Moniter series vs Studio series

[mikert456]

Im getting the upgrade bug and im looking for new speakers. Im a paradigm fan and thus I'm considering the studio series. At this time I have this setup.
Denon 3801 105 watts per channel
Arcam cd62 cd player
Paradigm moniter 90p mains powered towers three 8" woofers 175watts
two pw2200 subs 12" 250 watts
toshiba dvd player
ADP 370 surrounds
CC370 center

I find that in my present room that the bass can become muddy and imaging struggles to stay in one position. Actually ive tried this setup in three different rooms and each time the same results. Might be the denon I don't know. However it doesn't matter because I want new speakers any way(going to put one system upstairs). Heres what I want . Improved imaging, although my current system can image somewhat it not always accurate vocals shift as does kick drum and such. Bigger soundstage, moniter series can go outside the speakers but not very much or well. Better more robust bass, this setup becomes very sloppy in kick drum and there seems to be NO weight what so ever,: (however this system does go floor rattling low) . I like the drums and thus really enjoy the weight of the kick drum, the crisp snap of the snare drum and the highs of the cymbols and high hat thus my new speakers must be excellent at reproducing these sounds. As well my new speakers are going to have to be dynamic. This bring me to my question, which is are the studio series speakers more adept to reproduce what I just ask for or Im I kidding my self? Will the denon have enough power to run the studio 100's or 60's? Is there much difference in the studio version 2 to version 3. Should I look at a better sub to reproduce the kick drum I want that chest thumping experience when listening to rock? Or should I look to another make of speakers for what I want. I know a lot of you are going to say setup is my problem but trust me Ive had my system for almost two years and i've moved my speakers into every position I could and each way has failed me. Maybe my denon is to blame maybe I will replace it to. Any comments whould be much apprecited thank you.

[Woochifer]

Your system might be a case of too many cooks. You got a lot of self-powered bass drivers, and in these situations you'll typically get a lot of boom for the buck. But, your comments about lack of weight indicate that you might also have some bass cancellations going on at your listening position, which you can try to remedy by repositioning the speakers and/or the subwoofers, or moving your listening position to a different location. Another problem with four separate powered bass drivers is that you have to adjust the gain for each of them.

The Studio series is noticeably more refined and has better overall balance than the Monitors. The Monitors are brasher sounding and lot more aggressive, but also more uneven overall. I'm generally not a fan of powered tower speakers. The ones I've heard are overly boomy sounding, and the middle of the wall is usually not the best place for optimal bass performance. So, maybe just switching to a passive main speaker and more carefully setting up the subwoofers will give you the sound you're looking for.

I would actually suggest that you do some lower frequency measurements. Your bass might also sound lean because the overall level is actually lower than it should be, but peaks at certain frequencies make the overall sound boomy if you raise the levels any higher. Boominess is often caused by severe peaks at specific frequencies, and you can eliminate those peaks through room treatments and/or parametric equalizers (like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer). Once you eliminate the peaking, you can raise the overall bass levels, resulting in a fuller and more even sound in the lows.

The Studios are very versatile performers, and your Denon should have more than enough juice to really crank them through the motions. The 100 I've heard is more taxing on amps, but the 3801 should still have enough for those beasts. If you go with the 100s, you may not even need a subwoofer. Depending on the size of your room, you might also want to start with one subwoofer like the Servo-15. Going with one subwoofer makes it easier to optimally position the unit and use a parametric equalizer to correct for room acoustics.

I own the Studio 40 v.2s and did an extensive listening to the v.3 versions recently. My impressions are posted below.

http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...966@.ef9e447/8
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...967@.ef9e447/0

[RGA]

If it were me I would live with what you have until you can move to a high end speaker manufacturer. The Studio Series is solid, it's certainly an improvement over the monitor line but it also shares some issues.

Sounds like you have a subwoofer so I would be looking at standmounts with a glorious mid-band and high frequency response over bass. The Reference 3a MM De Capo or The Audio Note AN K SPe represent two of many very good standmounts that are a significantly LARGE step up from what Paradigm is making...both offer up far superior high frequency response without the etched treble and the "handoff" between drivers is much better executed.

You'll find bass response from these standmounts to be very good in their own right as well. The AN K has more dynamic impact - If positioned in a corner they are rated at 93db sensitive 8ohm and 36hz-20khz - close to a wall not in a corner your looking at 90db and 50hz - 20khz. The De Capo has a sweet balance in the mid band and offers a huge scale as well. The De Capo goes for $2500.00US and the AN K goes for $1950.00US.

