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  1. #1
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    Which Subwoofer with Paradigm Studio 100s $500 limit

    My current setup is:
    Paradigm Reference Studio 100s v.2 (39hz - 22k)
    Onkyo 797 Receiver (100w/channel was a $800 unit from 5 years ago to give an idea)

    Room is 12x14 (7.5ft ceiling)
    ^ Don't let the small room size limit my choice too much, I'm planning on moving in the next year or two


    I like to listen to music, and watch some movies.

    Budget is $500

  2. #2
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    Many people come here and list a budget and then gradually raise it.
    That makes it difficult as many will try to get you up several hundred dollars or more.

    I'll list several choices within your budget and then several slightly over your budget. Note that these are all online factory direct to buyer companies and there should be no sales tax but some shipping costs. I recommend you spend some time at these websites reading the reviews linked about models listed below or the model just above or just below for general info on the companies lines of subs. The models slightly over your budget are well worth the extra $50-$200 dollars and that is why I list them.

    From what I can tell about your 5 year old Onkyo, it is a THX certified receiver which is good news in that it crosses over to the sub at 80Hz which is just what I would recommend with all these subs and your Paradigm's. (others might recommend lower but you have only one choice on your 797 which is the THX recommendation of 80Hz....don't run your Paradigm's "full range" but as "small"...let the sub handle from 80Hz down by itself for the most defined bass).

    $500 and under

    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmcompact.html

    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html

    $500-$700

    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html

    http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html (the photo of the LFM subs does not clearly show the plexiglass top...go to my photo gallery for a better photo)

    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html

    http://av123.com/component/page,shop...art/Itemid,37/

    There are a lot of choices here. Just above your budget at $549 there are two box type subs and one cylinder sub which are excellent choices. Look them over and then maybe you can narrow them down along with subs mentioned by other posters. These are all fairly large size subs and relatively heavy, both good indicators. A large box, all things being equal, offers the best price/performance as a sub needs a reasonably large enclosure to play loud, low and with low distortion. The little mini cube type subs are impressive for their size but expensive comparatively. They are a good choice only if you are space limited.

    RR6

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    From what I can tell about your 5 year old Onkyo, it is a THX certified receiver which is good news in that it crosses over to the sub at 80Hz which is just what I would recommend with all these subs and your Paradigm's. (others might recommend lower but you have only one choice on your 797 which is the THX recommendation of 80Hz....don't run your Paradigm's "full range" but as "small"...let the sub handle from 80Hz down by itself for the most defined bass).
    Thanks for that in depth reply! I just downloaded the manual and confirmed your thoughts.

    Tip:
    When setting the speaker size in the Speaker Config sub-menu, use
    the guidelines given below.
    Small: Frequencies of the channel you are setting lower than 80
    Hz will be output from the subwoofer. If there is no subwoofer,
    then the output will be from the left and right front speakers. (Set
    all speakers for THX speaker systems to “small.”)
    What do you think about this subwoofer (yes, it is $100 out of my price range )
    Dayton 12" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer Kit
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-762

    My biggest concern is that often people go for the 15", I'm not sure it's worth spending $600 on the 12" if I could wait and spend $800 on the 15" (500w vs 1,000w)

  4. #4
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    Btw, would getting a Subwoofer with it crossed over a 80hz make the bottom (2) 8" drivers in my L/R channels useless and idle?

    Would be a great shame to turn my Studio 100s into Studio 20s

  5. #5
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    If you're ok with designing your own box (a little DIY), I would highly recommend these servo-controlled subwoofers from www.rythmikaudio.com
    A couple members here own the Titanic subs and I have heard positively about them.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mademperor
    Btw, would getting a Subwoofer with it crossed over a 80hz make the bottom (2) 8" drivers in my L/R channels useless and idle?

