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  1. #1
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    paradigm HTIB...

    ...and pretty soon B&W HTIB and soon after that Dynaudio HTIB...ohh what a mess this will turn out to be!
    but, since i have not heard paradigms HTiB i can only speculate. this is consumer-targeted marketing for sure. but, who knows, i may even look into it

    btw, i have been away from here for a few days, mostly because when i try to access audioreview.com i get a message saying "service being repaired" i was only able to get in today by accessing a link via consumerreview.com - anyone else had this problem?

  2. #2
    3db
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    Yer a littlwe quick to put the cart in frot of the horse

    I understand where your headed but there has been some decent HTIB released, NAD/PSB Alpha's spring to mind ... I'm quessing that Paradidm would be careful to release a decent enough package as not to damage their reputation.

  3. #3
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    It's probably just those Cinema series speakers or whatever...Yeah, I would suspect Paradigm's would be decent...Athena and Energy both make decent sets too.

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    ive read about the athena micra6. have you heard it? if so, how do they sound?
    i have only heard m&k, mirage, and definitive tech sub/sat systems. i thought that they all sounded decent with movies, terrible with music, and lacking in refined bass. i think that sub/sat systems, for the most part, lack good subs. but, you may prove me wrong.
    have you heard ventriloquist? since hsu does make a good sub for the money.

  5. #5
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    Hmm, the Athena micra's sound good for what they are, better for HT than music, but I suppose you could live with them...if it was me I'd use christmas to get a set of decent speakers a bit later and use the "B" channel for music. But I'm curious...what Mirage speakers did you demo? I really doubt the Athena's are as good as the Mirage's...

  6. #6
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    to be perfetly honest, i was expecting more out of tha mirage. it was the new omnistat micro system. the sound was just not forward-striking enough for movies imo. they actually work better for music-dvds i thought.

  7. #7
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    Well, I haven't tested out the Omnistats yet, but they aren't quite what I think of when Mirage comes up. I can say that Mirage has always been one of the better sounding speakers in my opinion. I've never owned a Mirage speaker in my life, but every time I shop they make the short list.
    Definitely give the Athena's a whirl, and Energy too if you can. Good luck.

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    you must be speaking of mirage full size speakers then? i am talking about specifically about their sub/sat system

  9. #9
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    No, I was thinking about their smaller systems, but maybe the noral omni-stats or the HDT series which are a bit bigger as you say. Seems to me they use to have something else a bit smaller too.
    No matter, Athena is a sister company to Mirage, both make quality products. I believe Energy is also related to those two, and they're speaker sets have been recommended here for years now.

  10. #10
    RGA
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    I doubt this should surprise anyone...HTiB is a big market. B&W enered it so so will other Hi End Brands - just so you don't get conned into thinking their cubes are going to magically be worth listening to you're okay. I can safely say I'd give the Energy Take 5 set-up a 2 out of 10 for music and a 4 for home theater reproduction. And it's the best I've heard under $1000.00Cdn. But I'm picky many will be extremely happy with it and that is ALL that matters.

  11. #11
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    I agree with RGA. I work part-time at a big box retailer and so many people come in and don't want to spend any money for a better receiver and separate speakers. They just want something $200-$500 on average just so they can have 5.1 surround for DVDs. It's a shame but just the way the majority of the public buys. Paradigm, B&W, etc are losing big money to companies like Zenith, Toshiba, Sony, Samsung, Koss, Panasonic and others.

  12. #12
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    I think it's necessary to put HTIB into perspective. They're not made with audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts in mind. Just like Ferarri's aren't made with Honda enthusiasts in mind. I've heard some HTIB's by Panasonic and Sony that sound a helluva lot better than TV speakers, and do greatly improve the HT experience.
    Nothing wrong with HTIB or Honda at all...I can't afford a Ferarri. There's enough elitist crap going on in the world. There's some guys out there that would rather kill themselves than listen to $5000 european speakers because their $30000 japanese speakers sound better. If all you've got is a TV and a boombox, HTIB is a big step up.

  13. #13
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I think it's necessary to put HTIB into perspective. They're not made with audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts in mind. Just like Ferarri's aren't made with Honda enthusiasts in mind. I've heard some HTIB's by Panasonic and Sony that sound a helluva lot better than TV speakers, and do greatly improve the HT experience.
    Nothing wrong with HTIB or Honda at all...I can't afford a Ferarri. There's enough elitist crap going on in the world. There's some guys out there that would rather kill themselves than listen to $5000 european speakers because their $30000 japanese speakers sound better. If all you've got is a TV and a boombox, HTIB is a big step up.
    It's funny but I prefer to listen to the sometimes horrible tv speakers than cheap HTiB. I'd rather listen to 2 ousy speakers than pay $500.00 to listen to 5 lousy speakers and a subwoofer which is not even a subwoofer but a woofer in a box that wil never hit a sub-sonic frequency to save their life.

    IMO HTiB is a huge scam. They promise 5.1 surround sound "Theater sound in your home" BS. Some resemblance of it maybe but people would be far better of with a set of 2 speakers for their $500.00. Yeah they lost the tinny ring from the rear effects in 15% of action movies that have rear effects - and if properly set-up you will get rear effects from 2 speakers.

    I agree they're not sold to audiophiles - but I think poeple would still like to get the most bang for the buck but when every store is trying to dump the Wal-Mart Zenith set-up on you for $599.00 and it looks so cool and promises so much I understand why people go for them.

