as the company movied locations - so I have to use the 20 inch stands over the recommended 14-16 incher. Considering that they're still spankingly good on my Skylans.
    Last edited by RGA; 06-06-2004 at 07:59 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    436
    So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you.
    Interesting stuff about the CES LP experiment. Although, I'm thinking...is 16hz even all that practical? What artists would I need to look for to actually go that low? Most of the "bassy" stuff these days is usually midbass like dance or something. Although I have heard an amazing CD of this group of about 100 Chinese Drummers. Too bad I never got the name of that CD...really neat stuff probably could go down to 16 hz. But other than that, I'm not sure I've really listened to anything that requires it.

    You going to stay on the 20 inch stand?

  3. #3
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    Smile RGA, keep up the good work!

    [QUOTE=RGA]Listened to Magnepan, B&W, Audio Note on Friday ... QUOTE]

    I greatly respect your opinions which are based on frequent and extensive listening; that especially applies to spearkers. So I was particularly interested to hear that you finally got to listen to some Magneplanars. Your conclusions re. these speakers are not at all surprising, given (a) the nature of the speakers, and (b) your particular preferences.

    To address the the latter first, it does seem you place high priority on dynamics, both macro and micro. It would seem that Audio Notes excel in this area. At least this is what your numerous reports imply to me; unfortunately I have never heard any AN speaker myself. Dynamics, particularly marco dynamics, are not areas of strength for Magneplanars. Especially with the smaller models -- certainly the MMG which I own -- a subwoofer is called for if you listen to anything much more than chamber music. BTW, I was able to "seamlessly" integrate my sub with minimal effort: I recommend an active cross-over at 80Hz for the MMGs, albeit the lower bass looses some "tightness".

    Placement of Magneplanars is critical though not necessarily difficult. (This is true of all dipole, bipole, and omni speakers including Martin Logans, etc..) When auditioning them, always watch positioning: they ought to be 3+ feet from any wall for a start. That is, unless room treatments are used, but the effect of these can be difficult to gauge.

    Magnepan is sometime criticized for not building better cross-overs or for not using good enough x-over components. And they have never bothered to sell products tweaked in this respect -- here one might say they are the antithesis of Audio Note.

    By all means give Magneplanar more auditions when you have the opportunity. I doubt that you will make them your personal choice, but you might come to see why so many people love them. Or why, (regardless of your opinion of press reviewer in general), TAS rates all of Magnepan's models (except MMG), "best buys" in their respective price categories.

  4. #4
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    The Magnepans were at least three feet from the rear wall maybe as much as 5. My dealer had their big ones way back. I do think I understand their appeal - my review of the AN K versus AN J is ot me an indication that adding a subwoofer simply doesn't do the job. A subwoofer adds bass - but the J would always be a more open sounding speaker than the K. Bass and dynamics are not quite the same thing.

    And no matter the reviews in the end everything gets a good review - you still have to listen - the maggies and electrostats present a very different sound you either will buy into or not. Not knocking them - many people love em - many don't - so what else is new in the audio world.

  5. #5
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you.
    Interesting stuff about the CES LP experiment. Although, I'm thinking...is 16hz even all that practical? What artists would I need to look for to actually go that low? Most of the "bassy" stuff these days is usually midbass like dance or something. Although I have heard an amazing CD of this group of about 100 Chinese Drummers. Too bad I never got the name of that CD...really neat stuff probably could go down to 16 hz. But other than that, I'm not sure I've really listened to anything that requires it.

    You going to stay on the 20 inch stand?
    Organs and Synthesizers can go way down. People seem to think LP's will have trouble with deep bass - or for that matter that SETs can't do it or that one 8inch woofer can do it.

    SO put all three of these supposed things together and get more bass than say the B&W N801 with a top of the line Krell and maybe people will clue in that no actually these old antiquated systems - supposedly - can kick the snot out of the NEW supposedly superior designs. SETs are not complicated enough to be able to reproduce full range music is one silly notion I have read.

    Stereophile has actually reviewed an Audio note preamp in this issue - have not read it - not that reviews are important anyway but I might like to see what they think.

  6. #6
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,717
    Nice review RGA and I hope you enjoy your new toys. I'm actually going to Vancouver for vacation this summer so if I get a chance, I'm hoping to drop into Soundhounds and finally hear the AN's myself.

    Now, if I could just find a nice resort...

