NooB Looking to Upgrade Bose Accusimass 10

[Copper]

Hi all this is my first post... Hmm how many of THESE posts do you see in a month.. too many to count I'm sure!


Ok straight up: I am a car forum guy. I like rare and fast cars and seem to dump my spare cash into that hobby and own an Audi RS6, BMW 850i, Ford Mustang 64 1/4 (K-Code) plus my wife's Lexus GX470 (yawn!).

I finally bought a house worthy of a "man cave" media room. I've got a 5-6 year old Kenwood receiver with 5.1 Dolby Digital, Bose Accusimass 10 dual-cubes (5 speakers), ditched the lame passive sub-woofer long ago and bought a Yamaha 45 watt powered sub.

I had the room custom-built with all Impact Accustics wiring (speakers, sub, etc.). I have jack plates in all the right places for a 7.1 system. I have canned lighting with dimmer controls for the room and a separate pair of small cans on a dimmer on either side of the plasma TV.

In December 2006 I bought a 55" Hitachi Plasma 1080P (55HDT79) TV. It looks amazing! The source is a Toshiba DVD with HDMI and 1080i upconversion. I'd like to go Blu-Ray in a year or so when the pricing comes down or use a Playstation 3 in the mean time... not sure the differences in a dedicated Blu-Ray drive and PS3 for a video source.. perhaps another post.


Anyway...

I am looking to go in stages to upgrade the sound system. This will be a dedicated home theater set-up.

1. I am looking to spend $1200-$1500 on a set of 7 speakers. I prefer a speaker that will be wall mounted on all sides (front, center, rear, side-fill) and not take up a ton of wallspace. Again, all of the speaker jacks are already installed. I will use my existing Yamaha subwoofer for now, so I don't think I need the low-end capability in the speakers (like a floor standing set). The jack plates were mounted next to a stud, so I can install a heavier speaker if needed. Also, I need to make sure that there is a nice wall kit available with the speakers selected. I don't know if I need different speakers for the center vs.front? What about front vs. rear? I have seen some larger center speakers that enhance the voice quanlity and are larger. Is it best to purchase a "matched set"? I have not seen a lot of 7.1 speaker systems for sale as a set.

2. Next I will be looking to purchase a $1000-$1500 receiver dedicated for home theater with 7.1 capability. I don't have the budget for it now but wanted to note this so that the speakers I purchase now can handle this upgrade later. I'd like to future-proof my speakers and hang on to them for 5-7 years like I did with the Bose 10's. I'm sure with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD the encoding will now allow for 7.1 surround and I want to be prepared for this new trend.


Thank you in advance. I'm glad I found this forum.

[audio_dude]

ok dude, when you hear some real NON-BOSE speakers you'll be amazed...

ok, so does your speaker budget include a sub too? If so, i'd recommend something from HSU or SVS. You'd be best to build your system in stages to get the best possible. Start with 2.1 or 3.1 (left right and center +sub) then buy 2 more for 5.1 surround, and finally, another 2 for full 7.1

I'm gonna recommend something like the new paradigm mini-monitors, plus the CC-290 center for front. then maybe atom-monitors for left right surround and ADP-190's or 390's for rear surrounds.

Hope this helps!

[Copper]

Budget does NOT include the subwoofer. I will upgrade that later if needed. It is pretty powerful now and I have it turned down.


Ok, so starting with Front Right, Front Left and Center is a good idea. Then on to the two rears and two sides (my receiver does not support 7.1 anyway).


I will search for the speakers you are recommending and see what type of reviews and pricing are available.


So I noticed that you are recommending a component set-up that included different speakers for different areas. Very cool. I thought that would be the case (my Dad was a huge audiophile back in the day and made his own hi-fi, etc. he always said to buy a specific component to get the right sound).

[Dusty Chalk]

Also someone recently posted some nice on-walls from...(wanders off to look)...dagnabit, I don't remember...I want to say Nightflier posted a review...ah, here it is -- the Weberns.

