Paradigm Studio 100 v.3 vs Axiom M80s.

[RGA]

RGA,buddy...give your head a shake. Let me give you a perfect example of how room interactions can and do matter BIG TIME. I recently had an opportunity to spend a day with some Focus Audio speakers. Two different setups. The FS-888's were in the room with the B&W Nautilus 800's. Let me say that I loved both speakers, though I'm not a fan of B&W's price tag. The room was rectangular, I'm guessing 12 ft by 22 or so.
In position A, the 4 speakers were lined up along the narrow wall (12 feet), in position B along the wide wall, which was probably about 20 feet or so. You probably know where I'm going with this.

The Focus Audio FS-888's, when played along the wide wall, me sitting about 8 feet back, were absolutely incredible, and presented a much wider soundstage with more depth, realizm, and fantastic imaging, simply outperforming the B&W Naut 800's in every aspect IMO. These are among my favorite speakers. However, along the narrow wall, the FS-888's only had about 2 feet or so to breath on either side of the speaker, and it became immediately obvious that the extremely wide soundstage was being choked off. The B&W's, while still not sounding as pleasing to me in terms of the way it handled voices compared to the FS-888, managed to present a smaller soundstage along the smaller wall, and still maintaint the accuracy of imaging individual instruments...But yes, the B&W sounded better along the wide wall too.

This is a real phenomenon, that was instantly recognized by myself and the salesperson. In fact, they had just rearranged the room along the shortwall and when he started listening, he knew right away something was wrong when he popped in his demo CD and didn't get the results he was expecting to show me.

But I already said that you need a room well suited for the speaker - if these companies had any clue they would tell you that in the instruction manual - my Wharfedales and AN's say it and so did my B&W's. SOme will provide a square foot effective rating, how far apart minimum and maximum they should be from one another 10 feet maximum for my Wharfedales which also happens to be the ideal, postion X feet from side and real walls geenrally within a range etc. If you follow their directions you SHOULD be close to the ideal spot - if the room has the distances and room size you SHOULD have zero problem getting them to sound their best in that room.

Of course the room is important for getting the best results - but the better speaker will sound better IT SHOULD in any room provided the room meets the criteria of the speaker maker. If I am listening in a typical 14X18 room at my dealer with a 12 foot ceiling and the speakers can handle that sized room - well mate the speaker is deisgned to operate in typical homes or IT SHOULD BE and that's a typical room.

It's always a cop out - it sounds bad because of the room? BS!. Gee every room then must be bad - how many rooms and equipment do i need to try the 705 in for them to sound good - i'm up to four now and they've actually been consistant in them - consistantly not good but consistant...and this is the speaker that won European Loudspeaker of the year.

[kexodusc]

But I already said that you need a room well suited for the speaker....

The issue of room is bogus - it does not matter **** all which room - the better speaker will sound better in any room.

I respectfully submit you have inadvertently contradicted yourself...but I think we agree that sooner or later a room does matter.

It's always a cop out - it sounds bad because of the room? BS!. Gee every room then must be bad - how many rooms and equipment do i need to try the 705 in for them to sound good - i'm up to four now and they've actually been consistant in them - consistantly not good but consistant...and this is the speaker that won European Loudspeaker of the year.

ROLFMAO!!! I'm not a big fan of the 705 either (but I wouldn't say it sounds "bad", just a bit expensive). I don't deny people can and do use it as a cop-out though..but how often do you seriously get this excuse? And from who?
Does B&W have a disclaimer on their website or something advising you to keep trying rooms until you like them?

It's easier to agree to disagree on what sounds good than argue over this. Geez, an audiologist friend of mine has shown me papers that prove that the shape of a person's ears will make a bigger difference on the perceived sound than any given piece of equipment...this could explain a lot...could explain some of Bose's claims.

[RGA]

I respectfully submit you have inadvertently contradicted yourself...but I think we agree that sooner or later a room does matter.



ROLFMAO!!! I'm not a big fan of the 705 either (but I wouldn't say it sounds "bad", just a bit expensive). I don't deny people can and do use it as a cop-out though..but how often do you seriously get this excuse? And from who?
Does B&W have a disclaimer on their website or something advising you to keep trying rooms until you like them?

It's easier to agree to disagree on what sounds good than argue over this. Geez, an audiologist friend of mine has shown me papers that prove that the shape of a person's ears will make a bigger difference on the perceived sound than any given piece of equipment...this could explain a lot...could explain some of Bose's claims.

But if your audiologist friend is correct he may want to tell Floyd Toole and Harman this because according to them everyone or mostly everyone prefers what they tell people to prefer and they have a DBT(such that it is) to "prove" it. Hmmm.