  7. #7
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    One small point in that regard

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    ...Bass and dynamics are not quite the same thing. ...
    Bass and dynamics aren't the same thing at all. The reason I recommend a sub with smaller Magneplanars is that the sub unburdens the Maggie of dynamic demand below the cross-over point. Most subs have more dynamic capability than the planar element, hence the combo has better over all dynamics. Deeper bass is a just bonus if you like.

    I haven't had the sub integration problems some people have had. I tried a 50Hz cross-over and didn't like it. But that was because the setting didn't transfer sufficient dynamic demand to the sub, not at all because the sub was "slower" that the planar or such explanation.

  8. #8
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Nice review RGA and I hope you enjoy your new toys. I'm actually going to Vancouver for vacation this summer so if I get a chance, I'm hoping to drop into Soundhounds and finally hear the AN's myself.

    Now, if I could just find a nice resort...
    Soundhounds is in Victoria so it will require a ferry ride. But if you're on Vacation I should think you would want to include Vancouver Island anyway. A lot of nice summer spots on the island - Tofino on the west coast is supposed to be great - i still have yet to go and I live on the island

  9. #9
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    436
    Tofino is mega expensive these days I hear.
    Plus if you arent a big beach or fishing fan, then its not really for you.
    Ferry these days isnt cheap either. Think a car would cost you a good 40-50 one way. That's why its such a waste to go there for a day trip. Just the travel itself runs about almost 150. Then of course there are the attraction tix, which some of them are a ripoff - such as buchart gardens and others

  10. #10
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Topspeed is from the States though - so their money goes considerably further up here. Certainly it would not be advisable to ocme for one day - but coming over for 3-5 days and staying in a travel lodge in the Victoria area would be a good move. If you come to Vancouver and you don't go to the Island kinda short changes yourself. Depends how long your trip is too of course - but typically the Island and Whistler are the major places outside the Vancouver area to be seen. Whale watching is a popular activity in Tofino as well.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    dallas, tx
    Posts
    33

    Little supprised...no PSB

    Well since you are pricing things in Loons (Canadian $ for those unfamillar with the slang term) I am assuming you live in Canada.

    If that is the case I am surprised that you have not given your local Canadian PSB a listen. The alpha is great for the money and the Image series is a even better value.

    It is clear that you are aiming at wide soundstage stereo only music.

    You gave a very fair (and close to my impression of the Maggies) so I figure that you may like the same type of sound I like.

    I had a pair of psb 2b and I loved the sound and mostly the soundstage.

    I now own a pair of B&W 601 with a asw 300 sub for my stereo room. Next I will upgrade to the Triangle titan 202.

  12. #12
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    Huh? Say what?

    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    So your report on the maggies was exactly what one salesguy told me. If you like soundstage, this aint the speaker for you. ...
    Your sales person's definition of soundstage must be different from mine. Soundstage plus transparency are the Magneplanar halmarks.

  13. #13
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by ciscokid1970
    Well since you are pricing things in Loons (Canadian $ for those unfamillar with the slang term) I am assuming you live in Canada.

    If that is the case I am surprised that you have not given your local Canadian PSB a listen. The alpha is great for the money and the Image series is a even better value.

    It is clear that you are aiming at wide soundstage stereo only music.

    You gave a very fair (and close to my impression of the Maggies) so I figure that you may like the same type of sound I like.

    I had a pair of psb 2b and I loved the sound and mostly the soundstage.

    I now own a pair of B&W 601 with a asw 300 sub for my stereo room. Next I will upgrade to the Triangle titan 202.
    I'm not quite sure who you're addressing with this. I have listened to PSB's - good speakers to be sure for the most part. You may not be as familiar with Audio Note http://www.triodeandco.com/Prod_Loudspeakers.html

  14. #14
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    92135011

    Here's a pic of the soundhounds crew. Peter Qvortrup is back right - Sounhounds owner back left and my sales guy Paul is second left sitting down. It also gives you an idea as to the size of the AN E with outboard crossover. You have to click on winter CES photo because the picture is too big for this site and I don't know how to reduce the soize of pictures??? http://www.soundhounds.com/

  15. #15
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    36
    Congratulations RGA! you're lucky to get the SPes for such a bargain.

    btw, that's a great review you wrote there! what are your impressions with regards to timbral quality and tonality of the AN-Js compared with the N805s? any chance the experience will make you go the tubes route?