Don't know if they come with wall brackets.

Also look at the Onix X-LS, I know they come with wall brackets, but I can't seem to get their site (av123.com?) to come up right now. They're supposed to be the best in their price bracket, and I think it leaves you well within your budget.

[Resident Loser]

Bose Accusimass 10 dual-cubes (5 speakers), ditched the lame passive sub-woofer long ago and bought a Yamaha 45 watt powered sub.

...how did you manage that? BTW, the Bose bass module is neither a sub-woofer nor passive...

jimHJJ(...jus' wunnerin'...)

[audio_dude]

Well, if you don't need a sub then you can just move up the line with the paradigms... The best thing is, is that all the speakers are matching timbres, so you can mix and match and it'll all work. Get the best you can afford, you'll always be happier.

I can recommend a Denon AVR-3806 as a receiver, it falls right in your budget and has gotten some rave reviews. I really love denon and use a DRA-825RA as a stereo amp right now.

Check it out.

[nightflier]

Also someone recently posted some nice on-walls from...(wanders off to look)...dagnabit, I don't remember...I want to say Nightflier posted a review...ah, here it is -- the Weberns.

The brackets are not included in the base price. They cost an extra $75, but they are very well made. Anyhow, I was able to negotiate on the price for these.

And yes, they would be a huge improvement over any Bose setup. I know, because they had them set up in the same showroom as one of the Bose systems (forgot which one) because someone else was listening to them (they ended up buying them too, unfortunately).

[westcott]

I will not recommend any particular speaker but I will try to help you decide the best route. I too am a car nut, and so an analogy along these lines may be in order. As you know, some people drive a car to get from point A to point B, and that is the extent of their relationship with their car. Others, like you and me, take pride in our cars and just any old car will not do. We want something that is going to look good and provide a level of performance that exceeds most peoples expectations or needs. Good speakers are like a good short block, it is the heart of the system and if you skimp here, you will only pay for it later as you add horsepower. Same with audio, if you skimp on the speakers, no amount or quality of amps, receivers, or other audio components you add to the equation is going to improve the limits of the speakers.

I suggest getting three speakers of higher quality (usually means more money) and then you can add on to that, as your budget allows. You will still get awesome performance with three or five good speakers, compared to the speakers you own now and you will be happier in the long run. If you get the bug, I am sure your budget will expand and you will not have to start over. You can always use your Bose for rear surrounds until you can afford to upgrade later and you feel it adds to the experience.

Just like a car, once you have a good short block, you can add whatever heads, cams, manifold, turbo, supercharger, or exhaust to make it perform even better without blowing the engine.

Hope this helps.

[flippo]

I just bought a pair of the omnisat v2 speakers and wall mounted them. They sound very good with a wide soundstage. If you get a chance to listen to some of these you may like them. Might not be everybodies cup of tea. They are well made and will blow Bose away.
here is a review of a mirage system. Read the whole article and he also tests the system without the towers and uses just the satellites. http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorl...ers/506mirage/

hope this helps

Phil

[topspeed]

Another gearhead in the fold! Welcome!

I like Westcott's analogy and let's be honest, with the stable you've got, you can afford a better budget. I realize everyone weighs their priorities differently, but if you've gone to the trouble of building a dedicated room, you should invest accordingly. Great speakers will give you enjoyment far beyond the 5-7 years you are expecting. The speakers I'm listening to right now were purchased in the '80's for $2K and they are still going strong. True, $2K isn't pocket change for a pair of speakers, but on a cost per year basis, it's safe to say the return on investment has been exceptional.

The most important thing you can do at this point is to audition as many speakers as you can find. These B Tech brackets will hold just about any monitor you can find, so mounting isn't a problem. Brands you might want to consider include B&W, Paradigm, Energy, Monitor Audio, Von Schweikert, Vienna, Epos, and Focal. Some are easier to find than others and all have their strengths and weeknesses. You simply need to decide what sounds best to you. Most dedicate a majority of their budget to the front stage, meaning the mains and cc. In HT, there simply isn't a lot of surround information. However, if you plan on multi-channel hi-rez audio, you might want to allocate more funds for the surrounds as well. To drive them, Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo, and Yamaha are the brands usually bandied about. Rotel, Cambridge Audio, NAD, and ARCAM provide alternatives the usual Japanese stuff.

Hope this helps.

[Copper]

Thanks for the replies. In response to the Bose setup I have now, I have the Bose cubes modified with RCA connectors stripped to accept the in-wall speaker wiring. I have each speaker connected directly to the reciever with the low-pass going to the Yamaha subwoofer so I don't blow the cubes. The rather large Bose connection hub was also a subwoofer and I think a crossover. It is not a powered unit however. These speakers were purchased over 10 years ago and was one of the first Bose surround units on the market. I know that the newer setups now come with a powered subwoofer, but mine is not. The cube speakers by themselves are actually pretty decent with a powered subwoofer and the reciever correctly set up.

So, I think I'll start with an investment in the front (3) speakers, right front, left front and center. I was concerned about using a bookshelf speaker due to size and weight, but the brackets may be the way to go.

What about the Axiom in-wall speakers like the W22, W3 for fronts and the W-150 for center. I like the clean look of the in-wall install. Should I just stick with a bookshelf loudspeaker and mount it on the wall? Not the cleanest look, but it may do.

Also, my father-in-law has a pair or very large JBL floorspeakers, Model CF150. They are about 3 feet tall and at least 2 feet deep with large subs, mids, etc. He wants to give them to me since they are just too large for his dedicated dance/entertainment room. They are really huge! Worth the trouble or skip it? They have a 15" woofer, mid and tweeter with double fuses, crossovers all black. 325W capability. He said they are really loud which can mean anything and expensive a few years ago.


I'll take a look at the Denon unit and others. That will be the next upgrade.

[westcott]

Thanks for the replies. In response to the Bose setup I have now, I have the Bose cubes modified with RCA connectors stripped to accept the in-wall speaker wiring. I have each speaker connected directly to the reciever with the low-pass going to the Yamaha subwoofer so I don't blow the cubes. The rather large Bose connection hub was also a subwoofer and I think a crossover. It is not a powered unit however. These speakers were purchased over 10 years ago and was one of the first Bose surround units on the market. I know that the newer setups now come with a powered subwoofer, but mine is not. The cube speakers by themselves are actually pretty decent with a powered subwoofer and the reciever correctly set up.

So, I think I'll start with an investment in the front (3) speakers, right front, left front and center. I was concerned about using a bookshelf speaker due to size and weight, but the brackets may be the way to go.

What about the Axiom in-wall speakers like the W22, W3 for fronts and the W-150 for center. I like the clean look of the in-wall install. Should I just stick with a bookshelf loudspeaker and mount it on the wall? Not the cleanest look, but it may do.

Also, my father-in-law has a pair or very large JBL floorspeakers, Model CF150. They are about 3 feet tall and at least 2 feet deep with large subs, mids, etc. He wants to give them to me since they are just too large for his dedicated dance/entertainment room. They are really huge! Worth the trouble or skip it? They have a 15" woofer, mid and tweeter with double fuses, crossovers all black. 325W capability. He said they are really loud which can mean anything and expensive a few years ago.


I'll take a look at the Denon unit and others. That will be the next upgrade.

I am not familiar with that particular model but that does not mean much. A quick search and they are still getting $700+ a pair. I am a horn man so i tend to like the sound of JBL equipment, especially the vintage stuff. But, don't take my word. Listen to them yourself and see if the are what you are looking for. Now getting a center channel to timbre match may be a challenge but I am sure someone at JBL\Harman International can lead you in the right direction if there is a solution. I almost bought a 5.1 system from JBL before I bought my present system but unfortunately, the speakers I wanted only came in black and my wife 86ed that pretty quick. JBL has been around a long time too, and for good reason. They have supplied equipment for the professional arena and home use for a very long time. Long story short, they are not your mothers Bose system.

P.S. Do not go the in wall route unless your significant other says that is the only way you are getting a home theater. A dedicated home theater deserves stand alone speakers. Sheetrock and wall studs are no match for a well engineered and constructed speaker cabinet.

[topspeed]

There are actually some decent in-walls these days. Boston, B&W, and Paradigm all make in-walls and Von Schweikert's VSX model should be out by the end of summer. According to Geoff Cintron, a moderator and reviewer at AR, these Cambridge Soundwork's Newton in-walls are terrific...this coming from a guy with Maggie 3.6R's, so it's safe to say he knows what he's talking about. Don't get me wrong, you still have a much larger selection with monitors (and likely better sound quality), however the manufacturers are trying to make the speakers much more lifestyle friendly. We all know that Bose sells their Lifestyle systems for two reasons:
1) The name
2) The size

It sure isn't the sound.

[Copper]

First of all, you all rock. I'm the go to guy on some other forums. If you need any info on a 12 cylinder BMW M70 engine, I'm your man!

I also did a search on the JBL CF150 speakers and they are expensive and get rave reviews.. mostly from people using them for music only. What about home theater?

This is my room, so I can do whatever I want as far as equipment, my wife is set upstairs in the living room and kitchen with Samsung DLP and LCD. I have a (gasp!) Bose 321 GS for the basic DVD player/receiver for my daughter's stuff and a light (read: chick flick) movie.

Here is another NooB question:

If I do use the JBL CF150 speakers for my front left/right, they have 15" subwoofers so how do I drive those and then not blow my surround/centers since I will have to turn off the low-pass that is currently driven by the subwoofer? Will my Kenwood send bass to all the speakers? I'm not clear on how this set up would work?

Here's what I am thinking:

Use the (2) JBLs for left/right front. Invest in a really nice center speaker since I'll get the JBL's for free. Use my existing Bose speakers for the left/right surround and when I upgrade to a better and more powerful 7.1 receiver (vs. my current 5.1), use the front left/right Bose speakers for the center rear left/right fills.

Over the next year or so I will upgrade the Bose surrounds to something better.

1. Will this configuration work?

2. Will I blow the Bose speakers by using the JBLs for bass and not the Yamaha subwoofer?

3. What would be a good recommendation for a center speaker that will not be overpowered by the front left/right JLBs? I can contact JBL and ask them as well.

4. Is there a way to just use the JBLs for front center/left/right? Will it sound good?

5. Will it sound better then what I currently have for a home theater system?


Whew! So I'm getting closer.


Also, to throw in a curveball, my friend just upgraded his speakers from Carver TS441 7.1 to Polk (I think). He is ALSO willing to give me these speakers for free if I come pick them up. I have no clue if these are any good. I wish he would have told me about them before the Polks were installed so I could come over and listen, but he is in Florida. I just happen to mention I was upgrading from Bose and he offered. Any idea of these are any good? I did a search and there are not any reviews on the Carvers. Also did they go out of business? Looks like some liquidators are selling them pretty cheap as well.

Should I take these and use them for the surrounds instead of the Bose cubes?


TIA

[Dusty Chalk]

Definitely go for the JBL's, they are good speakers.

If I do use the JBL CF150 speakers for my front left/right, they have 15" subwoofers so how do I drive those and then not blow my surround/centers since I will have to turn off the low-pass that is currently driven by the subwoofer? Will my Kenwood send bass to all the speakers? I'm not clear on how this set up would work?

You bypass the sub by setting the speaker size to "large" on your front left and right, if your Kenwood does that sort of thing.

Use the (2) JBLs for left/right front. Invest in a really nice center speaker since I'll get the JBL's for free. Use my existing Bose speakers for the left/right surround and when I upgrade to a better and more powerful 7.1 receiver (vs. my current 5.1), use the front left/right Bose speakers for the center rear left/right fills.

Sounds like a plan!

You might have minor problems (like IIRC the JBL's will be more sensitive than anything else), but it'll get you started in the right direction, definitely.

Also, if your Kenwood allows this, you may even want to do a "phantom center" (just tell your Kenwood that you have no center, and it automatically redirects the center channel audio to the front left and right). Not everyone is a big fan of phantom centers, but (a) I am, and (b) it'll eliminate any sensitivity mismatch problems.

[audio_dude]

yeah, take the JBL's and the Carvers, use the JBL's as fronts and fill in the rest with the carvers. Then, first upgrade the center channel, then the rear surrounds, then buy the new receiver, then finally add the last speakers...

[westcott]

The Carvers are not the perfect solution but I would not hesitate to incorporate them as rear surround over the Bose any day, especially if they will no cost you anything. The Carvers go for around $150 each and will more than suffice until you decide to get matching JBL's.

I suggest a net search for timbre or timbre matching to get a better handle on why we recommend speakers from the same mfg and preferably from the same series if you were buying something new. If they are donated, then live with the compromise until you have the funds and\or get the audio bug!

Be careful, once bitten, you may find your cars spending less time on the road and more time sitting in the garage.

[nightflier]

While in-wall and flat on-wall speakers have some shortcomings, the alternative of hanging regular bookshelves on the wall has its share of drawbacks as well when used for HT. This is because most people typically sit pretty low to watch a movie so the speakers have to be mounted lower as well. If these mounted speakers stick out 20" that is not only an eyesore, but also makes the usable space in the room that much smaller. Granted, it may sound better, but there are alternatives from companies who have many years experience.

I have not heard the Axiom in/on wall speakers, but I understand that they use the same drivers, configuration, and crossovers as the M22ti and M3ti bookshelves. The difference being that the cabinet size is much smaller. I would presume that this would be audible, especially in the bass. But I can tell you that the bookshelves are outstanding performers at their price-point and have a slew of online reviews to back them up. I own them with the VP150 for the center and QS4 for surrounds, and I was very happy with them. I have since upgraded to the Vienna Weberns, but those are significantly more expensive as well.

[audio_dude]

if i'm not mistaken, the axiom in-walls are self contained, meaning they have their own box and do not used the wall cavity as the enclosure.

[jocko_nc]

Damn. Get the JBL's, if you don't want them others will. I understand those JBL's are newer, not particularly "vintage". However, they seem to be of a vintage bloodline. ???.

From experience, using them in a HT may be require quite a lot of effort and become quite a massive project. The result, however, should be outstanding and noteworthy. You mention being a car nut, some of which are vintage. What would be more outstanding than a vintage home theatre?

The problem is voicing the center, and to a lesser extent the rears, to the JBL's. I believe they are old-school big-box jobs, probably close to 100 dB. Real screamers, which is cool for HT. Those 15 inch woofers are going to sound FAT, unlike anything else. If you go this route, you will be looking for other vintage JBL's to fill out the room. Best bet for a center would be another CF150. That's a lot of speaker up front! (Did I mention that FAT sound?) For rears, you could look at the smaller ones from the same family. Ebay is your friend. You could get crazy and look at a DIY project using scavenged matching components for an in-wall or corner application. ???. You are in luck, there is a huge following for JBL equipment and information is plentiful. You could very easily fall into a user group of people who would help you out along the way. Vintage HiFi is cool.

I mention all this because I recently switched to Klipsch. The old ones, first model Heresys from the mid 70's. They are a hoot, I got seriously bit by the vintage bug. They really, really crank. Heresy is the small model, but as large as I can accomodate in my setup. Thus, I am using them as satellites with dual subwoofers. Heresy with a subwoofer is a pretty nice combination. Problem, I had no way to place a center channel (Heresy) and had to go to extreme. With some help, I managed a DIY that voices very closely a Heresy but in a configuration I could live with. Rears are still on the drawing board, however they cannot be horns like the others. It a huge, ongoing project, but well worth it, IMO. They sound completely unlike the usual HT setup, powerful, punchy and crunchy with a midrange presence that will peel paint. Furthermore, it is one-of-a-kind and I created it. If you like a project...