I actually would bet Toole and crew are kinda right but IMO wrong speakers

Of course preference is something else that those jokers never account for - for instance why some people love the Stones and I think they sound like screaming noise makers - same "sound" entering the old ear canal - but some HATE LOATHE despise and get physically ill listening to the stuff(RAP) and some have that reaction to Mozart. Same sound - very different reaction to it. Another hmm.

[Woochifer]

It's easier to agree to disagree on what sounds good than argue over this. Geez, an audiologist friend of mine has shown me papers that prove that the shape of a person's ears will make a bigger difference on the perceived sound than any given piece of equipment...this could explain a lot...could explain some of Bose's claims.

Actually, the shape of the human ear is exactly why we hear things behind us differently than sources directly in front of us. Back when we were getting into knockdown skirmishes on this board about the merits of EX/ES encoding, Terrence repeatedly pointed out that the shape of our ears and diffraction from our ear lobes affect how we hear things behind us. (Believe me, when I was new to this board and multichannel audio in general, that was one of the first things that Terrence straightened me out on)

This is one reason why you're not supposed to position surround speakers directly behind the listening position the same way that a main speaker is positioned directly in front. The ITU multichannel speaker reference placement specifies 110 degrees off center for the surround speaker placement, which is only 20 degrees behind the listener. If we didn't hear things differently from behind, then the reference should be 150 degrees offcenter to match the 30 degree recommended offset up front.

It's pretty much a given that people hear things differently.

[kexodusc]

Actually, the shape of the human ear is exactly why we hear things behind us differently than sources directly in front of us. Back when we were getting into knockdown skirmishes on this board about the merits of EX/ES encoding, Terrence repeatedly pointed out that the shape of our ears and diffraction from our ear lobes affect how we hear things behind us. (Believe me, when I was new to this board and multichannel audio in general, that was one of the first things that Terrence straightened me out on)
.

Great, in addition to woofer KY Jelly, we can sell ear lobe rings to compensate for lobe shapes and standardize everyone's hearing to the audiophile norm. Sit down, put on your 'lobes, and turn the music up...
Of course, then some other company will offer them in water based gel format instead of latex, and claim that it reduces sibilance while enhancing soundstage...which of course we'll have to counter with the DBT card...

[rajx7]

Hey Guys,
I thought people come here hoping to get some answers. I started this thread hoping to recieve some help with my selection of the speakers but instead, seems like I have started a cold war. You guys seem to have gone off track from the main topic. Please don't say that in essence it is a part of it. No body gave me an answer about Von Shweikerts I had mentioned earlier. Could anyone please be kind enough to help me there.

Regards,
R

[bacchanal]

Von Shweikerts are really nice...I've listened to the Vr2's once and I really liked them. Of course, I didn't audition them or anything. My impression was that they were a little more articulate than my Paradigm studio 40 v2's, and the top end of the frequency didn't have the charactaristic paradigm studio series sound.
I am quite happy with my studio 40s, and I don't think I'll feel the need to replace them for quite some time, but I'll probably consider Von Shweikert when I do. The problem is that VS is going to be pretty hard to find, and I don't know if you can get them online, but even if you could, you would still want to listen to them first.
When I bought my studio40s, I only considered speakers that I could listen to in person. I spent several months shopping around and listening before I made a purchase. I didn't audition every speaker in the same room, and I couldn't always use the same equipment either, but I was able to get a feel for the generel charactaristics of each speaker. You have to weigh in your mind what you are hearing based on the listening environment and equipment. Obviously no speaker is going to sound as good in best buy as it will at a hifi audio dealer. The listening environments (and equipment) are totally different.
Listen to whatever you can. If you don't find anything locally that thrills you, give the axioms a try in home. If you like them...keep them

[Woochifer]

Of course the room is important for getting the best results - but the better speaker will sound better IT SHOULD in any room provided the room meets the criteria of the speaker maker. If I am listening in a typical 14X18 room at my dealer with a 12 foot ceiling and the speakers can handle that sized room - well mate the speaker is deisgned to operate in typical homes or IT SHOULD BE and that's a typical room.

And where are the speakers positioned? And what are the absorptive properties of the walls? Is the floor on a slab or is it elevated? Where are the entryways located and low wide are they? Those are but a few of the factors that affect the sound quality.

It's always a cop out - it sounds bad because of the room? BS!. Gee every room then must be bad - how many rooms and equipment do i need to try the 705 in for them to sound good - i'm up to four now and they've actually been consistant in them - consistantly not good but consistant...and this is the speaker that won European Loudspeaker of the year.

ALWAYS a cop out? You really need to get out from beyond your dealer's "four rooms" if you think that they are representative of every possible configuration. If you really want a contrast, try out a set of speakers inside of an untreated room with hard surfaces all the way around, and see if it sounds different from a room with carpeting, bass traps, and acoustically treated walls and ceilings.

Just in my house, the sound of my speakers changed when I moved them from one room to another. The peak in the bass shifted from 70 Hz to 88 Hz. Depending on the source material, that produces a VERY different sounding bass. Brick and glass along two walls on a slab hardwood floor to a room with drywall and plaster on three sides and an elevated floor with carpeting, again very different acoustical properties and results in different imaging and somewhat different tonal cues. The difference between having the acoustical panels in place versus not having them, also very noticeable in listenings AND measureable.

If the B&W 705 won an award, obviously SOMEBODY liked them, so your blanket condemnations of that speaker are obviously not universally shared.

[GeneticDrift]

I have the m60's and I really love them. When I originally ordered them I never expected them to meet my expatiations. I figured I would play with them for 30 days and send them back.

I knew within the first 15 minutes they would never leave the house. They have surpassed every expectation I had.

I think many get in the mindset of bigger is better and want the m80's but I feel the m60 will satisfy 99% of purchasers.

[RGA]

And where are the speakers positioned? And what are the absorptive properties of the walls? Is the floor on a slab or is it elevated? Where are the entryways located and low wide are they? Those are but a few of the factors that affect the sound quality.



ALWAYS a cop out? You really need to get out from beyond your dealer's "four rooms" if you think that they are representative of every possible configuration. If you really want a contrast, try out a set of speakers inside of an untreated room with hard surfaces all the way around, and see if it sounds different from a room with carpeting, bass traps, and acoustically treated walls and ceilings.

Just in my house, the sound of my speakers changed when I moved them from one room to another. The peak in the bass shifted from 70 Hz to 88 Hz. Depending on the source material, that produces a VERY different sounding bass. Brick and glass along two walls on a slab hardwood floor to a room with drywall and plaster on three sides and an elevated floor with carpeting, again very different acoustical properties and results in different imaging and somewhat different tonal cues. The difference between having the acoustical panels in place versus not having them, also very noticeable in listenings AND measureable.

If the B&W 705 won an award, obviously SOMEBODY liked them, so your blanket condemnations of that speaker are obviously not universally shared.

Yup I'm sure they do. But - I have heard the 705 in three dealers now different rooms - treated and not of varying size. A boring speaker that can not get anything remotely close to reproducing a piano - yeah it's a tough instrument but... expectations must be low and most of the 705's competition might be worse - so the best of a bad lot and people who have no ear for good sound.

[newbsterv2]

Hey RGA want a laugh?? I've auditioned the 705's as well and let's just say that I gave them 15 minutes and I was really bothered by their reproduction of music. Too forward a midrange, too much treble. I tried a few different brand receivers as well as cdp's to make sure it wasn't the source. Anyway, the Parts Express DIY kit that goes by the name of BR-1 for a measly $140 shipped to my door is pretty damned good at reproducing piano. Better than the Axiom M3ti, Paradigm Monitor 7, and Magnepan MMG. If the BR-1 had just a wee bit more extension on top for the "airiness" in recordings and the midrange was just a wee bit more forward I think that speaker would be the best speaker I've ever heard. Call that insane or ridiculous or whatever but it just goes to show that you don't have to spend the $1,500 asking price of the B&W 705 to enjoy Glenn Gould playing Bach's 2 and 3 part inventions on that troublesome Steinway cd318 that "hiccups" some of the time. Gotta love those salespeople too. They really do give the impression that they don't use the restroom as mere humans do but they emit rose petals from their belly buttons when they gotta go. Happy listening!!!

Yup I'm sure they do. But - I have heard the 705 in three dealers now different rooms - treated and not of varying size. A boring speaker that can not get anything remotely close to reproducing a piano - yeah it's a tough instrument but... expectations must be low and most of the 705's competition might be worse - so the best of a bad lot and people who have no ear for good sound.

[rajx7]

Thanks bacchanal. Finally somebody cared to say something, without being sarcastic. I have one dealer in my area for Von Shweikerts. I had the chance to listen to VR-4 Jr in stereo and man they sound so clean. But they are little too expensive for me. So thought of looking into a one lower model i.e VR-2. After researching online for those, read some nice reviews. Wanted to hear experiences from you guys.

[kexodusc]

newbsterv2...the extension in the BR-1's is actually there, it just starts to roll off and no longer falls within the state +/-3dB spec...but it's actually higher than the 18 kHz stated would suggest. Not that any of us can really hear that high.
Good choice, glad you like them...I'd put them up against the M3Ti's (I own) and Paradigm Mini Monitors (briefly owned) any day. A little tough on amps though...but great value.
There's a million and 1 tweaks out there too.

[RGA]

Newbster

It really is not totally surprising - it does not matter how much one spends on a speaker OR how much the company spends on drivers or materials - if it's a BAD design it's a BAD design.