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Thread: Subwoofers

  1. #1
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Subwoofers

    I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new sub. Its come down to 2 Velodyne subs-

    The Velodyne Optimum 10" http://velodyne.com/products/specs/OptimumSpecs.html

    or

    The Velodyne Digital Drive DD 10- which has an adjustable high gain servo control

    http://velodyne.com/products/specs/DigitalDrive.html

    In doing some research on subs, I've found this site of reviews for FYI-

    http://www.avrev.com/equipment-revie...5/start/0.html
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  2. #2
    Suspended
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    Have you considered SVS? The SVS blows my old Velodyne SPL 1200 away. In fact, if the 1200 is typical of Velodyne I wouldn't use them for music at all. It's remarkable how fast and accurate the U13 is. It also goes much deeper.

    www.svsound.com

  3. #3
    Suspended
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    SVS also offers what looks to be an awesome separate PEQ.

  4. #4
    Charm Thai™
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    Optimum 10 all the way. You 'll see how the remote control is soooooo handy.

    I've got the SPL-1500R and the Microvee...luv em both. I use them both in 2-channel systems.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    The fact is, Velodyne makes compact subwoofers, which is why they have to employ 1000+ watt amps to even hope to a achieve the same output/frequency response as bigger and sometimes much cheaper subs (SVS for example). Also, the sealed nature of their small cabinets doesn't help with efficiency. For the price of the DD-10, you can find subs that will be just as musical, and offer much lower distortion at higher outputs and reach a lot deeper. I simply couldn't bring myself to splash 2k+ , no matter how good it is for a 10" (servo or not). There are soo many options you can have in the US for the same price and even a lot less which will yield better results. If you're going to pay that kind of money for a sub, you want something that can easily reach 20Hz at decent levels without compression. Here is a post from AVS on the DD-10:
    The DD-10 is a very small sub designed to have a flat, extended frequency response, but it does this at the expense of the ability to produce deeper bass at any significant volume. It cannot produce deep bass loud enough to do a good job with movie soundtracks that call for that. Things go real well up to about 90db or so and then severe compression begins to take place.

    Here is a test result of a DD-10. Although this is with older SMS-1 software, it can give you a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.
    http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0

    Pay close attention to how limited the output capability is in the 20 to 30 hz range.


    I know you'll be using it for music and not movies but it still applies. My first choice, without going DIY with a 1K$ budget would be the the 15" sealed sub from rythmik audio. It's servo too

    I'm sure the DD-10 is a good sub given its size. But when you factor in the price of the thing, it simply doesn't make sense to buy one.
    Heck, if I had that money to spend on a sub I'd be buying two for music listening.

    I do have a question. Are you looking at 10" subs because you think they will be 'faster' musically?

  6. #6
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I'm leaning to the DD for a number of reasons. Price is about $1350. It will be used only for 2 ch music with my Magnepan 1.6's. Sealed subs tend to match better with Maggies. The DD has an adjustable High Gain servo Control unit to limit distortion. The DD 10 supposedly can go as low as 18Hz although I don't care if it goes lower than 25Hz. It also is a nice size, not to big. My room is only 17x17x9.5' I also need speaker level inputs as this is how I will be hooking up the sub. I talked to Velodyne and this is their preferred route for my application and system. REL also recommends this route.

    It also comes with a nice onscreen equalizer and the biggie for me is the Remote Control as Shodulik pointed out. Also, all the reviews have been great, many comparing it to much more expensive subs. If I had the money I would buy a REL Britannia. This sub is a beast and puts out wonderful sounding deep bass with no audible distortion. My Magnepan dealer recommends them for Maggies over the other high end subs he sells.

    http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b2.htm

    I appreciate the feedback!
    Last edited by blackraven; 01-18-2010 at 04:28 AM.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  7. #7
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    That's a bargain then, given the retail price.
    The big advantage of the DD-10 which I didn't mention earlier is the complete EQ it comes with.
    If space is indeed a concern, and the price at 1.3K, I would say go for it.

  8. #8
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Can you explain why Velodyne and REL recommend using the speaker level input? Just curious.

  9. #9
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    REL has what I considered a different approach to the sub hook up, there explanation is on their website, I wouldn't be able to explain it properly from memory. I do recall they strongly encourage and have designed the sub to connect to the amplifier's speaker terminal right along with the speaker cable. It's also one of the first subs I've seen to offer separate inputs for music and HT with independent volume control.

  10. #10
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    When you say right along with the speaker cable, you mean parallel? I assumed we were talking about a pass-through.

  11. #11
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    Yeah, parallel, here's a set up link in case you didn't find it. Also notice that REL says "corner placement is best because corner placement produces the MOST LINEAR BASS response". So does SVS. This is opposite to what about 90% of the members here tell posters. I personally trust REL & SVS, I think they should know.