  16. #16
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    The N805 has brighter presentation and the bottom end lacks body - it's a much smaller speaker than the J and has a sound which is much smaller - the bass can boom a little and you hear more box. But the AN J/SPe sells in the US for nearly double the price of the N805 and frankly should be THAT much better.

    Basically, when you start listening to something and then you go back and listen to something not up to it it's hard to not to gain a snob-like attitude. Even the dealer admitted that when you hear the AN E upper models the AN K sounds like a clock radio by comparison - and unfortunately that's almost the way I perceive the N805 - directly compared I laughed because it's just no contest. The J has a huge soundstage real bass response without a hint of boom - the ear gravitates to the N805's tweeter and bass and less on the music. Granted if you didn't do a side by side the N805 is a terrific speaker - no real nasty habits better than most for the money. Those dealers who own the AN E/Spe probably couldn't go back to the J/Spe in the same manner.

    They've been in business for 30 years - line or not I don't know, but they said they consider AN to be the best stuff, musically, they've ever carried from cables, cd players, turntables, speakers and amps - and they have carried a lot of gear during that time. It's not a fly by night operation they've been around for a long time on the merit of their sound - because they don't look like anything - they don't play the pay for reviews bribe the reviewer game. Many review publications expect to be GIVEN the product they review or other "thank-you" gifts.

    I will likely save for the Soro SE. My Sugden is out of its league playing with these speakers - and I think I get why Peter Q is adamant about his amplifiers. I was considering adding a preamp but I may just get the integrated. 8 watts is more than I could ever need with both my speakers - the clarity non edgy but not glossed over nature of the Meishu was fantastic and I already heard the Soro last time was there. I think to get the best results all Audio Note is the way to go - while that is a very expensive proposition - for the first time i don't need the hassle of worry about good matches for my speaker etc - I know they designed it all to match.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    1,188
    Thank you for your extensive listening notes. I felt like you were someone at the audio equivalent of a wine tasting describing your sensory reactions to what you heard and the differences of the different models. Unfortunately, a recent visit to Audio Note's web site revealed that there is no longer a dealer anywhere near me so I will probably not have an opportunity to hear them for myself for the forseeable future.

    "The dealer said that this is because the cabinet is not created to work AGAINST the driver like virtually all other box designs. It is indeed designed like a violin or guitar box were the entire cabinet is involved in creating the sound "

    It is this kind of absurd rhetoric which makes me highly dubious of the claims made for A/N products. This is rediculous. The science and art of designing speaker enclosures has been developed for about 75 years and every conceivable type of enclosure has not only been tried but many of them have been extensively modeled mathematically in conjunction with drivers of different types. Among the more efficient enclosure/speaker combinations are horns and folded horns. Virtually every other speaker manufacturer besides A/N regards any resonances from the enclosure itself to be spurious because they are uncontrolled in amplitude. They take every conceivable step to eliminate those unwanted resonances by bracing the enclosures or making them from materials which do not resonate. It is hard to accept claims for a loudspeaker system which fly in the face of the otherwise universally accepted goal of non structural resonance of the enclosure by comparing them to musical instruments where the thinness, shape, induced stresses, and materials are deliberately chosen to enhance these types of resonances. The type of blanket put down of all other loudspeaker enclosures besides the ones employed by A/N is the kind of hype not usually associated with advertising for high end audio equipment. This accompanied by an unusual lack of technical details about the design philosophy or construction of these products is very disturbing, especially given their cost. The manufacturer seems to lose the distinction between the "machines" he makes and sells, and actual musical insturments other people make.

  18. #18
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The Maggies are not carried by my dealer though they were years ago and he even owned their top of the line for a short while. These were in on trade - looked like big White scratching posts. The model he told me but I forget - something with a 2 in it - it was supposedly the 2nd from the top. Quite large actually - wider than me and maybe ~5.5 feet high.
    Actually, they would be at least three down from the top. 20.1 then 3.6 then the now discontined 2.6. Or even further down as the 12s. A visit to the magnepan.com site might help. My first planars was a pair of MG-IIs thirty years ago. While they were definitely frequency extreme restricted, their presentation was very coherent. The current top three all use ribbon tweeters which does transform their high frequency capability over those that were not. Having said that, you do need to get some distance from them for the drivers to blend. One small "fix" is simply to place the tweeters "inboard" rather than "outboard" as the different ffrequency drivers run vertically in the panels. I could very easily live with a pair of 20.1s - I heard HP's nicely driven pair in Seacliff.