I would run a better amp than the Denon with any of the speakers you're talking about. After listening to the Denon 3803 the other week, I sufffered sticker shock. It was hampered by very poor dynamic impact and a totally lifeless and unengaging sound to my ear. It sounded like musicians put their hand in front of their mouth..none of the wetness and detail that should be there. The amp section is weak in most of thee devices but the preamp is the culprit.

For movies it was not much better - for the money I'm not surprised they keep trying to fix it with the new number 3801 then 3802, 3803...three times is NOT a charm it would seem.

At least look for a used power amp. You can get Rotel or Adcoms for under $400.00 used to help out...preferably a preamp from somebody else as well.

[Woochifer]

I would run a better amp than the Denon with any of the speakers you're talking about. After listening to the Denon 3803 the other week, I sufffered sticker shock. It was hampered by very poor dynamic impact and a totally lifeless and unengaging sound to my ear. It sounded like musicians put their hand in front of their mouth..none of the wetness and detail that should be there. The amp section is weak in most of thee devices but the preamp is the culprit.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't have any proof to infer some kind of causal link like "the preamp is the culprit." Just say you don't like how it sounds (and even then, what were you comparing it to, and were you making an effort to control for any biases?) and leave it at that. Also, keep in mind that the Canadian distributors for Denon and Onkyo (among others) charge a premium above the normal exchange rates for their receivers. In the U.S., the 3803 lists for $1,100USD. I know that Yamaha keeps their Canadian pricing roughly at the normal exchange rate. Don't know about the others.

For movies it was not much better - for the money I'm not surprised they keep trying to fix it with the new number 3801 then 3802, 3803...three times is NOT a charm it would seem.

Please spare the conspiracy theories and inneuendo. ALL home theatre processor/receiver manufacturers update their products on at least a biannual basis. Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Marantz, Lexicon, Classe, Sunfire, Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, Sherwood, Technics, JVC you name it, they all do the same thing. I don't know a single manufacturer that tries to stay in business by not periodically revising and updating their products. They have to anyway because the DSP processors and digital components are almost always supplied by third party OEM vendors, and those parts that are in mass production change and get discontinued very quickly as the processing power increases and new designs are introduced. On the wholesale market, you'd be hard pressed to find processor chips without DPLII or DTS decoding. It is possible through other channels to get legacy processors, but then you're paying more, that's how commodity markets work. Why do you think so many new memory chips for computers more than five years old cost more than those for computers made within the last two years? It would be like building a computer with a Pentium II chip, rather than a Pentium 4. You could, but why would you want to?

So, even if Denon has such an emotional investment in the 3801 that they wanted to keep making it the same way with no changes, they wouldn't be able to because Analog Devices no longer makes the original SHARC processor that's in the 3801 (and several other mid to high end home theatre processors from three years ago), and the Analog Devices 96/24 DACs in that model have since been replaced by newer Burr-Brown 192/24 models.

Has nothing to do with having to continually remedy deficiencies. It's just keeping pace with what the market is demanding and developing, and everybody does this.

[RGA]

Also, keep in mind that the Canadian distributors for Denon and Onkyo (among others) charge a premium above the normal exchange rates for their receivers. In the U.S., the 3803 lists for $1,100USD. I know that Yamaha keeps their Canadian pricing roughly at the normal exchange rate. Don't know about the others.

That is about $1600.00CDN. I think it would be overpriced at $1100.00CDN.

Please spare the conspiracy theories and inneuendo. ALL home theatre processor/receiver manufacturers update their products on at least a biannual basis. Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Marantz, Lexicon, Classe, Sunfire, Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, Sherwood, Technics, JVC you name it, they all do the same thing. I don't know a single manufacturer that tries to stay in business by not periodically revising and updating their products.

.../...
Has nothing to do with having to continually remedy deficiencies. It's just keeping pace with what the market is demanding and developing, and everybody does this.

The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.

[TinHere]

That is about $1600.00CDN. I think it would be overpriced at $1100.00CDN.



The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.

I love my new receiver. It does everything I need, and has features I don't even use. I bought into a new "gimick" they call YPAO [Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer] that does a better job than I can in calibration. For the price I paid, the needs I have, and results I'm delighted with in both 2 channel and HT I can only glean from your comments that I'm a conned sheep. Of course these are conclusions of someone "duped" into buying speakers they never heard. Turned out to be one of the best purchases in my life. Did the same thing with a subwoofer. Things sound pretty good in my fool's paradise. Even people who have spent thousands more have said there would be little to be gained. It's not the best, but I hardly feel conned. Hmmmmm could that be the best con? I'm sure some think so, but then again we all make our choices to satisfy our own criteria and what is best for us is decided by each of us.

Seperates or receivers? It depends who's asking. I think it's the overkill of speakers in my small room that maginalizes the need to have seperates. I tried a power amp [Parasound 200w] and the only difference I heard was mitigated with turning the volume up on the receiver to play as loud as the amp. No higher highs or deeper bass or quicker transients. Of course you can say that's because the receiver was in the loop. I'm very happy with the processing but most of the listening comparisons were done with "no effect". YMMV.

RGA I know I've been at this awhile not to "get it". Receivers rock to a plug and play guy like me, and even some "audiophiles" use and like them.

Nice post Woochifer.

[Woochifer]

The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.

You may think the "market are sheep" but that would make you a wooly haired critter as well since you are part of the market as well. Unless you suddenly decide to live off the land and become totally self-sufficient, you're just as tied into markets as anybody else who lives in a capitalist country is.

How's it a scam to update and make changes to products? It happens in EVERY INDUSTRY. You add value (or perceived value) to a product or service in order to induce spending, and that spending generates multiplier impacts across the economy. If one business' perceived value is greater than that of another business, then market share shifts. The whole point of operating as a business is to induce spending. It's a different type of economy if businesses did not operate this way. If customers don't see value in these changes that get made to products, then they won't buy them. If they see value, then they do. It's pretty simple.

Denon updates the 3800 series roughly every 18 months, and other manufacturers have comparable update schedules. You can question the merit of these updates, but as with anything that relies on digital technology, a manufacturer can't stand still even if they wanted to because the processor chips and other internal components evolve so rapidly. As I said, Denon would not be able to make the 3801 today even if they wanted to because the most critical digital components in that model aren't made in quantity anymore.

And why would product updates constitute a scam get someone to trade in a 3801 for a 3803? The 3803 has numerous improvements in its functionality, connectivity, and format support. Are they enough to induce a current 3801 owner to upgrade? I would guess not in most cases. But, gosh it's a criminal act to try and improve a product, I mean, someone might actually CHOOSE to buy it! You also forgot about the possibility that the changes made with the 3803 are not targeted at current 3801 owners, but at people who don't currently own a 5.1 receiver and are looking to make the jump into home theatre. And with all of the other manufacturers aggressively updating their products, Denon had better keep up if they want to maintain their market position. It's called competition.

You can rant and rave about quality versus quantity, but people make purchases out of their own personal preferences, and all of the comments about how sheepish their perspective is won't change things. Give people credit for making choices based on what's important to them, rather than criticizing them for daring to have different priorities than you.

BTW, where's your information that the big three's market share dropped by 20 percent in one year? At the start of the year, I thought they had just under a 60 percent market share, and now they're suddenly at 40 percent? That's a pretty drastic shift and unprecedented I might add, especially in light of articles that I keep reading about how GM's incentive programs have helped them stop their market share erosion even at the expense of profitability. Even if you're referring to percentage of rather than straight percent points, that still equates to a 12 percent shift in market share. Again, unprecedented and typically a trend that takes more than a decade to manifest itself. I believe that in 1980, the big three market share was roughly 80 percent. Getting that share below 60 percent took about 20 years, and you're now saying that a 20 percent shift occurred in just one year? In statistical terms, that would constitute an outlier or anomaly. Think about it logically, rather than through the filter of wishful thinking.

And what's the basis of your information about separates and amps increasing their market share? It might be true, but when you're starting from a very small base, any percentage increase would look drastic on paper even if the actual market impact is limited. Right now, the market that's keeping a lot of independent stores afloat is home theatre installations, and those do indeed specify separates. But, if anything those stores that solely rely on high end equipment sales are increasingly endangered. I know of at least two high end stores in the Bay Area that have folded in the past year. The one thing they had in common was they were slow to add multichannel equipment to their product lines, and had product lines dominated by analog and two-channel separates. I guess it was emotionally satisfying to cling to principles, but in those cases it was also business suicide.

LP sales are indeed rising, but considering that their annual sales level in the U.S. is roughly two million units, that's still pretty low considering that just one Britney Spears album alone will sell five times that volume in CDs. But, I will add that LP sales were still outpacing SACD and DVD-A as of a year ago, but with all of the hybrid SACDs that have come out this year, I don't think that trend will hold up.

[mtrycrafts]

Good one. One must be careful how components are compared or else th eopinion is unreliable at best, worthless at most.

[mtrycrafts]

[QUOTE=mikert456]I find that in my present room that the bass can become muddy and imaging struggles to stay in one position.[QUOTE]

You may have speaker phase problems if imaging dances around and is unstable. Make sure youy are sending th epositive out from each channel to the positive terminal in the speakers.
If this doesn't work, you may want to reverse one side and check. Perhaps the internal wire is reversed in one speaker.

Your room should not have this effect on soundstage to make it move around.

Does this happen with all recordings or just some? Perhaps the recording is at fault?

You have to exhaust all possible causes before you jump off the bridge.