    http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/manuals/REL-SET-UP.doc

  12. #12
    Old AR guy, reincarnated.
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    I went with dual SVS PB12 NSDs. If you are not starving for space. These guys will give you more than enough deep accurate bass for both music and movies. I have had mine over two years now and will keep them for my lifetime.....if they last that long. The subs are the only part of my system that I will not consider a change. You'll end up with more power in reserve than you'll ever use. Unless you want to demonstrate an atomic explosion.
    Samsung 50" 1080p DLP w/LED light engine. Harmon Kardon AVR 635, Denon DVD-1920, Sony PS3, Athena F2.2 Fronts, Athena C2 Center, Acoustic Research M1 Holographic Rears, Polk Audio TSi100 rears. Dual SVS PB12 NSD Subwoofers Stacked. Direct TV HD receiver. 10 gauge speaker wiring, Subs are cabled by Cobalt, The rest of my cables are Monster and Monoprice.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Any one have any experience with the Martin Logan Grotto i sub? I've found one for about $1K. There are only a few user reviews which have all been positive. I like the fact that it is also a servo controlled sub. Bare in mind that this will be for 2ch music only to pair with my MG 1.6's. It usually sells for about $1500. By the way, if any one is interested there is a Martin Logan 12" Abyss sub on sale at One Call for $599 which is about $400 off the normal price.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  14. #14
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    I'm not sure if that model, or what model, I heard some of the ML subs in set ups. The bass was powerful and tight. When i was shopping for a sub I can't remember why ML was taken off the list, I think it was a simple matter of size. I didn't have much room for a sub. The REL i wanted was expensive and they like corners and speaker terminal hook up neither of which are possible in my room. Linn only uses BNC and hook up would be a pain. So fate took me to the SVS and after using it I thinnk things worked out for the best.

    As a side note the ports can be plugged on the cylinder SVS subs. The result the sub plays further down but in turn can't go as high. The U13 sounds like no other sub I've heard. It's clean and accurate more like a speaker that just goes deep. No boom or rumble for loss of control.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I'm going to roll off the sub at around 45hz.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  16. #16
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Go for the DD, it has parametric EQ. Given the 1.6 as I've heard it go down to about 40Hz, you might want to have a lower than 45hz cutoff for the sub.

    I believe I talked to a Velodyne rep here in England at an audio show and he recommended line level rather than speaker level. To be honest, I doubt there's any difference between the two. But if you use line level for the sub and are not using an int amp for your 2 main channels, you'll need either two pre amp outputs on your pre amp or a a couple y splitters to be able to connect the sub.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I talked to the main designer at the Velodyne corp a few weeks ago and asked him the best set up with my Magnepans for 2ch music and he said that for the best results that I should hook up the sub to my power amp into the speaker level inputs on the sub. He stated that he has Magnepans and thats the way he runs his. He also tried to steer me away from the DD and suggested I go with the Optimum sub. He felt it was just as fast and that there was no need to spend the extra cash for the DD. I was surprised at his answer and I had a lot of respect for his honesty.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  18. #18
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I'm curious what the rationale for using the sub's high-level inputs is? I've tried it on a variety of subs and sometimes the variable crossover works better, but otherwise I've heard no material difference. My old HSU Research sub recommended it at the time too...I found a lot more benefit using the steeper crossover in the receiver. If your processor has a crossover, it's usually 4th order these days, a lot of sub amps still have 2nd order crossovers. This makes it painfully difficult to properly integrate in a stereo without some additional work.

  19. #19
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    Blackraven will be running his sub on his 2 channel system so no processors here if I'm correct..

  20. #20
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Blackraven will be running his sub on his 2 channel system so no processors here if I'm correct..
    Yeah, but if you follow this thread, some companies that offer both connections are recommending one over the other..just curious as to why, and what factors in the sub's plate amp make the high-level perform better? Could be a simple tweak for a lot of people...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Yeah, but if you follow this thread, some companies that offer both connections are recommending one over the other..just curious as to why, and what factors in the sub's plate amp make the high-level perform better? Could be a simple tweak for a lot of people...
    At the same show I talked to the Velodyne rep, I also had the chance to enter the MJ Acoustics room which boasted their full line of subs. They use the same dual input on their subs and I talked to one of their guys who explained it to me, problem is it was never clear in my head... I believe it's for practicality reasons, when you're running both HT and stereo setups and you want your sub connected for both systems. You can independently tweak the sub for both indinvidual inputs, if that makes any sense.
    Frankly i don't think one method of connection or the other makes a big difference. REL says it's preferable to use high level because the subs receives the 'exact same info' as the speaker does. Yeah, why not...

    MJ had two of their flagship 18" sub running with an HT system using a Sim projector ona massive screen. It was pretty sweet to hear them on bass heavy passages from X men, War of the worlds and other films.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I tend to believe that it probably does not make a difference how you hook up the sub, but my 2ch Van Alstine preamp does not have bass management and I don't really want to limit the main speakers, so using the speaker level inputs for the sub works for me. I should be able to use it for HT use as well with the line level inputs connected to my Adcom AVR, but I still have a Velodyne CH-8 sub that I'm using for that that does a great job for HT.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  23. #23
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I think I just may have found my sub
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....L-Brittania-B3

    http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b3.htm

    I'm going to Audio Perfection in Minneapolis this weekend to give it a listen. I last heard the B2 2 years ago and it was awesome.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  24. #24
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    It's going to be hard to have a smooth response without somekind of EQ. That's why my vote still goes to the DD10, but i understand your attraction for the Rel.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Yep, I agree with you AA. The eq with the DD's is very attractive and it still win me over. I'm going to listen to the REL's and the ML Grotto this weekend. I have to find a Velodyne DD here in the twin cities. My Magnepan dealer swears by the REL's. I also found a used REL Strata III for $900 which may be better than the B3 since its non ported.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

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