    You are most correct in that folks have different listening priorities when it comes to speakers. As for me, I cherish coherency, transient response, and imaging. As Feanor suggested, imaging contains a sub-category of characteristics that involve priorities as well. For me the live experience involves a large image. While it is not simply a question of height, I have yet to hear a satisfying large image from a small speaker, whether it is on stands or not. I am most aware that the sound is rising to meet me and it is perceived to be more distant. My 'stats run floor to ceiling. The image completely fills my listening space in height, width, and depth. Mine are situated eight feet from the back wall. While they are certainly not perfect, they do those things that I cherish most right. Since they are full range, they bypass the whole crossover question altogether. Yet, they beam big time. Move from the center listening chair and the image changes significantly. Positioning them took lots of experimentation. They requires lots of power to deliver realistic SPLs (my amps are 200/450 watt tube monoblocks). But they are able to "float" a very coherent image of a voice, strings, woodwinds, or whatever in a most convincing manner. I find planars better able to reproduce the timbre of bass instruments than most cones with their lower mass and uniform drive. The speakers I aspire to get some day are the Soundlabs A-1s.

    To each his own.

    rw

  19. #19
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Is he really flying in the face of everyone else - since the well proven design has been there since the 1940's - and modified once by Snell and then by PQ?

    Your assessment was similarly asked on AA:

    "The reason violins, guitars, etc. have boxes is because they PRODUCE music. Speakers don't. They REPRODUCE music. The box is a big, heavy, distortion producing artifact. The best box is either no box, or a silent box. The only silent box I've personally ever heard were on the Wilson Audio X1 GRAND SLAAM...$65k. 2 inch thick synthetic marble.

    So the previous poster is fairly correct. Speakers do NOT need box resonance to operate, look at any dipole.
    Read up on speaker design theory, and you'll understand a lot more.

    -tal"

    "Dear Tal,

    Let's put this to bed once and for all, Mount Everest has a resonance frequency, low yes, but it still resonates.

    We can therefore reasonably conclude that everything resonates, there is no such thing as a speaker with no box (popular as the concept may seem, you have to mount the drivers in something, even if it is a panel driver), so we have essentially two choices,

    1.) Build a box that minimises the resonant behaviour by applying mass, which does nothing useful in most cases, because whilst a lower resonance frequency at lower amplitude may look great on a waterfall graph, the reality is that it prolongs the amount of time the resonant energy is present, which leaves it present for long enough to disturb the replay.

    In addition, damping is "stupid" in the sense that it removes both the sounds you want and the ones you are trying to get rid of.

    2.) Build a cabinet which has a fast enough recovery time to stay within the human ear's time constant, that is, be close enough to the original note, to be indistinguishable by the human ear.

    Method no. 2.) is much much harder to apply, as working out how to RAISE the resonance frequency and shorten it towards inaudibility requires hundreds of hours of experimentation AND does provide beautiful waterfall graphs with which to present your latest resonance removing technique as another breakthrough of "innovation" with which to sell next years crop of speakers with.

    All our measurement methods and conventions dictate that making the cabinet heavier is better, unfortunately the truth is that it is a convenient, but poor way of solving the problem.

    Sincerely,
    Peter Qvortrup "


    Dear RGA,
    It should say - 6 dB at 23 kHz, the problem with this kind of information is that it largely depends on how far away it was measured and in what kind of environment, anachoic or reverberant, so you need a whole load more information to be able to determine what the speaker actually does.

    Given that most software, whether LP or CD does not have much energy above 15kHz and also considering that many of the recognised best recordings don't either, I think it is a mute issue whether bandwidth above 15kHz matters that much to the musical hearing experience, I think, as with most paper specifications, that they are designed to impress the less knowledgeable consumer into believing that they are making a choice based on "solid" information, which is important when they are making a buying decision.

    A number of magazines and audio companies use our speakers, as do several mastering studios, we do not advertise this generally, because I do not feel that it is right to influence people's judgement of performance this way, I have the same view of specifications, they tell you little or nothing about the real world performance.

    Sincerely,
    Peter Qvortrup"



    The comparison to musical instruments is for the layman in that they actually use the cabinet itself like a musical instrument does, to create the sound. Most box speakers don't - which is why so many of the speakers you hear in a given price range say sound nearly identical - different treble and one might have more bass etc but they sound almost identical in the dyamics room filling kind of weightyness aspects.