I'll try to post a couple of pics...

Also... I say "fat" sound from the big woofers because that is how they sound. Note, they are not "subs", rather full-range woofers with crossovers that go pretty high up into the midrange. They are not about high excursion and ultra low response, they are about wram, powerful bass. In that regard, all that surface area cannot be beat. Many of the true old-school designs used pro-audio drivers, I'd bet theatres to this day use the same. My Heresys roll off like crazy in the low-end and have little deep "bass" by modern standards. That is where the subs take over. They sure do kick, however.

jocko

[jocko_nc]

Here is the HT setup with Heresys and subs. Also center channel.

[topspeed]

No questions on the M70. How 'bout S54?

My philosophy has always been that a speaker that does music well can do HT well, but not vice versa. If the JBL's are great at music reproduction, they will excell in HT duty. Jocko's idea about a DIY center is actually pretty inspired. You can find JBL drivers all over the place and it might be a fun project. Otherwise, check with Harman and see what they suggest. Just make sure you get a spl meter (most use Radio Shack) and test disc to calibrate your rig. All of those speakers are going to have different efficiencies and like someone said, the JBL's are probably going to be waaaaay up there. If you don't calibrate this sucker, the mains will simply overpower everything else.

Good luck and have fun. Building the rig is almost as much fun as enjoying it .

[jocko_nc]

Like Topspeed said, efficiency is a killer with those old speakers. You'll need to match that volume (and sound) to pull it off. The old school pro-audio type drivers are simply LOUD. Modern woofers are different animals and cannot keep up. Heresy uses a 12.00 and are the weakest of the old Klipsch. The 15.00's in the Cornwall are considerably louder. I was able to get close with two 8.00 relatively high-efficiency woofers (Dayton Series II) in parallel, my target was 96 dB. Pro drivers on the market are typically 12.00's, perhaps 10.00's, I did not have the room.

Get it right, the sound is great.

You'll still want a sub for home theatre, IMO.

jocko

[Copper]

Hi All,


Thank you for the replies and great advice.


Here is what I have decided to do for now:


1. Take and set-up the Carver 7 matching speakers for now and use my Yamaha subwoofer. I'll pick them up in about a week.

2. Go ahead and take the JBL's from my father-in-law (I may trade him for my Bose system since he wants something smaller and is just playing music).


I'll see how the Carver's sound first since they are smaller and can mount on the walls (I won't mount the front's right away. I have some speaker stands that are close the the correct height to get an idea how the system sounds.

I'll then hook up the JBL speakers and see how they sound, play around with the receiver settings as suggested and see if they overpower the HT speakers or not. They are really big which may or may not be to my taste. I almost need to just set them up and see. My media room is not huge. 13 feet wide by 18 feet long. I'll be sitting approx 16 feet away from the plasma TV and front speakers. The depth of the JBL speaker is 18.94 inches. The depth of my TV stand is 17 inches. It's close. I plan on either upgrading to a different TV stand or mounting the TV on the wall and routing everything to a rack inside a drywall box the contractor had to build for some piping. I'm not sure. If i mount to the wall, then the JBLs will look waaaay too big. If I stick with a TV stand/rack for the audio equipment, then they may be look alright.


The final issue with the JBL's is that they are only 35 inches high. My wire jackplate is 43 inches high at the mid-way point of the jack plate where I currently have the Bose speakers mounted. The wires will be exposed and have to connect down. I suppose I can place each speaker on a floor stand? Any recommendations on where I can find something like that?


Does this seem like a reasonable plan?

[audio_dude]

35 inches high?? doesn't sound like a JBL floorstander... is it a bookshelf one?

ok, if you want risers for them, the cheapest thing would be to make them yourself.
(It you really want to be cheap, buy some cinder blocks, and paint them to match your speakers.)