    Like my friend's parents who bought such a Pioneer set-up for their projection screen tv - they even now watch DVDs with JUST the tv speakers as they can't be bothered to turn the amp on to listen to the crap the Pioneer cubes were putting out. They are more of a distraction to the movie than adding to the movie going experience.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It's funny but I prefer to listen to the sometimes horrible tv speakers than cheap HTiB. I'd rather listen to 2 ousy speakers than pay $500.00 to listen to 5 lousy speakers and a subwoofer which is not even a subwoofer but a woofer in a box that wil never hit a sub-sonic frequency to save their life.

    IMO HTiB is a huge scam. They promise 5.1 surround sound "Theater sound in your home" BS. Some resemblance of it maybe but people would be far better of with a set of 2 speakers for their $500.00. Yeah they lost the tinny ring from the rear effects in 15% of action movies that have rear effects - and if properly set-up you will get rear effects from 2 speakers.

    I agree they're not sold to audiophiles - but I think poeple would still like to get the most bang for the buck but when every store is trying to dump the Wal-Mart Zenith set-up on you for $599.00 and it looks so cool and promises so much I understand why people go for them.

    Like my friend's parents who bought such a Pioneer set-up for their projection screen tv - they even now watch DVDs with JUST the tv speakers as they can't be bothered to turn the amp on to listen to the crap the Pioneer cubes were putting out. They are more of a distraction to the movie than adding to the movie going experience.
    Well you won't get an argument from me about being better off to start with just 2 speakers for $500, but I have yet to hear a TV under $3000 with speakers that sound even 50% as good as your standard crappy Panasonic/Sony/Pioneer HTIB's in a 5.1 setup.

    Now I've heard some truly, god-aweful $100-200 Wal-mart Zenith or no-name brands that should be illegal, but that's a different story. And the 5.1 systems that are packaged with mini-systems are laughable.

    I think calling HTIB a scam is a bit excessive. I know people that I've argued countless hours with, trying to convince them to avoid HTIB's, but in the end they were absolutely satisfied with their purchases for the amount they'd actually use them. No sense spending $1000 on a 5 cheap speakers or a sub-woofer if you might get an hour or two use out of them a week either...
    My uncle has an incredibly expensive and wonderful sounding Audio Note/Bryston stereo in his den, and a cheap Panasonic HTIB in his living room, but for the amount of TV he watches (not much), it's all he needs. He was well aware of what he was getting into, but the premium he'd have to pay for the higher performance was quite simply not reasonable for him.

    Given that some people will undoubtedly buy HTIB's for budget reasons or whatever, I'd feel better steering them towards the few sets that aren't absolutely painful to hear, rather than insult their decisions with some enthusiast crap they care nothing about.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular depressed's Avatar
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    Unhappy Lowered expectations

    Two words from this post's title are the words that come to my mind when I think about this topic. As I already wrote, 2 months before buying my "cheap" HTIB, I started doing extensive research in the home theater market.When I finished the research, I had enough info not to fall for the salesmen's bull,cheap ads and the fancy looks of underperforming units. As I went up the quality/features/specs latter, I started drooling, just to stop doing the same when I looked at the price tag. I coudn't afford what I wanted. I don't think I need to tell you this, yet I will: I overcharged my account when I bought my HTIB and was charged the $30 fee for doing so.
    Why am I saying this? Because I see it from both points of view: I will assume that I know more about audio then the average Joe, yet I can afford less then he can. The fact that one knows he is "settling" for something is the most unsettling one, not only in the audio field, but in every aspect of life. Some people buy cheap because they don't know better. Some do it even if they can afford better, but don't care to see/hear the difference.
    Or maybe they can't tell the difference between a $400 sound and the $3500 sound.
    Some just don't think home theater is worth the money. I assure you, they don't post here.

    Whoever decided what my HTIB should contain, he tried to match it decently. I would have blown my budget ( I did anyway) if I had tried to do it myself. Besides, finding/matching speakers is the hardest part of buying it separately, IMHO. I listened to one of my favorites songs a couple of days ago, and that melody that starts off in the low and works it's way up the mid range never sounded better.
    And now I will go and finish Master and Commander for the third time. It's so tense, I am afraid that the battle will have a different outcome evey time I play it.

    My point is, we can't always get what we want. I'm grateful for all of your advices nad the help you gave me. I'm not mad with anybody. It just stings a little bit.

    P.S. If you are ever in the Saint Louis area, feel free to drop by to see the arch and listen to my setup. You can't have the remote,though
    Thanks to 6.1, I now have more tolerance for people breathing down my neck...

  16. #16
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Well you won't get an argument from me about being better off to start with just 2 speakers for $500, but I have yet to hear a TV under $3000 with speakers that sound even 50% as good as your standard crappy Panasonic/Sony/Pioneer HTIB's in a 5.1 setup.

    Now I've heard some truly, god-aweful $100-200 Wal-mart Zenith or no-name brands that should be illegal, but that's a different story. And the 5.1 systems that are packaged with mini-systems are laughable.

    I think calling HTIB a scam is a bit excessive. I know people that I've argued countless hours with, trying to convince them to avoid HTIB's, but in the end they were absolutely satisfied with their purchases for the amount they'd actually use them. No sense spending $1000 on a 5 cheap speakers or a sub-woofer if you might get an hour or two use out of them a week either...
    My uncle has an incredibly expensive and wonderful sounding Audio Note/Bryston stereo in his den, and a cheap Panasonic HTIB in his living room, but for the amount of TV he watches (not much), it's all he needs. He was well aware of what he was getting into, but the premium he'd have to pay for the higher performance was quite simply not reasonable for him.

    Given that some people will undoubtedly buy HTIB's for budget reasons or whatever, I'd feel better steering them towards the few sets that aren't absolutely painful to hear, rather than insult their decisions with some enthusiast crap they care nothing about.