    In the end though I am forced to simply go by what I hear - you have way more of a technical background and have the right to question his approach. But right or wrong it sounds right to me. And I know you are not impressed with a LOT of speakers currently available yourself because you have oftened mentioned that "Brightness" that I also complain about.

    Thus does it not make sense that an entirely different approach would or at least "could" be better. If the New accepted designs are not exactly getting you to sell your old designed AR9's then maybe other old designs are also better than the new ones. His master speaker is the Snell AII I believe. I can honestly say that take away all other considerations I would take the J ~3k over the N801 at $14k. So yes things at AN may be overpriced but to me then what is the N801? The point is to make you feel something when you listen for me that is AN for you may leave you totally cold and another it's Quad etc. I don't think this is rocket science.

    Also:
    Why not ask him some technical questions - He spends time on AA, he answers people's questions but has to dumb it down for less technically minded people - he's at every show, runs the company puts the stuff together designs and still takes the time to frequent AA and admittedly come under the gun on occasion. His digital products took a lot of flack too - I wonder if people actually heard and compared though.

    The guy is pasionate and thinks he's right - and if he's right then to him everyone is less right to outright wrong - presumably Peter Walker felt that way about electrostats and whoever runs Magnepan feels that way too...and the people who buy those speakers because they genuinely love the sound will believe that those designers were dead right - even though someone like yourself can easily come along and find the "technical" flaws or weaknesses in planars and stats - nothing is perfect.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    1,188
    The "box" in a loudspeaker system serves one or more of several useful purposes, most having to do with low frequency reproduction. Since vibrating membranes like loudspeaker cones produce sound from both the front and the back, and since sound from the back is 180 degrees out of phase with sound from the front, if the speaker has no enclosure, the sound from the back will cancel the sound from the front and the bass will be very weak. Ported enclosures cause the wave from the back to invert in phase and emerge in phase with the wave from the front. Unfortunately, they are very frequency selective and usually have a series of resonance and antiresonance nodes. Infinite baffles try to just prevent the back wave from reaching the front. Acoustic suspension speakers use the air pressure trapped in a relatively small box to control the cone motion in additon to preventing it from emerging out of phase and canceling out the front wave. Horn enclosures are the mechanical equivalent of electrical transformers efficiently coupling the energy from the front of the speaker to the room by providing a suitable back pressure at the narrow end of the horn to load the driver efficiently while providing a transition to a low pressure end which couples efficiently with a large room. Enclosureless speakers like Magnepan magneplanar types have to take special measures to overcome this out of phase problem. They are probably effectively back to back drivers in a bi polar configuration having the back wave emerge in phase with the front wave instead of out of phase. There are many others clever enclosure ideas like isobaraks which have an inner driver to effectively increase the effective size of the enclosure for loading purposes without increasing its physical size. I don't see how you can glibly dismiss the role of a loudspeaker enclosure. One thing all of them have in common. The guy who builds them does NOT want them to add spurious resonances to the sound of his speaker.

    "In addition, damping is "stupid" in the sense that it removes both the sounds you want and the ones you are trying to get rid of."

    Once again this kind of statement flies in the face of accepted and well proven facts. This should be especially evident to anyone who tries to design an acoustic suspension speaker system like A/N K. Of the three parameters which control the frequency response of a loudspeaker; mass, springiness, and damping, the internal damping material used to control overshoot of the cone is the only thing that prevents it from exhibiting boomy undamped resonances. This is a direct application of Newton's second law of motion applied to the phenomenon of forced resonance. It is presented in every freshman college physics textbook along with its solution and explanation. BTW, it is one of the most widely used equations for analyzing and designing mechanical systems including for example the suspension on your car. For ported systems, the driver suspensions are usually much tighter so the damping can be done mostly by the driver itself. The box can be "tuned" to any frequency desired given the right dimension and internal configuration. I'd like to see a cutaway view of the A/N J and E series which are two way 8 inch ported designs. The extremely low claimed low frequency cutoff suggests a kind of transmission line loading to tune the relatively small cabinet to such a low frequency.

    I do not and will not post on AA. For me the site is unacceptable. As I said on the cable message board, I posted there for a short time many years ago. I was not thrown out, I left on my own but had I stayed, the outcome would not have been in doubt.

  21. #21
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    With the E anyway apparently the cabinet is tuned nearly a full octave below the driver midbass driver cuttoff - well according to an advert I was reading.

