Speaker Search List

[manlystanley]

I appreciate all the help that you all have give to me in my quest for musical nirvana. As I try out different speakers, I am finding out the following about my personal tastes:

-- I need to listen to a speaker for days in my own listening room with my own equipment to determine if I like it or not.

-- Frenchy sent me a really insightful private mail giving me some concrete suggestions as how to proceed in my audio quest. That triggered me to think and to finally come to the conclusion that I don't really know what my personal tastes are. I know that I like things like:

-- Lots of bass, not bright treble, good imaging and tend to lean to the 'warm side of things'. But, I tend to not have a real defined sense of what I really like. this then allows to to like something one day and then think it's just so-so the next.

-- Because it takes me so long to make up my mind, my upgrade strategy is to: buy used at a really good price, then if I need to I can resell.

************************************

So, I've done a litle bit of research (based on your all feedback) and my plan is to look for used speakers on Audiogon or CL. I'd like to have speakers that are:

-- no more then 3 years old, floor standing, and with: good bass, good imaging, not to bright of treble.
-- Price range is around: $1,000 - $2,500.
-- From a major manufacture that would allow me to have a name draw if I need to resell.


So, the ones I'm looking at are (and I'd appreciate you commenting/adding to this list) are:

Paradigm: Signature, Studio series.
PSB: Synchrony (one and two), Imagine T.
Monitor Audio: RX8, GS60
Era: D10, D14
Sonist: Concerto 3, Recital 3

Any feedback or suggestions is most appreciated.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Mr Peabody]

Paradigm and Monitor Audio will never be described as warm by any one who has actually heard them. Not that they are bad by no means, just not "warm".

The Sonas Faber would be your best bet from feedback of others. I haven't heard them.

You might consider Dynaudio Focus or Contour series. I wouldn't call them warm either but I do consider them as neutral as it gets and they will sound warmer with warm electronics. I have heard Dyn through many of amps and genres of music and they do all well. If the amp is up to it the Dyn's have excellent bass response.

[harley .guy07]

I think this is the second time that Paradigm and Monitor Audio has been put in this warm category which is not the case. They are both great speakers and different models from both companies sound good and are much sought after and I even own Monitor 7's but I have extensively modified mine so they have the midrange that I love the monitor 7 for without the bright ass tweeters that kill their sound. I have said this before that from me being a shop manager and a speaker repair tech for the same company that I think you need to look in the Dynaudio,Usher, or something that uses Scan Speak drivers direction because like I have said before typically soft dome tweeters and paper cone hybrids or well made poly/mica or blended poly like the dyanudio's are going to have detail but also has the warmth that you are looking for. I know this is a driver stereotype and is not always the case but I have done extensive research in drivers and in my opinion a well built soft dome tweeter will give you good detail while remaining smooth enough to listen to for hours without fatigue. I am just saying this because I think you are looking at speaker brands that a lot of people have on this site and missing some of the non fatiguing offerings from some of the other companies that might be right what you are looking for. I know I would not be still listening to my Paradigm's if I would not have taken the time and had the experience to modify them to vastly improve them. But as well most people do not know how to do this properly and would most likely make things worse instead of better.

[RGA]

I don't think it will take you days when you come across the right speakers - it can take a a single track or a few piano bars to know if something is on the right track and "has it" or not.

You like a speaker with bass and not a bright treble - In my opinion those are two things that are critically important for long term enjoyment. I'd start by avoiding loudspeakers with metal tweeters in general - there are exceptions but to get away from bright edgy treble metal tweeters in the sub $4k price range I'd be avoiding.

Start with designs that have been selling for 20+ years. Not all are great but chances are that if it has been selling for long periods there is some reason. Harbeth, Audio Note, Quad (pricey), Tannoy. I don't mean companies that have been around for 20+ years I mean specific model numbers. My speakers have been selling for over 25 years for example - Tannoy Prestige line speakers have pretty much been selling for 40-60 years, Harbeth has been selling very similar models - of course they all have some tweaks here or there to make them better but they're proven.

I would not actually buy an overly warm speaker - they can end up sounding a little "blah" after awhile.

Speakers that are similar to the golden rule box - The Trenner and Fieldl, Harbeth, Audio Notes have a similar sound in some respects - non fatiguing but open treble band - lossy cabinets to get away from the "audibility" of the box getting in the way, outstanding bass depth and weight, and easy to drive for future tube amps. The Trenner and Fiedl's RA Box is one of the best loudspeakers I have ever had the fortune to audition http://www.trenner-friedl.com/index2...=ra&sprache=en unfortunately they sell for $25,000.
Audio Note E http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...an/index5.html
Harbeth M40.1 but it costs a lot more than the AN E - the same reviewer reviewed both and made comparisons http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...har/index.html

Also Check out Acoustic Zen - you get your ribbon tweeter and nice deep bass and nice looks and can be run off of tubes. I liked them a lot at CES driven by Tri amplification - bit pricey but maybe check out their lower models as they may have a house sound with a little less bass response - but most everything with a dynamic woofer will have more bass than the 1.6. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue46/crescendo.htm These are $14k but the lower priced Adagio floorstander is around $4,500 so if it sounds anywhere near as good then it could be everything you desire.

Nice ribbon tweeter, transmission line for deeper bass, and horn loaded to retain ease of drive http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue31/adagio.htm

[poppachubby]

Stan, I think you'd be better to have a speaker that can output a warm amp or source, rather than a warm speaker. This will also leave you with a bit of room to play. Something neutral would probably be best.

Anyhow, I've heard the PSB Imagine and they kick. I've also heard a few different models of Tannoy, none of which I can specify, but not one sounded bad. Tannoy is a fantastic brand that holds resale well.

There are alot of choices. You can ask for suggestions but this might just make matters worse. Start with your list, and go from there.

[manlystanley]

You might consider Dynaudio Focus or Contour series. I wouldn't call them warm either but I do consider them as neutral as it gets and they will sound warmer with warm electronics. I have heard Dyn through many of amps and genres of music and they do all well. If the amp is up to it the Dyn's have excellent bass response.

Here is a review of the Dynaudio Contour series:
http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/S...rs/130898.html

One of the comments of the review was: "So my conclusion is that the S3.4 like detailed and powerful amps. Those that sound a bit too bright with B&W's might be just right for the new Dynaudio Contour.". That sounds like my setup exactly.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll remember it this time: Dynaudio and Sonus Faber. Both of these speakers I like what I've read and I like the looks as well.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

...
The Sonas Faber would be your best bet from feedback of others. I haven't heard them.
...

I have ... the Cermona Monitor M's. I'd say they are dubious value, new, for north of $6k with stands.

IMO, my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's trashed them in every department. But, hey, maybe I'm biased to planars.

[harley .guy07]

It sounds like everything being said makes sense and you need to evaluate what type of sound you want. I went down that path a few years ago and tried and tried to find out why certain music or songs were bright sounding and some songs or albums I did not like but I found out it was brightness and fatigue that killed my like for some music and songs and not the songs themselves. My Paradigms were just to bright and fatiguing to listen to certain types of music or songs and it took me to use my ability to understand drivers and crossover design to basically rebuild my speakers and keep the good parts of them, ditch the rest and make a speaker out of them that I now enjoy. I listen to music and songs that I could not even try to before and enjoy the hell out of it. RGA is right about the metal tweeter thing in my opinion. Stay away from them, unless they are very expensive designs that the company engineered the natural brightness out of them but those units that I have seen are in speakers of very high price and I would still be standoffish of them. I have been around speaker drivers for a long time and textile or soft dome tweeters made of silk or fabric if designed well are much better at bringing out the natural details of music without the bright overtones of metal. Even cymbals of drums which are made of metal seem to have a better presence on soft dome tweeters. I would keep that in mind when looking for speakers and like me the first time you hear a good soft dome tweeter in a well built speaker matted with a good midbass driver and excellent crossover design you will know exactly what we are all talking about. And you might even find peace in your search for speakers that love and can live with and listen to for hours on end.

[Ajani]

I think the best option is to go for neutral speakers... Too bright may irritate your ears in longer listening sessions and too warm (dull?) may put you to sleep and end up being an equal waste of money...

My choice in this price range would be Revel Performa F32 or M22....

[koven]

I think there's a lot of good advice in here already... I actually went through/am going through a similar process.... just like you, I like "warm" speakers. I sold my B&W 805's because the metal tweeter bothered me after extended listening. It was also lacking a bit in the low end. Thus, like someone mentioned already, stay away from metal tweeters. I also agree w/ the fact that Paradigms and Monitor Audios are "brighter" sounding speakers, I would stay away from those.

If you want something that's really really (maybe even too much) warm, I would recommend Joseph Audio, although they don't pop up too often on the Audiogon market.

If you want something safe w/ good resell value, I would also recommend Sonus Faber.. and also Proac's.

** HOWEVER **
If you want to take a chance, I would HIGHLY recommend the Fritz Carbon 7's. You should give Fritz a call and explain your situation. I'm sure he'd be willing to ship a demo pair out to you. Judging by your preferences, I have a feeling you will absolutely fall in love w/ the Carbon 7's. Just for the record, so far I've tried in my room: Usher X-719, Totem Forest, B&W N805, Proac Response 1.5, Joseph Audio RM7si, and in the past I've also had Paradigm Studio 20's, B&W 685's, and Energy RC30's. Anyway, my point is, I honestly think the Carbon 7's blow ALL of them away with the exception of the Proac Response 1.5's. And the cherry on top? They're only $1750 brand new, yet I prefer them over some $3000+ speakers. It really blows my mind but I feel like I've found a hidden gem. Furthermore, the Scan-Speak drivers he uses in the Carbon 7's are highly praised and widely reviewed, they are also fairly easy to drive and not picky about electronics. Those drivers can even be found on much much more expensive speakers like Wilsons, Vienna Acoustics, Proac, etc.

Anyway, this is starting to sound too much like a sales pitch but I hope you don't take my excitement that way - I have no affiliation to Fritz. I just really wish more people could hear these speakers because they're missing out!

Also, again, this isn't just a blanket recommendation, I honestly think your preferences are similar to mine and that the Carbon 7's will blow your mind, especially at that price.

Here's the website: http://fritzspeakers.com/ --- his contact info is at the bottom. Do yourself a favor and give it a shot, you got nothing to lose! He's an extremely friendly person to chat w/ also, no high pressure sales pitch, just loves to talk speakers. Honestly I was skeptical at first, but I'm so glad I took the risk.

[blackraven]

My vote for used speakers would be Thiels, PSB's, Dyn Audio.

I would also consider changing to a warmer sound amp, preamp, DAC or CDP.
A PS Audio Digilink III DAC has a warmer sound and are easily obtained on the used market. A Marantz SA-8001/8003 will warm things up. A used tube preamp is another way to go. I would certainly see if you could audition a piece in home to see if it improves the sound of your speakers. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

There is a used Van Alstine Tube DAC on A.gon for $650.

[koven]

Good call on Thiels IMO, I totally forgot about them. When I listened to the Magnepans at a local dealer, I also did a quick A/B of Thiel 1.6 and Revel F52.. there was no doubt the Thiel's sounded warmer (and better to me). Actually, now that I think about it, I might go back and try to bring home the Thiel's to demo, I left them w/ a very positive impression. Not so much for the F52's though, they seemed a bit dull sounding and even on the bright side.

[manlystanley]

I think this is the second time that Paradigm and Monitor Audio has been put in this warm category which is not the case. [snip]

Yep, my brain was stuck on these two being warm. Thanks for your patience.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

I think the best option is to go for neutral speakers... Too bright may irritate your ears in longer listening sessions and too warm (dull?) may put you to sleep and end up being an equal waste of money...

My choice in this price range would be Revel Performa F32 or M22....

Good point, that was a concern of mine as well.


Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

[QUOTE=koven
If you want to take a chance, I would HIGHLY recommend the Fritz Carbon 7's. [/QUOTE]

I checked his web site. I'll think about it.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

My vote for used speakers would be Thiels, PSB's, Dyn Audio.
.

Hello BR,
I'll put them on my short list.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Thanks you all very much. Here is my list, in no particular order:

-- PSB
-- Thiel
-- Dynaudio
-- Fritz Carbon 7's
-- Joseph Audio
-- Sonus Faber
-- Revel Performa F32
-- Acoustic Zen
-- Trenner and Fieldl
-- Harbeth
-- Audio Notes
-- Audio Note E
-- Usher
-- something that uses Scan Speak drivers

On Monday, I leave on a two week business trip to the sun and fun capital of the world (E.g. Oklahoma City). I'll have a lot of time to do research. Having this list of speakers (most of which I never heard of before) allows me to broaden my horizons. This will be fun. Thanks so much for your help!

Best Regards,
Stan

[Mr Peabody]

Stan, although I'm not a big B&W fan, Blackraven may have a point about trying a different front end. All of the Denon CD players I've heard have been.... bright for lack of a better description. I would find them fatiguing when listening. You could try adding a DAC and just use the Denon's digital output. I can't stand an overly warm or slow source either. I try to find players that have a natural sound to me. I thoroughly enjoyed my Audio Note DAC. I still have it, just not in my main system. The NAD Master series SACD player has a very good sound. I guess maybe it's warm, I'd say more of a dark sound but I really liked it. You can find those around on special for $1k. You still may end up wanting new speakers but if that 3930 is your source I'd certainly address that before spending a lot of money on new speakers. I've also always found Arcam CD players very good. They tend to be detailed and dynamic.

[mlsstl]

Just curious, what's the deal about "no more than three years old"?

Seems a rather curious and arbitrary cutoff to me, especially given some of the legendary speakers from many years ago that still have people clamoring for them.

[koven]

Thanks you all very much. Here is my list, in no particular order:

-- PSB
-- Thiel
-- Dynaudio
-- Fritz Carbon 7's
-- Joseph Audio
-- Sonus Faber
-- Revel Performa F32
-- Acoustic Zen
-- Trenner and Fieldl
-- Harbeth
-- Audio Notes
-- Audio Note E
-- Usher
-- something that uses Scan Speak drivers

On Monday, I leave on a two week business trip to the sun and fun capital of the world (E.g. Oklahoma City). I'll have a lot of time to do research. Having this list of speakers (most of which I never heard of before) allows me to broaden my horizons. This will be fun. Thanks so much for your help!

Best Regards,
Stan

Just an FYI since I saw the bold, but the Fritz Carbon 7's use top of the line scan speaks w/ series crossover. Also, I wouldn't bother with Revel if you're looking for warm.

[blackraven]

Have fun in Sooner land Stan. I can't think of a more miserable place to live. There was nothing to do there back then but drink and have sex, come to think about it, maybe it wasn't such a bad place after all. I spent 2 months in OKC in my training and almost took a job there. My college girlfriend was from there and my wife is from Tulsa. I went to school at Okie State in Stillwater and lived in OK for 13years.

[Mr Peabody]

AR, a place where even squares can have a ball

[eisforelectronic]

How about Audio Physic?

http://www.audiophysic.de/index_e.html

[manlystanley]

Stan, although I'm not a big B&W fan, Blackraven may have a point about trying a different front end. All of the Denon CD players I've heard have been.... bright for lack of a better description. I would find them fatiguing when listening. You could try adding a DAC and just use the Denon's digital output. I can't stand an overly warm or slow source either. I try to find players that have a natural sound to me. I thoroughly enjoyed my Audio Note DAC. I still have it, just not in my main system. The NAD Master series SACD player has a very good sound. I guess maybe it's warm, I'd say more of a dark sound but I really liked it. You can find those around on special for $1k. You still may end up wanting new speakers but if that 3930 is your source I'd certainly address that before spending a lot of money on new speakers. I've also always found Arcam CD players very good. They tend to be detailed and dynamic.

That's the joy of hanging around you guys, I learn so much. When I finish fixing the Magnepan's I'll do a series listen to both my CD player vs. my turn table. Should a turn table naturally sound warmer?

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Have fun in Sooner land Stan. I can't think of a more miserable place to live. There was nothing to do there back then but drink and have sex, come to think about it, maybe it wasn't such a bad place after all. I spent 2 months in OKC in my training and almost took a job there. My college girlfriend was from there and my wife is from Tulsa. I went to school at Okie State in Stillwater and lived in OK for 13years.

Ahhh..... A fellow sophisticated readneck?? I'm planning on getting me multiple hunks of dead meat (e.g. Steak and Prime Rib). My wife keeps me healthy by cooking lots of whole grain rice and vegitables. It's my duty to make up for lost time with lots of red meat.....


Best Regards,
Stan