    Would be a great shame to turn my Studio 100s into Studio 20s
    Yeah pretty much. They wouldn't quite be Studio 20's because you still have all that cabinet available to your midbass driver, but crossing them over would pretty much prevent any low end from coming out of the 100's. That's why I saved $1000 and went with the Studio 40's

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    Yeah pretty much. They wouldn't quite be Studio 20's because you still have all that cabinet available to your midbass driver, but crossing them over would pretty much prevent any low end from coming out of the 100's. That's why I saved $1000 and went with the Studio 40's
    Good thing I only paid $1,000 USD for them back when the exchange rate was good and I was able to drive a deal home (v2)


    Would you guys and gals suggest the Dayton 15" or Dayton 12"

    Price is often <$200 and you get double watts and bigger driver/enclosure.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    If you're just using those Studio 100s in a two-channel configuration, I would actually start by tinkering with the speaker placement and seating arrangement (i.e., pushing the speakers closer to the corners for added bass reinforcement, moving the sofa/chair, etc.).

    If you perceive any shortcomings in the bass, those could actually go away by simply rearranging the speaker and/or seating location. This is because the low frequency waves are long enough to interact and create peaks and cancellations at different frequencies. And these peaks and cancellations will differ depending on where you are seated, and where the speakers are placed.

    In general, the bass you get on the Studio 100s will already come very close to the limits of what a $500 subwoofer can deliver (none of the ones I'm familiar with can go below 20 Hz, and your Studio 100s already have an in-room bass extension that goes well below the anecholic rating of 39 Hz). Adding a subwoofer to the mix can actually make the bass sound much worse if it's not carefully placed and setup for the room acoustics.

    Your room dimensions are already borderline for a large ported sub, because the room's small enough to create multiple frequency interactions. These interactions can either nullify much of the bass response from the subwoofer or create boomy peaks that make the bass unlistenable. With a sub in your room, I would recommend that you look into room treatments such as corner bass traps, or a parametric equalizer. Using a parametric EQ with my sub, it dramatically flattened out the response curve (I was getting frequency peaks well in excess of +10 db) and made the bass sound much better.

    A parametric EQ will set you back at least another $100 for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, while you will also want to get a SPL meter (the Radio Shack analog model sells for around $40, when you can find it) and a test CD with low frequency tones. IMO, those tools can make a subwoofer at just about any price range sound worthwhile. Without any attention paid to the setup, placement, room acoustics, etc., a $500 sub would be a waste of money with your speakers.
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  9. #9
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mademperor
    Good thing I only paid $1,000 USD for them back when the exchange rate was good and I was able to drive a deal home (v2)


    Would you guys and gals suggest the Dayton 15" or Dayton 12"

    Price is often <$200 and you get double watts and bigger driver/enclosure.
    The Dayton kits cost a lot more than $200. The Titanic models are a great option if you want a sealed sub (which I would recommend for a room of your size). You should also look into other sealed subwoofer options from Rocket, Martin Logan (the Dynamo sub sells for $500), REL, B&W, and Atlantic Technology.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    The Dayton kits cost a lot more than $200. The Titanic models are a great option if you want a sealed sub (which I would recommend for a room of your size). You should also look into other sealed subwoofer options from Rocket, Martin Logan (the Dynamo sub sells for $500), REL, B&W, and Atlantic Technology.
    $200 more then the 12"

    I was already planning on getting a BFD. So the question becomes 12" 500w or 15" 1,000w for $200 more

    I know I probably won't need the 15 in my current room, but I don't want to regret not getting it for later on in life.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mademperor
    $200 more then the 12"

    I was already planning on getting a BFD. So the question becomes 12" 500w or 15" 1,000w for $200 more

    I know I probably won't need the 15 in my current room, but I don't want to regret not getting it for later on in life.
    Be careful in that presumption because any sub that goes sub-20 Hz in a room of your size can produce an overpowering amount of bass. I guess that it can work okay for you, given that the Titanic kits are sealed designs and have a more gradual dropoff at the low end. Given that you intend to get the BFD (I'd recommend that you order it at the same time as the sub, so you're not stuck without it for a long time), you could always dial down any unpleasant lows.
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  12. #12
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    I took your comment to heart about moving and thus did not limit my choices to your current smaller room.

    I would look carefully at the subs I listed and then at the Dayton subs. Compare the enclosure size and weights (why doesn't PE show weights on the subs?). You'll notice that the 12" and 15" Dayton sub are rather small enclosures for these size drivers. Although they are not mini subs they are certainly not full size subs. A 15" driver in a box slightly larger than 19" cube is rather minimal. This makes them use compromises to attempt to match the performance of more conventional subs (a popular current fad is to offer subs of smaller size enclousres). These smaller subs use larger magnets, extra long excursion drivers and high power amps to try and compensate for the smaller box. Hence the relatively high wattage amps in these two subs.

    I'm not saying these are not good subs, they are. However, they will not play as low, loud and with as little distortion as the subs from AV123, HSU, SVS and Outlaw. For example, compare the Dayton 15" sub ($749) with the 15" sub from AV123 ($699). Dayton = 7087 cu inches, AV123 = 9737 cu inches. The AV123 sub is about 38% larger in enclosure size and weighs 105 lbs. I don't know the weight of the Dayton sub but it has a 1000 watt amp and the AV123 model MFW-15 has a 350 watt amp. I can assure you the MFW-15 is a superior performer.

    Compare the Dayton 12" sub ($600) with the HSU 12" VTF-2 MK3 ($549). Dayton = 4985 cu inches/500 watts. HSU = 7590 cu inches/250 watts/ 80 lbs. The HSU enclosure is about 52% larger. Again the HSU is IMO the better performing sub.

    The Paradigm RS 100 is a very fine speaker with an already very good bass response. I would not match it with anything but an excellent quality sub.

    RR6

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    I took your comment to heart about moving and thus did not limit my choices to your current smaller room.

    I would look carefully at the subs I listed and then at the Dayton subs. Compare the enclosure size and weights (why doesn't PE show weights on the subs?). You'll notice that the 12" and 15" Dayton sub are rather small enclosures for these size drivers. Although they are not mini subs they are certainly not full size subs. A 15" driver in a box slightly larger than 19" cube is rather minimal. This makes them use compromises to attempt to match the performance of more conventional subs (a popular current fad is to offer subs of smaller size enclousres). These smaller subs use larger magnets, extra long excursion drivers and high power amps to try and compensate for the smaller box. Hence the relatively high wattage amps in these two subs.

    I'm not saying these are not good subs, they are. However, they will not play as low, loud and with as little distortion as the subs from AV123, HSU, SVS and Outlaw. For example, compare the Dayton 15" sub ($749) with the 15" sub from AV123 ($699). Dayton = 7087 cu inches, AV123 = 9737 cu inches. The AV123 sub is about 38% larger in enclosure size and weighs 105 lbs. I don't know the weight of the Dayton sub but it has a 1000 watt amp and the AV123 model MFW-15 has a 350 watt amp. I can assure you the MFW-15 is a superior performer.

    Compare the Dayton 12" sub ($600) with the HSU 12" VTF-2 MK3 ($549). Dayton = 4985 cu inches/500 watts. HSU = 7590 cu inches/250 watts/ 80 lbs. The HSU enclosure is about 52% larger. Again the HSU is IMO the better performing sub
    Apples and oranges.

    The Dayton subs are sealed box designs, while the other ones that you mentioned are ported. Ported subs use a larger enclosure by design, but that does not make them inherently superior performers. A ported design will provide higher peak output with less power, and a well designed ported sub can also provide a relatively linear bass response. But, the bass extension is limited unless the sub uses a large enclosure, and sealed subs have quicker transient response which subjectively makes them more "musical."

    A sealed sub gives you a totally different response curve, and room interaction. With a sealed sub, you don't need as large an enclosure to get deep bass. The tradeoff with a sealed sub is that the low end dropoff begins sooner. But, that tapering off occurs at a more gradual rate, so in a smaller room, a sealed sub can actually produce more usable bass in the low frequencies. In general, sealed subs are more compatible with small rooms because the low end drop off occurs at roughly the same rate as the boundary reinforcement caused by the room dimensions. The smaller the room, the higher the frequency that the boundary reinforcement begins.
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  14. #14
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    Your general comments were more true some years ago. A lot has changed in the improved designs of ported subs. The non-musical tag on ported subs is simply no longer true IMO but seems to have a life of its own like plasma burn-in.

    In a review by Audioholics on the Dayton 15" sealed sub they said and I quote:

    ....."Limited Low end frequency extension"

    ....."The advantage of the large 15 inch woofer is not low end in this case but a lot of air movement."

    ....."Bass Extension - 3 stars"

    ..... "the frequency response itself is not very impressive but everything above 100 Hz should be ignored and the roll off down from 60 Hz is typical of a sealed box design"

    In a review of the HSU VTF-1 ($499), that is a 10" model below the VTF-2 MK3 I compared to the Dayton 12" sub Audioholics said and I qoute:

    ....."Musical.....Actual deep bass for a budget"

    ....."A lot of sub for the price"

    ....."fit the bill of anyone looking for musicality at this price range"

    ....."Bass Extension - 4 stars"

    Comparing here a 10" ported sub and the Dayton 15" sealed sub. He wants a sub that will be good in a larger room after he moves. The Dayton is simply a loud sub at higher frequencies. His Paradigm mains already fit that description. He needs a sub that plays low, flat, loud and with low distortion.

    My comments about reduced sized subs is generally true. Although I wouldn't consider the Dayton subs mini or micro they are certainly on the small side and their lack of low bass extension shows. Look at the very small Sunfire mini cube sub with its 2700 watt amp that is easily outperformed by large conventional subs with amps well below the 500 watt range.

    One of the companies I admire although I choose another brand sub due to aesthetic reasons on their cylindrical sub is SVS. In talking about their own smaller sized sealed sub, SB-12 Plus, they state and I quote:

    ....."It's really difficult to make a really worthy small sub. Few on the market are both affordable and good (and there are plenty which are both very expensive, yet still not genuine subwoofers)."

    ....."any "micro" subwoofer is inherently a bit of a compromise, from the standpoint of physics"

    ....."if you can "afford" one of our bigger subs... from the standpoint of the larger floor space requirement ... by all means, consider something of a similar price class, such as the PB12-Plus, or even one that's less expensive like the (large) new PB12-NSD."

    ....." If you need room rattling power, the ultimate depth, AND want a small footprint too? Then our exclusive space-saving Powered Cylinder subs should be on your short list to evaluate. Few brands will be honest about this point: "size matters" ... with subwoofers. Even if perfectly designed, no truly small sub like the SB12-Plus will compete with an equally well-designed large subwoofer (particularly if it's one of our super-efficient vented subwoofers such as those mentioned just above). Physics is an unforgiving master."

    Size Matters With Subwoofers

    RR6
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 12-30-2008 at 04:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Your genral comments were true some years ago. A lot has changed in the improved designs of ported subs. The non-musical tag on ported subs is simply no longer true IMO but seems to have a life of its own like plasma burn-in.
    Where do I say that ported subs are non-musical? The transient response on a sealed sub is inherently faster when using an identical driver compared to a ported sub, but that's not the only relevant facet of performance. I've heard plenty of decent sounding ported subs, and I think that accounting for the room acoustics is far more important than any differences between ported and sealed designs. I'll gladly take an EQ'd ported sub in a treated room over an unEQ'd sealed sub in an untreated room.

    My post is not a slam on ported subs, but rather a generalization of the advantages and tradeoffs of that particular design. Both designs have advantages and disadvantages, but ported subs have more variables to account for. Keep in mind that you were trying to connect the enclosure volume with performance, and I'm simply pointing out that larger enclosure size is an inherent design necessity with ported subs. Comparing apples to apples (i.e., same driver, same amp), a sealed sub will achieve comparable bass extension using a smaller enclosure.

    While ported subs have greatly improved from a decade ago, you still have the same basic design characteristics -- frequency response curve that depends on a precise relationship between the vent area and enclosure volume, a more potentially linear response curve with a steep dropoff in the low frequencies below the tuned frequency, higher efficiency, etc. That has not changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    In a review by Audioholics on the Dayton 15" sealed sub they said and I quote:

    ....."Limited Low end frequency extension"
    I don't see what they mean by "limited" given that their in-room measurements go well below 20 Hz. In a small or even medium sized room, the boundary reinforcement will boost the low frequency extension quite a bit. (IIRC, with a 20' wall dimension, the boundary reinforcement begins around 40 Hz, and shorter room dimensions will raise that frequency) A ported sub's anecholic frequency response can be more linear (if it was designed to be as flat as possible), but a linear anecholic response is not necessarily a good thing if the room dimensions wind up creating boomy bass in the lower region around the sub's tuned port frequency.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Comparing here a 10" ported sub and the Dayton 15" sealed sub. He wants a sub that will be good in a larger room after he moves. The Dayton is simply a loud sub at higher frequencies. His Paradigm mains already fit that description. He needs a sub that plays low, flat, loud and with low distortion.
    The Dayton review also notes a room-induced cancellation at 38 Hz, which affected the frequency response. The reviews for the Hsu and Dayton subs were conducted in different rooms, using different reviewers, and different measurement software. Given the comments from people on this board who own the Dayton Titanic subs, I don't get the sense at all that they are simply a "loud sub at higher frequencies." Paired with a BFD for EQing, they've measured their Titanics below 20 Hz with a linear in-room response up to that point (this is relevant since the OP intends to use a BFD), and make note of how tight and deep the bass on the Titanic is. It's not all about quantity, there's also a quality element to consider as well.

    The reason why some people note the "musical" quality of sealed subs is precisely because of the more gradual dropoff at the lower end. Reviewers such as Richard Hardesty and Shane Buettner have noted that the sharp dropoff below the tuned port frequency on ported subs can create a ringing effect (when the signal dips below the tuned frequency, the driver loses the dampening back pressure from the port and movement becomes uncontrolled). The Hsu subs can emulate the more graduated response curve using an EQ switch and port plugs, but that also reduces the output and does not affect the transient response because at least one vent remains open.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    My comments about reduced sized subs is generally true. Although I wouldn't consider the Dayton subs mini or micro they are certainly on the small side and their lack of low bass extension shows. Look at the very small Sunfire mini cube sub with its 2700 watt amp that is easily outperformed by large conventional subs with amps well below the 500 watt range.
    Your comments are only true if you're comparing sealed subs against other sealed subs, or ported subs with other ported subs -- since I've already noted that a sealed sub does not need as large an enclosure to achieve comparable bass extension to a ported sub. What parameter are you using to define "performance"? And what do you define as a "conventional" sub, given that there are plenty of sealed, ported, and bandbox models on the market? Most of them use dynamic drivers and plate amps -- the enclosure is the only component that doesn't transplant from one design to another.

    The Sunfire Signature sub has just as much peak output and bass extension as much larger subs, but the tradeoff is higher distortion and more wattage needed. If you take a large sealed sub like the Paradigm Servo 15, you get the high peak output and deep bass extension, but with greater efficiency and lower distortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Size Matters With Subwoofers
    Yep, but like I said, sealed subs and ported subs are entirely different designs, and the enclosure size is not the sole determinant of performance.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 12-30-2008 at 06:57 PM.
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  16. #16
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    What happens if you plug up the port of a sub enclosure?

  17. #17
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    Sorry Wooch, I didn't want to get into a line by line debate. Just wanted to reinforce my opinion that the Dayton sub was not comparable in performance to the subs I mentioned at the same price level. I'm only saying that the performance in subs is much more than sealed versus ported. I do agree 100% with you about the affects of the room acoustics.

    You ask:

    "Where do I say that ported subs are non-musical?" here is where:

    "sealed subs have quicker transient response which subjectively makes them more "musical." (OK, so you didn't say they weren't musical but that sealed subs were more musical...sort of symantics here don't you think?...there are a lot of issues that determine whether a sub is more or less musical)

    You mention:

    "I don't see what they mean by "limited" given that their in-room measurements go well below 20 Hz."

    OK, now we are into serious symantics here. The graph shows that the response of the 15" Dayton at:

    60Hz at 88dB
    50Hz at 86dB
    40Hz at 83dB
    30Hz at 78dB ..... down 10dB's below 60Hz
    25Hz at 75dB
    20Hz at 66dB ..... down 22dB's below 60Hz


    You state that "their in-room measurements go well below 20 Hz."

    Oh yeah, they go well below 20Hz as like down to 15Hz. There is only one problem. At 15Hz the response is down 31 decibels! Now do you see why they make the statement that the Dayton "has a limited low end extension" ???

    SVS is a company that makes both sealed and ported subs. Their statements stands IMO as I quoted.

    BTW, when Audioholics tested the VTF-3 Mk3 (at max extension mode), a much closer model to the Dayton 12" and 15" subs they found that the response was:

    60Hz at 89dB's
    20Hz at 86dB's (down 3dB's below 60Hz)
    15Hz at 86dB's

    Note that they gave it a 5 star rating for "bass extension" versus the 3 star rating for the Dayton.

    You also mention:

    "this is relevant since the OP intends to use a BFD"

    I hope you are not suggesting that he try to compensate by boosting the output of the Dayton by 22dB's at 20Hz!!!

    The subs from these two brands are not even in the same ballpark. (I rest my case )

    RR6


    "A simple near field measurement gives the response fairly accurate up to 300 Hz." (see graph below of the Dayton 15" sub by Audioholics ... looks like my favorite ski slope))
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Which Subwoofer with Paradigm Studio 100s 0 limit-dayton.jpg  
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 12-31-2008 at 06:01 AM.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    "A simple near field measurement gives the response fairly accurate up to 300 Hz." (see graph below of the Dayton 15" sub by Audioholics ... looks like my favorite ski slope))
    Brilliant!

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    "Where do I say that ported subs are non-musical?" here is where:

    "sealed subs have quicker transient response which subjectively makes them more "musical." (OK, so you didn't say they weren't musical but that sealed subs were more musical...sort of symantics here don't you think?...there are a lot of issues that determine whether a sub is more or less musical)
    And I always qualified that statement not to imply that I was making a universal assertion, since not everybody agrees on that point. Saying that a sealed sub to "some" people is "more" musical does not mean that a ported sub is "non" musical to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    OK, now we are into serious symantics here. The graph shows that the response of the 15" Dayton at:

    60Hz at 88dB
    50Hz at 86dB
    40Hz at 83dB
    30Hz at 78dB ..... down 10dB's below 60Hz
    25Hz at 75dB
    20Hz at 66dB ..... down 22dB's below 60Hz


    You state that "their in-room measurements go well below 20 Hz."

    Oh yeah, they go well below 20Hz as like down to 15Hz. There is only one problem. At 15Hz the response is down 31 decibels! Now do you see why they make the statement that the Dayton "has a limited low end extension" ???
    And note how much I wrote about in-room versus anecholic. That graph that you posted is a near-field measurement, which is quasi-anecholic and different from what you hear at the seated position after the sound waves have interacted with the room. Nobody listens to a subwoofer inside an anecholic chamber, so the room effects are very relevant.

    With the room dimensions that the OP mentioned, the boundary reinforcement would probably begin somewhere around 60 Hz. This boundary reinforcement IIRC is about +12 db/octave, which happens to also be the natural rolloff for a sealed sub. This means that the in-room response at 30 Hz will actually be +2 db, and around -1 db at 20 Hz. Naturally, this will vary depending on where the cancellations and peaks occur, but you can see that in a small to medium sized room, the Dayton would actually output a more accurate bass curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    BTW, when Audioholics tested the VTF-3 Mk3 (at max extension mode), a much closer model to the Dayton 12" and 15" subs they found that the response was:

    60Hz at 89dB's
    20Hz at 86dB's (down 3dB's below 60Hz)
    15Hz at 86dB's

    Note that they gave it a 5 star rating for "bass extension" versus the 3 star rating for the Dayton.
    Again, a near-field measurement doesn't take the room effects into account. Assuming that this sub gets installed into a room with 12' to 15' wall dimensions, this "flat" response curve under quasi-anecholic conditions can suddenly turn into +21 db at 15 Hz. The room gain is why I questioned the need for a subwoofer in the first place, given that a Studio 100's in-room bass extension is much deeper than the rated 39 Hz on the anecholic frequency response.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner
    I hope you are not suggesting that he try to compensate by boosting the output of the Dayton by 22dB's at 20Hz!!!
    Nope, I am suggesting that he may need to compensate for the in-room response of the Hsu by dialing the output DOWN by ~ -20 db at 15 Hz.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    The subs from these two brands are not even in the same ballpark. (I rest my case )
    Yes, one is better suited to small to medium sized rooms, while the other is best served in larger spaces.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 12-31-2008 at 03:34 PM.
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