    Well sometimes I rush my posts and get my points less clear than I should. yes HTiB is superior generally to TV speakers - my point which was not made is that to me the money you have to pay could be better spent on 2 channel - despite Woochifer's arguments of mixdowns etc - with my Audio Note speakers and my Wharfedales for that matter by themselves with the Sugden A48B I would take over a Denon 3802 and a complete Paradigm Monitor set-up FOR MOVIES. Sound wise there is no contest. A good speaker/amp is better regardless of mixdowns because you can't get away from horrible box resonances and ****ty tweeters. Front left to right cohesion is much superior and dialogue is more articulate as well. So what do I lose rear effects? Yes...so what for the little that they are used in the majority of movies they're rarely missed - and with some movies like the Patriot(horrible movie great sound) I can hear cannon balls and gunfore coming from behind me --ditto for Saving Private Ryan which even made me duck. My couch is pratically against the rear wall which greatly helps of course but if you are not getting it from 2 speakers then your speakers suck donkey balls - so again I go back to getting 2 good speakers over 5 lousy ones.

    Some will say that the mix down is a crapshoot and dialogue would be horrible with an integrated amp -- but i have 200 DVDs and the only time there has been difficulty hearing dialogue has been with the 5.1 receivers - NOT with my integrated. I rarely ever need to adjust volume during a movie with my Audio Note/Sugden because the effects are too loud and the voices too quiet. Part of that is because many of the h/t speakers pump up the frequency extremes ruining the midrange(where the dialogue is). They're not even good for home theater - if it plays music correctly it will do movies correctly.

    Yes it's better than tv but to me not worth the money unless you're going to do it right. The Marantz 4300 is adequate - better with a power amp - might be very good, if I can afford it ---LOL doubtful - with 5 Audio Note AN K's and as soon as Audio Note brings out their Single Ended 845 Tube powered subwoofer then I'll be pleased.

    I agree with you - if this is 2 hours a week and you don't really really care - then HTiB is a good option - if you're a budding Roger Ebert maybe you want to invest a lot.

    Consider this - I'm looking to buy a camera - I'm not a serious picture taker whatsover. I have never owned a camera. So I'm looking for a basic digital camera - but since I'm looking I would rather get a pretty decent one --is $150 for crap better spent than $250.00 for something pretty good or $350.00 for something that for me would give me the oiptioon to grow with the camera? Now I may never do that but with the $150.00 one I don't have the option at all. One reason I bought the only receiver in the price range that allows you to upgrade it. As for the Camera it'll probably be the Canon A80 or A85(Or a Nikon) ---More camera than I will ever need but hopefully it lasts a few decades.

  17. #17
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    RGA: Yeah, I see where your coming from (other than yet another jab at Paradigm--jeez, did Paradigm run over your dog or something???)

    I use to run some old Wharfedale E-90's off a NAD integrated amp for movies in my apartment several years ago, and that definitely gave more punch to films than most HTIB's I've heard. I still much preferred the sound from a Marantz pro-logic receiver and your basic cheap PSB Alpha 5.1 speaker setup for movies though (my first HT, ahh the memories). I don't think the 5 speakers and sub cost as much as my Wharfedales did and they certainly couldn't compete with them for music, but there's alot to be said for a well placed surround setup over 2-channel.

    Don't get me wrong, nothing infuriates me more when I see a man walk into Best Buy with $5000, and the salesguy pawns off an over-rated, huge Hitachi or Toshiba TV and then tells him a basic Kenwood amp and HTIB is all he needs...talk about a mismatch. That's a huge dis-service. The guy would be much better off with a cheaper 40 something inch TV and a Denon amp with JBL's or Polk's or something. But I'm ranting now.

    I still see receivers packaged with 2 huge Cerwin-Vega mains, and 3 satellite sony speaker and a sub in some places...this can't possibly sound good. But the CV's big looks sell (I guess).

    I did give the Athena Micra's another go yesterday for about 1/2 an hour. For HTIB these things are quite impressive, and even did a decent job on Diana Krall's Paris concert DVD...Maybe HTIB manufacturers are making them better now, instead of just as fast as they could build them? We'll see.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular depressed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Don't get me wrong, nothing infuriates me more when I see a man walk into Best Buy with $5000, and the salesguy pawns off an over-rated, huge Hitachi or Toshiba TV and then tells him a basic Kenwood amp and HTIB is all he needs...talk about a mismatch. That's a huge dis-service. The guy would be much better off with a cheaper 40 something inch TV and a Denon amp with JBL's or Polk's or something. But I'm ranting now.

    I still see receivers packaged with 2 huge Cerwin-Vega mains, and 3 satellite sony speaker and a sub in some places...this can't possibly sound good. But the CV's big looks sell (I guess).

    I did give the Athena Micra's another go yesterday for about 1/2 an hour. For HTIB these things are quite impressive, and even did a decent job on Diana Krall's Paris concert DVD...Maybe HTIB manufacturers are making them better now, instead of just as fast as they could build them? We'll see.

    I agree. Unfortunately, majority of buyers velive everything salesmen say and are easily blinded by looks of some units. I guess it's their own fault. I will never understand gow a guy can walk into the store and spend $5000 without doing any research of his own and totally buy crap from the unmotivated salesguy crap. . That's the key.
    As long as you have people throwing money out of the window, you will have Dell's and Zenith's. And no, the price is not an excuse. I assure you, you can get much better equipment in the same price range, if you look for it.
    Same deal with computers. A friend of mine works for BestBuy, he says they sell at least one Alienware unit per day. Now that is a waste of money. The computer you pay $3000 for in stores, you can easily build it yourself (the exact same thing, maybe even better!) for $1200 or if you are too lazy, you can make a custom configuration and have it already built up for less then $1800. While we are at it, let's name a few:
    Oritron
    Emerson
    Norcent
    Durabrand
    Regent
    Magnavox
    Thanks to 6.1, I now have more tolerance for people breathing down my neck...