    The Audio Note Absolute Zero floorstanders are essentially Transmission line speakers from what the dealers were saying. The back of the speaker about 3/4 the way up was cut completely out and you could look down inside the speaker. AN calls it [Two-way folded, parabolic, rear-loaded, quarter-wave quasi-horn-loaded floor-standing loudspeakers] instead of transmission line I guess.

    Way back when I was looking at the AN/K specifically - Peter told me exactly where to get info on them:

    "You may find this even funnier, they are actually 1940's cabinet shapes, read L. L. Beranek's Loudspeakers and you will find the calculation for all our speakers, cabinet shape, driver position etc.
    What you will not find is how we match the drivers to each other to maximise efficiency, dispersion and overall tonal balance."

    This L.L Beranek guy - I've seen his name a lot in acoustics even for car companies to control vibration and B&W referred to him in their FAQ section - you would likely be WAY more familiar with him than I.

    RE: the K
    "As to the drivers, they are both from Vifa in Denmark, the tweeter is a highly modified version of the TD19, no ferro fluid, no damping and a special ferrite magnet, the woofer is also a Vifa which is a derivative of the original standard driver.

    But really if you want to know exactly what is inside the speakers and all there other products why not go to that AudioAsylum board - they now have a dedicated Audio Note Kits forum - can't get into trouble if you just read through what the builders are saying http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/au...ekits/bbs.html - I can't find the picture of the inside of the E kit but they had all the parts all sitting there ready to placed in the box.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    436
    RGA,
    why not go for a kit2 with preamp kit.
    I know that the dealer advised against a preamp, but probably means he is against using a pre with the A48b. Plus the kit2 with preamp kit are both tube so it should be ok.
    The 2 units will run you 1700US (probably a notch less after negotiation) Plus you can sell off your Sugden for a little bit. Save 7% on taxes, which is another 150 or so. So at the end you are looking at about the same as the soro.

    Good thing is that you can easily upgrade it when you get more cash. If you are uncomfortable with kit building, I can help you build it if you would like and if you can trust me of course. Light electronics is sort of a hobby for me anyways.

  23. #23
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Yeah it's going to be at least a year before I could do something like this. I'm already WAY over budget in going with the J's in the first place. Thanks for the generous offer though. You are right they were not against the preamp kit or preamp but they didn't feel it was a worthy move to use my amp as power amp as it is solid state.

    I'll probably wait until I come back from Japan - roughly 4 years from now before I make a move - unless I marry a rich girl by then who loves music too. Or a lottery happens my way.

    I will probably keep the Sugden and run it as a power amp for my Marantz receiver. Of course this assumes the receiver lasts five years.

    Sugden has pulled themselves from north America apparently - probably because people here buy based off of looks and features over actual sound quality and build construction. .

    I also noticed that Soundhounds was selling some of the AN amplifier Kits which they assembled for $3000.00. UGLY freakin things with a lot of tubes and uncovered transformers. - Definitely pay extra to get the covers - I mean there is acceptable ugly and then there is UGGGLY. From the looks of it they were very well built.

  24. #24
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    436
    Actually, check out Audionotekits.com
    The new kit1 is larger and has a stainless steel chassis. Looks better than the old one.
    And yes...the covers are a MUST.

    I'm going to build myself some of those kits in due time.
    When I'm done you are welcome to drop by to give them a listen to see if its your cup of tea. Then it will give you a good idea what you getting yourself into if you do decide to invest. The kits are undergoing a lot of change. The preamp kit right now looks like the M2. But in a few months time they will look closer like the M3 (to accomodate more transformers and such). The excellent thing about kits is that you can upgrade it bit by bit rather than buy a whole new unit (OPT, caps, atteunators, etc.)

  25. #25
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    Actually, check out Audionotekits.com
    The new kit1 is larger and has a stainless steel chassis. Looks better than the old one.
    And yes...the covers are a MUST.

    I'm going to build myself some of those kits in due time.
    When I'm done you are welcome to drop by to give them a listen to see if its your cup of tea. Then it will give you a good idea what you getting yourself into if you do decide to invest. The kits are undergoing a lot of change. The preamp kit right now looks like the M2. But in a few months time they will look closer like the M3 (to accomodate more transformers and such). The excellent thing about kits is that you can upgrade it bit by bit rather than buy a whole new unit (OPT, caps, atteunators, etc.)
    How much are these kits - the Kit two says it's only $999.00US Is it an integrated amp? How much is the Kit one? They say all you need is a soldering iron besically.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •