Speaker placement

[StevenSurprenant]

I'm going to talk as a Mr. know-it-all, which I'm definitely not, but after seeing many setups, both 2 channel and surround, I've noticed that some people's speakers, mainly the front mains, are improperly set up for the best sound. Keep in mind that many people are constrained by their room dimensions, windows, door openings, and preferences. Ignoring that and thinking in terms of an ideal set up, there are "general" rules to follow for best sound.

First and foremost, the main problem I see is the main speakers are too close together for their listening distance. For best sound, you should sit as far away from each speaker as they are apart, which would be an equilateral triangle. This means that if your speakers are 7 foot apart, you should sit 7 foot from each speaker. Also, the speakers should be toed in and aimed at each ear. What happens when you do this is that the speakers sonically disappear and you become more aware of the recording and soundstage. Nothing is free so the downside of this is that the center image will drift when you move away from the center (sweet spot). This is less of an issue with a surround system with a center channel.

The second mistake is having your speakers against the wall. Moving you speakers away from the front wall will make your soundstage deeper. How deep depends on how far from the wall they are. This doesn't go on ad infinitum, but it certainly helps to move them into the room as far as possible. I suppose that 1/3 of the room depth would be about ideal. The down side is that it changes your bass response. The more they are in the room, the less bass you have (up to a point). Some people move them away from the wall just for this reason.

The last issue is distance from side walls although I think this is the least important of these 3 issues. Side walls create reflections and the closer the speakers are, the stronger the reflections. Reflections create secondary images that mix with the direct sound from the speaker and cause the image to smear. Generally, the best way to tame these reflections is to add sound absorbers or diffusers at the main points of refection relative to your listening position.

There are too many variables to say that these suggestions are ideal for each and every room and type of speaker. As I said, these are general guide lines that might get you in the ball park for further tweaking.

I'm sure most people here know these things, so this post is mainly aimed at newer people who haven't yet been exposed to these ideas. Also, these are not my ideas, they have been published on the net by people that know a great deal more than I.

The main thing to keep in mind is that your room is part of your sound system and proper setup can change a good system into a great system.

I have one question... Are there any "new" people here or am I talking down to everyone? If I am, I apologize. Many of us are here to learn, as I am, but sometimes it's fun to teach what we know.

What prompted this post is that I was repainting my surround room and in the process, I moved my main speakers further apart and the change was dramatic. I knew the rules, but when I set up my system initially, I put aesthetics over function. Since my speakers (magnepan) are made to hang on the wall, moving them meant putting more holes in the wall and repairing the holes where they were before, so it was not a task I was looking forward towards. Anyway, this redecorating was a reminder for me.

[JohnMichael]

I think your suggestion for toe-in is wrong. I think this may be the most speaker dependant issue. A speaker that is designed for very wide dispersion in the highs and flat off axis response would be too hot aimed at your ears. I toe-in just enough for a solid centerfill.

[StevenSurprenant]

I think your suggestion for toe-in is wrong. I think this may be the most speaker dependant issue. A speaker that is designed for very wide dispersion in the highs and flat off axis response would be too hot aimed at your ears. I toe-in just enough for a solid centerfill.

You won't get an argument out of me. Toe in amount all depends on how wide a dispersion your tweeter has. Remember, I was just presenting a general setup. As you have indicated, tweaking is necessary due to room and equipment differences.

The only thing is that you don't want them aimed across your face. Of course if you do, you get a wider sweet spot and a little less focus.

Thanks John.

[JoeE SP9]

IME an equilateral triangle isn't always the best positioning. For dipolar speakers (esl's, Maggies, etc) I've found that a speaker width of ~70% of listening distance works better. Of course less toe in is needed this way. My fronts and rears have a very slight amount of toe in. Dipolar's are even more sensitive to being too close to the front wall. Mine are +4' from the front wall. Proximity to the side walls isn't as critical because of the figure 8 dispersion pattern of dipolars. This also makes sidewall first reflection points less critical.

[StevenSurprenant]

IME an equilateral triangle isn't always the best positioning. For dipolar speakers (esl's, Maggies, etc) I've found that a speaker width of ~70% of listening distance works better. Of course less toe in is needed this way. My fronts and rears have a very slight amount of toe in. Dipolar's are even more sensitive to being too close to the front wall. Mine are +4' from the front wall. Proximity to the side walls isn't as critical because of the figure 8 dispersion pattern of dipolars. This also makes sidewall first reflection points less critical.

Another good point!

When I wrote this post I was thinking about box speakers, but as you brought up, speakers with different radiation patterns need to be positioned differently.

I've owned dipoles most of my life (love them!) From my experience, the distance from the front wall and the distance apart they are is extremely important to how they sound and this is dictated by how far from the speakers I would sit. Get it wrong and the imaging becomes diffuse and hollow sounding. Dipoles have another problem and that is signal cancellation if the direct sound, from the speaker, is 180 degrees out of phase with the reflected sound off the front wall. Of course, the further they are from the front wall, the lower the amplitude of the reflected sound and the lesser it affects the image. I'm sure you know all that, but the point here is that dipoles are a different animal completely. I think they are harder to set up, but once they are, they sound wonderful.

I just want you to know that just owning a particular type of speaker doesn't make me an expert. I consider myself an amateur and I am constantly learning new things.

[lomarica]

I recently got a new salamander set up and my speakers ended up further apart, and the they sounded much much better. Mainly in the imaging. I have 17 feet from speakers to my couch and the speakers now are about 11 feet apart. so that fits the "ideal" setup

[StevenSurprenant]

I think your suggestion for toe-in is wrong.

Your pictures didn't post.

Toe in varies with each speaker. What I suggested was a general starting point.

Think of it this way, the higher frequencies of tweeters begin falling off the more you move off center, some more than others. When you toe in speakers, it's to increase the amount of high frequencies reaching your ears so the speaker sounds more balanced from top to bottom.

Many years ago, I remember speakers that had such limited horizontal dispersion that if you didn't toe the speakers in, you could actually hear a hole on the middle the sound stage. That's an extreme.

The wider the dispersion field is from your speakers, the less toe in you need, or the closer your speakers are to each other, the less toe in you need.

[Feanor]

Your pictures didn't post.

Toe in varies with each speaker. What I suggested was a general starting point.

Think of it this way, the higher frequencies of tweeters begin falling off the more you move off center, some more than others. When you toe in speakers, it's to increase the amount of high frequencies reaching your ears so the speaker sounds more balanced from top to bottom.
...
The wider the dispersion field is from your speakers, the less toe in you need, or the closer your speakers are to each other, the less toe in you need.

Sounds right to me. Toe-in is a method of controlling the tweeter volume since, as you say, response is generally strongest on axis.

It's noteworthy that, for the same reason, no toe-in, (straight ahead), typically increases side wall reflections that weaken the imaging.

[StevenSurprenant]

Sounds right to me. Toe-in is a method of controlling the tweeter volume since, as you say, response is generally strongest on axis.

It's noteworthy that, for the same reason, no toe-in, (straight ahead), typically increases side wall reflections that weaken the imaging.

You might find this interesting...

When I was making my passive crossovers for my DIY speakers, I had one speaker in the living room about 5 foot from a side wall. There was an opening from the kitchen, where I sat at my computer (about 20 feet way), so I could see and hear the speaker. What was interesting was that the image from that single speaker seemed to becoming from about midway between the speaker and the wall, nothing was coming directly from the location of the speaker.

The moral of the story is that side wall reflections play a huge part on how a speaker sounds in a particular room.

[michaelhigh]

I'm going to talk as a Mr. know-it-all, which I'm definitely not, but after seeing many setups, both 2 channel and surround, I've noticed that some people's speakers, mainly the front mains, are improperly set up for the best sound. Keep in mind that many people are constrained by their room dimensions, windows, door openings, and preferences. Ignoring that and thinking in terms of an ideal set up, there are "general" rules to follow for best sound.

First and foremost, the main problem I see is the main speakers are too close together for their listening distance. For best sound, you should sit as far away from each speaker as they are apart, which would be an equilateral triangle. This means that if your speakers are 7 foot apart, you should sit 7 foot from each speaker. Also, the speakers should be toed in and aimed at each ear. What happens when you do this is that the speakers sonically disappear and you become more aware of the recording and soundstage. Nothing is free so the downside of this is that the center image will drift when you move away from the center (sweet spot). This is less of an issue with a surround system with a center channel.

The second mistake is having your speakers against the wall. Moving you speakers away from the front wall will make your soundstage deeper. How deep depends on how far from the wall they are. This doesn't go on ad infinitum, but it certainly helps to move them into the room as far as possible. I suppose that 1/3 of the room depth would be about ideal. The down side is that it changes your bass response. The more they are in the room, the less bass you have (up to a point). Some people move them away from the wall just for this reason.

The last issue is distance from side walls although I think this is the least important of these 3 issues. Side walls create reflections and the closer the speakers are, the stronger the reflections. Reflections create secondary images that mix with the direct sound from the speaker and cause the image to smear. Generally, the best way to tame these reflections is to add sound absorbers or diffusers at the main points of refection relative to your listening position.

There are too many variables to say that these suggestions are ideal for each and every room and type of speaker. As I said, these are general guide lines that might get you in the ball park for further tweaking.

I'm sure most people here know these things, so this post is mainly aimed at newer people who haven't yet been exposed to these ideas. Also, these are not my ideas, they have been published on the net by people that know a great deal more than I.

The main thing to keep in mind is that your room is part of your sound system and proper setup can change a good system into a great system.

I have one question... Are there any "new" people here or am I talking down to everyone? If I am, I apologize. Many of us are here to learn, as I am, but sometimes it's fun to teach what we know.

What prompted this post is that I was repainting my surround room and in the process, I moved my main speakers further apart and the change was dramatic. I knew the rules, but when I set up my system initially, I put aesthetics over function. Since my speakers (magnepan) are made to hang on the wall, moving them meant putting more holes in the wall and repairing the holes where they were before, so it was not a task I was looking forward towards. Anyway, this redecorating was a reminder for me.

I have 2 sets of Heritage Klipsch, Fortes and KG2's. PWK recommended you set them up close to walls, preferably in corners as well, because they utilize a rear-mounted passive radiator that, when placed as suggested, uses the boundaries to produce additional bass response, and they're 98db efficient too. The KG2's are 90.5db efficient as well. So, just like cable discussions, YMMV on any particular opinion about placement. Originally the placement suggested was to face them straight ahead but your suggestion of equilateral triangle always worked for me, and toe-in facing directly at the listener is my preference as well. Remember that preference is in the ears of the beholder.

[manlystanley]

You might find this interesting...

The moral of the story is that side wall reflections play a huge part on how a speaker sounds in a particular room.

I fully agree with this.

I built sound absorbers for my front and side walls in my old house: what huge difference. I brought them to my new house, but this forced house is still a disaster, it will be a while till I can get my listening room all set up.

Best Regards,
Stan

[StevenSurprenant]

So, just like cable discussions, YMMV on any particular opinion about placement. Originally the placement suggested was to face them straight ahead but your suggestion of equilateral triangle always worked for me, and toe-in facing directly at the listener is my preference as well. Remember that preference is in the ears of the beholder.

I totally agree. It's a matter of choice, speaker type, and even room dimensions. There are no hard set rules.

I guess what prompted me to write this in the first place is because I was viewing photos of home systems and I noticed that a great many of them had their speakers up against the wall and too close together to get a decent soundstage. Soundstaging is important to me, but not necessarily to everyone else. Not only that, not all speakers soundstage well, some better than others, some, not at all.

Years past, I went the high end route, (meaning expensive), and I like what I have today better (much lower priced). I used to travel from the midwest to the east coast looking for that holy grail of sound. I found it, but it cost more than my house. I learned something in the process and I lowered my expectations too.

The most interesting thing I learned was that there is no clear answer as to what gear to get. It was a matter of synergy. I listened to the same speakers at different shops and sometimes they sounded great and at others they sounded average, even below average. The only difference was the room, the set up, and the gear. Realize that I believe every system starts with the speakers...
You could buy all the top rated gear suggested by Stereophile magazine and still end up with nothing special.

The one thing I found was that some audio shop owners weren't just retailers, but true enthusiasts. They would mix and match gear until the the magic happened. Most retailers just set their stuff up around a room and called it good. The one thing I found in common to all systems that I deemed exceptional, was setup. The speakers were well away from the front wall and the side walls and the walls were treated with acoustic materials where needed. This was the difference between the system sounding like wallpaper or creating a 3 dimensional soundstage. Not everyone has the right room to bring the best out of their system. BTW, this 3D soundstage I mentioned is not subtle, it's night and day.

Not everything is set in stone as I said before or you said now. My surround system uses Magnepan speakers that hang on the wall and angle out about 30 degrees. Surprisingly, I get a pretty good soundstage from them.