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well sometimes I rush my posts and get my points less clear than I should. yes HTiB is superior generally to TV speakers - my point which was not made is that to me the money you have to pay could be better spent on 2 channel - despite Woochifer's arguments of mixdowns etc - with my Audio Note speakers and my Wharfedales for that matter by themselves with the Sugden A48B I would take over a Denon 3802 and a complete Paradigm Monitor set-up FOR MOVIES. Sound wise there is no contest. A good speaker/amp is better regardless of mixdowns because you can't get away from horrible box resonances and ****ty tweeters. Front left to right cohesion is much superior and dialogue is more articulate as well. So what do I lose rear effects? Yes...so what for the little that they are used in the majority of movies they're rarely missed - and with some movies like the Patriot(horrible movie great sound) I can hear cannon balls and gunfore coming from behind me --ditto for Saving Private Ryan which even made me duck. My couch is pratically against the rear wall which greatly helps of course but if you are not getting it from 2 speakers then your speakers suck donkey balls - so again I go back to getting 2 good speakers over 5 lousy ones.
    Basically, my argument has always been about playing back the soundtrack the way that it was originally intended. You cannot get that by using two speakers to play back a 5.1 soundtrack, period. The spatial cues and the directional effects work between the main and surround speakers as a unit. If you want those effects and that spatiality conveyed the way that the the sound engineer intended, then it does not work with a two-channel setup. The two-channel mixdowns from 5.1 soundtracks are done according to predetermined levels, and whenever I've listened to a 5.1 soundtrack in two-channel mode, the balances between all the different sound elements rarely sound right compared to how it sounds in 5.1.

    5.1 soundtracks are mixed with a 5.1 speaker setup in mind, and do not get checked against how the mixdown would sound in a two-channel setup. All you have to do is compare those DVDs that include both 5.1 and 2.0 soundtracks. In two-channel playback, the 2.0 soundtrack will almost always have more pronounced dialog and overall better balance between the different sound elements compared to the 5.1 mixdown. The difference is that one was mixed using a two speaker setup, and the other one with 5.1 playback in mind. I don't think you'd be much of a fan of playing two-channel music through DSP processors, yet playing a 5.1 soundtrack in two-channel mixdown mode is conceptually the same thing in reverse -- you're taking an original source signal and applying a predetermined set of alterations to it.

    Your argument about what comes out of the surround speakers on movie soundtracks is an increasingly outdated view in light of how they get mixed nowadays. More and more of the information is getting mixed into the surrounds, and the use of directional sound that conveys a strong sense of front-to-back and side-to-side imaging is on the increase for all kinds of movies, even dialog driven ones. Movies like "Insomnia" that are dialog driven also have ambient cues mixed into the surrounds that pull the viewer deeper into a scene and make the experience all that much more involving. "Master and Commander" is a masterfully done 5.1 surround mix that conveys the claustrophobic feeling of being below deck and the full expanse of an open sea battle, yet has very well recorded and directionally placed dialog. A two-channel setup, no matter how good the speakers are, just cannot convey the kind of side imaging, depth perception, and rear soundstaging that a good 5.1 setup will. Even if speakers aren't as good as your vaunted Audio Notes, that doesn't inevitably mean that everything below that level is crap. In actuality, watching something like "Master and Commander" on any two-channel system would be a vastly inferior experience overall because of what would be missing from the presentation that you can only get with a multichannel setup. (and we're not even on the subject of how the balances between all the various sound elements get jumbled around when they go through the two channel mixdown)

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Some will say that the mix down is a crapshoot and dialogue would be horrible with an integrated amp -- but i have 200 DVDs and the only time there has been difficulty hearing dialogue has been with the 5.1 receivers - NOT with my integrated. I rarely ever need to adjust volume during a movie with my Audio Note/Sugden because the effects are too loud and the voices too quiet. Part of that is because many of the h/t speakers pump up the frequency extremes ruining the midrange(where the dialogue is). They're not even good for home theater - if it plays music correctly it will do movies correctly.
    Well, I have a 5.1 receiver with a timbre matched 5.1 speaker setup and a 200+ DVD collection, and have not had difficulty with the dialog intelligibility either (except for the Pulp Fiction:CE DVD, which had poor channel balancing in the DTS track that was not present in the DD track), so I don't see your point. And when you mention dialog problems with 5.1 receivers that aren't present with your integrated amp, were those problems noted with an identical speaker setup in the same room, or was that comparing what you heard in some dealer's demo room versus what you heard some time later in your own room? Since you don't even have a 5.1 setup at home, I would have to guess that you're drawing your conclusions from the latter.

    And with that range of variability (with different room acoustics, speaker positioning, level balances, delay timing, DD compression level, LFE output levels, etc.), you have zero basis for concluding what the causal effects of dialog intelligibility problems are. And out of those 200 DVDs that you have, how many of them have you actually heard on a timbre matched, and properly aligned and calibrated 5.1 speaker setup? With a decent 5.1 setup, the causal effect of dialog intelligibility issues are far more likely to stem from the levels and the delay timing of the center speaker than anything having to do with integrated amp versus receiver.

    I will agree with you that a lot of speakers bump up the highs and lows, but that kind of speaker design predates the advent of home theater, so it's really nothing new.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Consider this - I'm looking to buy a camera - I'm not a serious picture taker whatsover. I have never owned a camera. So I'm looking for a basic digital camera - but since I'm looking I would rather get a pretty decent one --is $150 for crap better spent than $250.00 for something pretty good or $350.00 for something that for me would give me the oiptioon to grow with the camera? Now I may never do that but with the $150.00 one I don't have the option at all. One reason I bought the only receiver in the price range that allows you to upgrade it. As for the Camera it'll probably be the Canon A80 or A85(Or a Nikon) ---More camera than I will ever need but hopefully it lasts a few decades.
    Big difference though is that digital cameras are far from a mature technology. Anything you buy right now, you will inevitably see for nearly half the price next year. The Canon S230 that I got for a wedding present last year cost $400 at the time, and I recently saw it selling for about $200. And only a year before that, $400 would barely get you a decent 2 megapixel camera. Last Christmas, I got my parents a 2 megapixel Olympus for $110. Even that 4 megapixel A80 that you're looking at originally cost $500 when it was introduced at the end of last year, and now it's selling for less than $400USD. What you're really paying for with the extra bucks on a digital camera are some of the automatic features and some better build in the casing, but the CCD and the processing capabilities are going to vary a lot less. At the rate that the technology's progressing and the file formats are changing, expecting a digital camera to last you decades just isn't realistic. (for one thing, future operating systems may not support the current memory card formats or the camera datalink)

    If you really want to research out digital cameras, go to Steve's Digicams. They post actual photos taken by the cameras and use identical setups for the pictures, so you can compare the picture quality from camera to camera.

    http://www.steves-digicams.com/

  20. #20
    RGA
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    Yes I'm delaying as long as possible for a digital camera precisely because the prices are dropping.

    As for surround...this is a taste issue - because as I said I would rather watch movies given the choice with my Audio Notes over an Energy Take 5 like system because I dislike the speakers. So while the director may intend the viewer to watch his movie in proper surround sound -- my idea of proper sound is to have good speakers to produce it. Ideally that would be 5 Audio Note speakers and 2 well integrated subs.

    Basically my philosophy is does the speaker get music right - if so it will do movies right - then it's a matter of having enough of those speakers. The Energy Take 5 and all others like them that I have heard do not get music remotely right - and since most movies contain a large amount of music - most of the film's running time in fact -- then I want a speaker to produce it correctly.

    I would rather listen to 5 channels of Audio Notes over 2 chaneels of Audio Notes for movies no question about it. But I would also rather listen to 2 channels of Audio Note's over a surround package that to my ears butchers timbral accuracy, dynamics and a list of others to the point that it to me is unlistenable -- even if you get "more" information in the rears.

    George Lucas uses B&W N802s all around so that is what the director intended - not a $199.00 Wall Mart Surround sound system...I'm sure George would like you have 2 N802s to get by with. And if the current UHF #69 is remotely correct about surround then I know he'd rather have you listen to 2 N802s over a $199.00 surround package --- or even the 1k Energy Take 5. If the speakers is not identical it is not matched - period. Close perhaps.

    I'm not disagreeing with listening to surround sound properly set-up with good speakers...just that I would personally prefer to listen to two good speakers over 5 lousy ones (and lousy is highly subjective - and personal taste). And just as I can enjoy Santana on a personal discman or the stock stereo of a car I can also enjoy watching any of my films with JUST the tv speakers. The Stereo enhances the experience if it's a good stereo - bad ones can distract me more than enhance.

  21. #21
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I'm delaying as long as possible for a digital camera precisely because the prices are dropping.

    As for surround...this is a taste issue - because as I said I would rather watch movies given the choice with my Audio Notes over an Energy Take 5 like system because I dislike the speakers. So while the director may intend the viewer to watch his movie in proper surround sound -- my idea of proper sound is to have good speakers to produce it. Ideally that would be 5 Audio Note speakers and 2 well integrated subs.

    Basically my philosophy is does the speaker get music right - if so it will do movies right - then it's a matter of having enough of those speakers. The Energy Take 5 and all others like them that I have heard do not get music remotely right - and since most movies contain a large amount of music - most of the film's running time in fact -- then I want a speaker to produce it correctly.
    Well, nothing wrong with that philosophy, however there is quite a bit of distance between a pair of $2,000 Audio Notes and a $600 Energy Take 5 system. My entire Studio 40/CC/20 setup cost less than $1,900USD, so that level of performance would actually be a more appropriate comparison. Even though I have no doubt that the Audio Notes would be very revealing with two-channel playback, they would also be unacceptable for my listening because my prerequisite for multichannel soundtracks begins with five speakers. In my listenings, the speaker pairs at the $2,000 price point were of course a step up on my setup for two-channel playback, but not by such orders of magnitude that speakers at half the price were therefore unlistenable, and to me the gain with two-channel sources was more than offset by the multichannel functionality that a five-speaker setup gives. In very much the same way that you probably would not settle for one higher model Audio Note speaker played back in monophonic rather than a pair of the lower level models that you bought, I view multichannel movie and 5.1 music playback in the same vein.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I would rather listen to 5 channels of Audio Notes over 2 chaneels of Audio Notes for movies no question about it. But I would also rather listen to 2 channels of Audio Note's over a surround package that to my ears butchers timbral accuracy, dynamics and a list of others to the point that it to me is unlistenable -- even if you get "more" information in the rears.
    Sure, but again, there's a lot of space between a $200 starter system or a minimally acceptable surround speaker package (and the $600 Energy Take 5 is that level IMO) and something that can be purchased for about $2,000. I heard plenty of surround options around that price point, and while I had my clear preferences, there weren't too many of them that rendered music unlistenable or had major problems with timbral accuracy or dynamics.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    George Lucas uses B&W N802s all around so that is what the director intended - not a $199.00 Wall Mart Surround sound system...I'm sure George would like you have 2 N802s to get by with. And if the current UHF #69 is remotely correct about surround then I know he'd rather have you listen to 2 N802s over a $199.00 surround package --- or even the 1k Energy Take 5. If the speakers is not identical it is not matched - period. Close perhaps.
    Yes, but only one of the studios at Skywalker Sound uses B&Ws, their other dubbing stages use other monitoring equipment, so who knows what Lucas actually uses. Again, there's a huge difference between a worst case scenario like a $200 WalMart all-in-one system, and a surround package that you can piece together for the $4,000 that a pair of Nautilus 802s would cost. At $4,000, there are plenty of excellent options that anyone can go with and find some acceptable listening. Whether or not to devote all of that budget into two speakers or five is up to the listener. If multichannel sources are at all on the menu, then the playback is compromised with only two speakers, no matter how good they are, especially if you're talking about options at the $4,000 price point.

    Using identical speakers all the way around is of course an ideal scenario, however for a home theater, floorstanding speakers like the 802s are not the best option for surround use because of the variety of multichannel soundtracks that exist. Dolby's guidelines specify that a surround setup that will be used for both movies and multichannel music should have the speakers elevated above ear level to diffuse the sound with those soundtracks that have more ambient effects with minimal separation mixed into the surrounds (i.e. movies that were originally released without split surrounds or that used the old five screen channels plus one surround channel setup, rather than the more modern three screen channel, two split surround channel, plus subwoofer channel setup that got introduced with Apocalypse Now in 1979). This setup provides just enough diffusion while preserving the directional cues with more aggressively mixed 5.1 soundtracks. Using bookshelf speakers as the surrounds gives you the best flexibility for positioning the surrounds since floorstanding speakers are not easy to elevate to what Dolby recommends. In most cases, mixing floorstanding speakers up front and timbre matched bookshelf speakers as surrounds works great.

  22. #22
    RGA
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    Well you know you won't get agreement from me because Multi-channel has not proven itself to me nor as a staying entity in high demand - at elast not In British Columbia - a wealthy Province - to you it has so that is fine. Degree of step- up in performance is subjective. Would I take 5 B&W 602S3s all around for the same money as two AN K? No because 95% of what is available is 2 channel music and music quality in movies or 2 channel SACD is to me far far superior than what the 602S3 or Paradigm Studio 40 can put out. If multi-channel were critical then that's different - but then I would also have to put up with a mid level receiver most likely to keep the cost down which to me further greatly hampers the sound - again I know you think receivers give up next to nothing to separates so your oipinion will be different from mine.

    Simply a philisophical difference in approach - that is why there is lots of stuff to buy and why 2 channel is not dead. When I started out in grade 12 I saved money from a job and I had 2grand. My friend's were out buying used cars - like 30 year old Valients or Honda Matics (those early rust-buckets. My attitude was I can either own a beater for 2k or buy a pretty nice stereo system and take the bus.

    My philosphy still holds that I can do 2 channel very very right or do home theater half assed and take to me a big drop in quality in 95% of what I would listen to of 2 channel. I set my self up in a good postion of being patient this way becase I can add at later dates to convert what I have to multi-channel should it fully take off. The problem I see is that if matching rear speakers cannot be used because Dolby says that is bad then it proves my earlier points about matching rear speakers. The N805 and the N803 sound nothing alike - same drivers or not they sound little alike - the tonal timbral structure of the N802 or N803 is simply not the same at all despite using the same tweeters and materials - The 40 and 100 from Paradigm sound nothing alike either for that matter - so using an entirely different make of rear speaker will also not sound the same. The AN E has more bass than the K but there are differences in dynamics power and room filling warmth - while all of the speakers have a "house" sound they are not "matched" and manufacturers stating that to me can be viewed as a scam to get you to buy their speakers - just my opinion...it is either a match or it is not. So dolby says not to match the rears basically.

    I don't have any problem with any of this because I already said that for movies the rear effects have little impact and 2 speakers properly set-up provide the wow factor from the rear wall reflections. If newer movies than Saving Private Ryan don't have it on the mix then I guess you will need rears.

    Now I've been referring mainly to movies not multi-channel music so remember that this is what I've been targeting with my post. I'm not in anyway discrediting multi-channel movies or music - just that if I personally weight 95% of my system to 2 channel then i will invest most ofmy resources to get that as prestine as possible while being able to grow without having to trade speakers. If I start with 5.1 all at once and it's just "O.K." then when I want to upgrade I take a huge loss and have to basically start from scratch.

    Indeed, I have kept my Wharfedales and decided to buy a receiver simply because the speakers are more or less full range and I can get by without a sub for home theater. Now i need to buy some rear speakers - and as you know I want to spend the LEAST I can possibly get away with - and there is no way to match a center speaker.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails paradigm HTIB...-wharfedale-v.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    just that if I personally weight 95% of my system to 2 channel then i will invest most ofmy resources to get that as prestine as possible while being able to grow without having to trade speakers.
    If you are starting from this point then yeah, I'd agree with almost everything that you say. 2 Channel music is your priority and you are willing to live with "good enough" for home theater. For others the percentage may be reversed and they would be willing to live with "good enough" for 2 channel music (not that a $200 WalMart "surround" system is going to be "good enough" at anything - but that's not a fair comparison).

    In the $2000 range it wouldn't be difficult to put together a speaker system that is good at both 2 and 5.1 channel playback - not as good as yours at 2 channel, but pretty darn good and certainly a viable alternative for somebody who places less importance on 2 channel vs. 5.1 than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I already said that for movies the rear effects have little impact and 2 speakers properly set-up provide the wow factor from the rear wall reflections.
    Here's where I disagree with you (but again, this all goes back to your "good enough" feeling about movie playback). IMO the "wow factor" has nothing to do with it. It's all about getting immersed in a movie - and to me that means when it's raining in the movie it sounds like it is raining in the room, or if in a suspensful scene the character looks up when they hear something that is coming from behind the seating position, that's where I should hear it too. You just can't do this stuff as well with a 2 channel setup, and that's where I place my 95% weight.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well you know you won't get agreement from me because Multi-channel has not proven itself to me nor as a staying entity in high demand - at elast not In British Columbia - a wealthy Province - to you it has so that is fine. Degree of step- up in performance is subjective. Would I take 5 B&W 602S3s all around for the same money as two AN K? No because 95% of what is available is 2 channel music and music quality in movies or 2 channel SACD is to me far far superior than what the 602S3 or Paradigm Studio 40 can put out. If multi-channel were critical then that's different - but then I would also have to put up with a mid level receiver most likely to keep the cost down which to me further greatly hampers the sound - again I know you think receivers give up next to nothing to separates so your oipinion will be different from mine.
    Multichannel not in high demand? What do you think DVDs are? It's the DVD format that's driven the massive shift to multichannel systems the last few years. All this demand for HTIB systems has come about because of the multichannel soundtracks that come with DVDs. I hardly see any demand for entry level two-channel systems. High end stores now stay in business by offering complete system installation services, and nearly all of this business is multichannel. Out of the high end audio stores that have gone out of business the last couple of years around here (at least five by my own count), all but one of them dealt almost exclusively in two-channel audio gear. And if you're talking about multichannel music, music DVDs (along with TV shows) are the fastest growing segment in the DVD market.

    To me, the difference between the Studio 40 and other options that I heard in the $2,000 range were audible, but not so significant as to justify losing multichannel capability to get that extra improvement. Like I said, you're not going to step down to monophonic playback so that you can go with a higher level Audio Note model, and for me, reserving my entire budget for two-channel playback is an equally futile exercise given the source material out there.

    And no, I don't agree that "receivers give up next to nothing to separates"; I've always said that separates are a step up from midlevel receivers, but whether or not that step up is worth the 4x price differential is an entirely different question.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    My philosphy still holds that I can do 2 channel very very right or do home theater half assed and take to me a big drop in quality in 95% of what I would listen to of 2 channel. I set my self up in a good postion of being patient this way becase I can add at later dates to convert what I have to multi-channel should it fully take off. The problem I see is that if matching rear speakers cannot be used because Dolby says that is bad then it proves my earlier points about matching rear speakers. The N805 and the N803 sound nothing alike - same drivers or not they sound little alike - the tonal timbral structure of the N802 or N803 is simply not the same at all despite using the same tweeters and materials - The 40 and 100 from Paradigm sound nothing alike either for that matter - so using an entirely different make of rear speaker will also not sound the same. The AN E has more bass than the K but there are differences in dynamics power and room filling warmth - while all of the speakers have a "house" sound they are not "matched" and manufacturers stating that to me can be viewed as a scam to get you to buy their speakers - just my opinion...it is either a match or it is not. So dolby says not to match the rears basically.
    I don't know how you interpret my statement to read "dolby says not to match the rears basically." Their entire guideline advises how to properly position the surround speakers if you're using the system for both movies and multichannel music. That's because movies and multichannel music are mixed somewhat differently, and have different optimal setups. Multichannel music sounds best when the surround speakers are lower towards the ear and pointed into the listening position, while a lot of movies (particularly older ones with less split surround activity) sound better with the surround speakers high mounted and diffused. Mounting a floorstanding speaker high enough to diffuse a monophonic surround track according to Dolby's guidelines and still have the drivers low enough to preserve the directional cues for newer movie soundtracks and multichannel music is not easy. Having five identical floorstanding speakers is fine for mixing studio, but for a home system that will play a combination of newer and older movies, along with multichannel music, it's not particularly practical. Even if you have five identical bookshelf speakers, the rear speakers are not going to be positioned right at ear level because of this.

    And I don't see how you note that the Nautilus and Studio lines sound "little alike" or "nothing alike"; it's not like the 805s are muted sounding with a choppy midrange, while the 802s are all about booming bass and blazing highs. Same thing with the 40 and 100. These models have subtle differences, especially in the lows, but it's not like I listen to the 40 and the 100 and suddenly think that I'm listening to an entirely different family of speakers. The similarities are more than close enough to use in a surround setup. I use the Studio 20 and 40 in a surround setup, and the stable front-to-back and side-to-side imaging and depth perception can be seamless with a good soundtrack, hardly what I would call "half-assed". That depth perception and imaging can be destroyed by something that does actually sound "little alike" but that difference would be more akin to the Studio 40 and the Bose 301s (which I had been using before adding the 20s), than the 20 and the 40 or the 40 and the 100.

    If you're waiting for multichannel to take off, that ship has already left the dock.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I don't have any problem with any of this because I already said that for movies the rear effects have little impact and 2 speakers properly set-up provide the wow factor from the rear wall reflections. If newer movies than Saving Private Ryan don't have it on the mix then I guess you will need rears.

    Now I've been referring mainly to movies not multi-channel music so remember that this is what I've been targeting with my post. I'm not in anyway discrediting multi-channel movies or music - just that if I personally weight 95% of my system to 2 channel then i will invest most ofmy resources to get that as prestine as possible while being able to grow without having to trade speakers. If I start with 5.1 all at once and it's just "O.K." then when I want to upgrade I take a huge loss and have to basically start from scratch.
    It's not discrediting so much as it doesn't sound to me like you've actually heard 5.1 the way it was supposed to be heard. As someone else has already noted, it's not about the wow factor, it's about making a movie more involving and engrossing. In a multichannel configuration, you're actually trying to diffuse and minimize the rear wall reflections because the surround speakers impart the ambient and directional cues by design rather than by random occurence (which is exactly what the rear wall reflections cause).

    With multichannel, you have to get the speaker positioning and the processor settings done right, which means setting up the surround speakers according to the Dolby guidelines, positioning the speakers to the ITU reference alignment, using the delay timing to compensate for any distance mismatches, using a SPL meter to correctly set the levels, etc. Two-channel is much more forgiving, and much easier to demo properly. A lot of high end stores that I've visited don't get this, and the demos just sounded wrong even with high end components all around.

  25. #25
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by erics0531
    If you are starting from this point then yeah, I'd agree with almost everything that you say. 2 Channel music is your priority and you are willing to live with "good enough" for home theater. For others the percentage may be reversed and they would be willing to live with "good enough" for 2 channel music (not that a $200 WalMart "surround" system is going to be "good enough" at anything - but that's not a fair comparison).

    In the $2000 range it wouldn't be difficult to put together a speaker system that is good at both 2 and 5.1 channel playback - not as good as yours at 2 channel, but pretty darn good and certainly a viable alternative for somebody who places less importance on 2 channel vs. 5.1 than you do.



    Here's where I disagree with you (but again, this all goes back to your "good enough" feeling about movie playback). IMO the "wow factor" has nothing to do with it. It's all about getting immersed in a movie - and to me that means when it's raining in the movie it sounds like it is raining in the room, or if in a suspensful scene the character looks up when they hear something that is coming from behind the seating position, that's where I should hear it too. You just can't do this stuff as well with a 2 channel setup, and that's where I place my 95% weight.
    I agree with you here as well. Obviously all or most of us live under a budget. If you place a higher value or even an equal value on home theater then it probably is best to try to start with a home theater system. What I'm saying is yoiu need to be caustious with YOUR OWN satisfaction level and where you think a good home theater system starts.

    Lets say you and I HYPTHETICALLY believe that a VERY good home theater sound system(not incluiding TV is $3000.00US or $4000.00Cdn. Let's assume that this is what we would be totally satisfied by and probably would not feel the need to upgrade - at least not for many years. Now if you're budget is only $1000.00 does it make sense to buy something you won't be happy with or buy your set-up in bits and pieces? I choose the latter - because we can add to it later.

    Now for me 2 channel music take priority and I found the right speakers and a very good amp(but not my ideal choice) but more than acceptable to me. Do I look at Audio Note or Reference 3a MM De Cpao and say well I love the sound of these speakers WAY more than the B&W N805 but because the N805 or other is made by a company that focuses most of their attention these days on Home theater I should make do with it?

    All of these speakers are at the same price range of around $2,000.00 - $2,500.00US. But B&W is the only one that makes a matching center speaker - so theoretcially someone more in HT would take the N805 and build a home theater around that. If you love the speaker for two channel then this is what I would recommend you do. But if you're like me and the AN K or De Capo are MUCH better then maybe you can't live with Surround geared speakers.

    I guess the issue I have is I am looking at music first and came to companies not gearing for Home theater. If it does music well it does everything well. But since no one disagrees about the IDEAL home theater which in my case would have Three AN K Spe across the front and preferably another two in back building in this way works best for me. Enter the budget problem. I don't want to spend $2200.00 on rear speakers and I don't want to spend $1100.00 for one AN K to put in the center. If home theater were CRITICAL to me I would do it - luckily Audio Note will sell one speaker.

    That is why me personally I have a second system ready to be built around the Marantz 4300 and Wharfedales. Basically I need to buy two rear speakers run it in phantom mode across the front until i find some sort of match - or sell the Wharfedales and buy three front speakers. I'm loathe to the latter because it's tough to find something I'll like more than the Wharfedales for a reasonable price. Though I have found speakers in certain areas which are superior in certain areas.

    Why start a second system. Well I dislike the sound of receivers - I don't want to run a receiver through my AN K. Ideally I want an Audio Note amp which are Single Ended Tubes - no home theater. The Wharfedales are ballsier than most subwoofers and rather than sell them for a song I may as well put em to h/t duty.

    As for rear effects. Perhaps it is my room speakers or just the recordings but i don't think people have even tried surround with to speakers with a quality amp and quality speakers. In the movie the Thing there is a helicopter scene at the beginning when the helicopter starts behind the listener passes overhead and all around. with TWO speakers the Helicopter sounds like it is flying from behind and overhead just as it does in a home theater. In lesser home theater this sound is more directional which is actually WORSE because I know it is a speaker blaring at me. Using the rear wall the helicopter freaked me out because i know there is NO SPEAKER there - COOL MAN. When a gunshot is fired from behind your head in Saving Private Ryan and from all around your head again with JUST two speakers it has a cool factor rather than hearing the tizz of a speaker. I have had rear speakers and H/T in the past and I hear the systems a fair amount.

    Part of this is because my listening chair is very close to a rear wall and this may not work as well in an open space - if your nowhere near a reflecting wall for a start you may not get any rear affect and definitely need a rear speaker.

    I'm not saying that two channel is BETTER for rear effects but in my room with my gear you DO get rear effects that totally sound as though you are immersed in a surround sound system. It may not be as good but then it is also free.

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