Anyway, I talk too much, but I appreciate your reply.

[Groundbeef]

I was once told on this forum that ideally all speakers should be 12' apart, regardless of size or other concerns. I don't recall the exact arguement, but the author was emphatic that 12' was required between all speakers.

[Luvin Da Blues]

I was once told on this forum that ideally all speakers should be 12' apart, regardless of size or other concerns. I don't recall the exact arguement, but the author was emphatic that 12' was required between all speakers.

Wasn't that dude named Melvin?

[Groundbeef]

Wasn't that dude named Melvin?

Yes...I just wondered if anyone else remembered him. I think Sticks followed his directions, but it resulted in a speaker being placed outside on the patio.

[texlle]

I found this article a couple of years ago and found it pretty helpful.

Speaker Placement

I use the isoceles triangle method. My 2-ch is setup roughly 9 feet away from my head and the speakers about 7 feet apart. It's the most effective method, IMO, considering all of my listening rooms have been rectangular, and the isoceles setup just seems to be a better fit. I take full advantage of the size of the room and find a 10' speaker width to be about the max before the center image falls apart.

[RGA]

I have found soundstaging is a function of the recording. Quite often speakers that are deemed to be soundstage and imaging champs present their stage the same no matter what is recorded. It may sound impressive but it's not really reproducing what is on the disc.

I read a couple of reviews of my speakers for instance. One reviewer noted the impressive panoramic soundstage while the other with a different recording felt it was small and vague. To me that is what speakers and systems should do - tell you what the stage is according to the given disc. It also doesn't help that people tend to focus on the stage with their eyes rather than their ears. My corner loaded speakers are quite capable of producing a stage where it seems instruments are coming 15 feet behind the back wall - I have a Loreena McKennitt disc where this really shines with a walking bagpiper coming towards you from a great distance. Others say the speaker doesn't have much depth - but that's because they see a close wall placement and make an assumption. I have heard that same disc on staging champs that do a horrible job of it.

Certain speakers like the Quad are stunning left to right but there isn't much back to front on any recording. It presents its stage its way and while I like its presentation I do miss the "energy" and drive when its missing.

On soundstaging How Important Is Soundstaging? - The Columns - Dagogo

Also for my particular speakers I find them better when you can spread the speakers further apart. But better in corners. Interestingly, there is a uniformity in sound if the speakers are always placed hard in corners - a immediacy and clarity that is highly reliable and reproducable - not so with any free standing design where the room is always interfering "more" with the sound.

[StevenSurprenant]

I have found soundstaging is a function of the recording. Quite often speakers that are deemed to be soundstage and imaging champs present their stage the same no matter what is recorded. It may sound impressive but it's not really reproducing what is on the disc.

I read a couple of reviews of my speakers for instance. One reviewer noted the impressive panoramic soundstage while the other with a different recording felt it was small and vague. To me that is what speakers and systems should do - tell you what the stage is according to the given disc. It also doesn't help that people tend to focus on the stage with their eyes rather than their ears. My corner loaded speakers are quite capable of producing a stage where it seems instruments are coming 15 feet behind the back wall - I have a Loreena McKennitt disc where this really shines with a walking bagpiper coming towards you from a great distance. Others say the speaker doesn't have much depth - but that's because they see a close wall placement and make an assumption. I have heard that same disc on staging champs that do a horrible job of it.

Certain speakers like the Quad are stunning left to right but there isn't much back to front on any recording. It presents its stage its way and while I like its presentation I do miss the "energy" and drive when its missing.

On soundstaging How Important Is Soundstaging? - The Columns - Dagogo

Also for my particular speakers I find them better when you can spread the speakers further apart. But better in corners. Interestingly, there is a uniformity in sound if the speakers are always placed hard in corners - a immediacy and clarity that is highly reliable and reproducable - not so with any free standing design where the room is always interfering "more" with the sound.

I agree with your assessment of Quads. I never could get a decent soundstage with mine. They had a wonderful sound quality, but they did lack dynamics. I never had much luck mating a sub to them, but back then, subs weren't as good as they are now. For the most part and in my experience, that is the nature of dipoles. However, the maggies that I use for my home theater is a different story. I use a HSU sub in combination with them and together, they are very dynamic. My maggies only go down to about 100Hz and the sub takes over from there. I don't understand why, but they do produce a decent soundstage too.

I understand what you mean about uniformity. In many audio store demo rooms, there are no doorways,or windows to the sides of the speakers and so reflections from the side walls are more uniform than they would be in a home environment. As I wrote in the past, when I was creating the crossovers for my DIY's I was using one speaker about 5 foot from a side wall and the image, from my listening position, was about halfway between the speaker and the wall, rather than from the single speaker itself. That's a pretty strong reflection. This indicates that unless the reflections aren't tamed, having your speakers different distances from side walls, or having one of them near a wall opening, "will" effect the sound, perhaps strongly. Putting your speakers in the corner creates kind of a horn in itself, don't you think? It does equalize reflections though, just as you said. I never had thought of that before.

One of the reasons, as pointed out earlier by another poster, is that moving the speakers away from the front wall will allow adjustment of the bass. Some speakers are too bassy when against the wall.

Concerning the link that you supplied... I understand where the author was going with this and he is totally correct from the perspective he was presenting. From a different perspective... What I enjoy most about soundstaging is the separation between instruments. When instruments have "air" around them and "body", they are more easily discerned out of the mix. The reason this is important to me is that each different instrument has its own qualities, its own beauty in sound and with more separation, I can hear these qualities better. Whether they are left or right, back or front, isn't my primary concern. BTW, it was a very good article.

I'm sure you already know this, but there is no hard set rule for speaker placement. There are too many variables to declare one way better than another. My stereo room limits me to where I can place speakers. There is only one spot that works in that room and I have made the necessary adjustments as to room reflections. As good as I think they sound, a larger room would be nice to get them further apart. As "texlle" pointed out, his center image falls apart if his speakers are too far apart, so that would be the limit in his room. I did have my speakers in a much larger room, in the past, and it was fun to listen to musicals. The soundstage was huge and as each performer would begin to sing, I would be constantly moving my head, left and right, toward the performer on the stage. Very entertaining! As for the room it's in now... sometimes I lean forward to listen and this creates a more isosceles triangle, like "texlle" prefers, and it sounds great, but I'm too close to the speakers to begin with and so when I do lean forward, I feel like I'm on the stage instead of sitting in the audience.

Anyway, Thanks RGA, you brought out some interesting thoughts.

BTW, it seems that we have a mutual friend - Sir Terrence .

[salad 419]

Certain speakers like the Quad are stunning left to right but there isn't much back to front on any recording. It presents its stage its way and while I like its presentation I do miss the "energy" and drive when its missing

Which Quads are you referring to? Just Curious.

I agree with your assessment of Quads. I never could get a decent soundstage with mine. They had a wonderful sound quality, but they did lack dynamics. I never had much luck mating a sub to them, but back then, subs weren't as good as they are now. For the most part and in my experience, that is the nature of dipoles.

Same question, but at least I can narrow it down to one or more of the Electrostatics.

My "Box Quads" or "Fake Quads" are ridiculously sensitive to placement. I will admit that my 22L's are Very lacking in dynamics compared to the 21L's. I seem to get somewhat of a feeling of depth from both sets (maybe 4 - 5 feet), but mostly just a separation of instruments and side to side spatials.

[StevenSurprenant]

Which Quads are you referring to? Just Curious.



Same question, but at least I can narrow it down to one or more of the Electrostatics.

My "Box Quads" or "Fake Quads" are ridiculously sensitive to placement. I will admit that my 22L's are Very lacking in dynamics compared to the 21L's. I seem to get somewhat of a feeling of depth from both sets (maybe 4 - 5 feet), but mostly just a separation of instruments and side to side spatials.

I am speaking about electrostats. I hope that helps. You might want to try different electronics, but don't buy anything that you can't return.

Parts Express has some Digital amps. Maybe this one at 50 watts per channel might work. It's a good company and they have a liberal return policy. It's cheap to try and see if that helps.

Dayton Audio DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC Provides Power To Computer Speakers, Bookshelf Speakers, Headphones, And More! 300-383

[Poultrygeist]

With Open Baffles speakers one has to think outside the box ( pun intended ). What's radiating from the rear is as important as what's coming from the front and for a sonically challenged room OB's are a great choice. As someone said, "with OB the room is your box".

[itsoundsbetter]

I think that Omnidirectional speakers are the best Solution to speaker placement issue.

[cherk001]

^ agreed