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  1. #1
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    Moniter series vs Studio series

    Im getting the upgrade bug and im looking for new speakers. Im a paradigm fan and thus I'm considering the studio series. At this time I have this setup.
    Denon 3801 105 watts per channel
    Arcam cd62 cd player
    Paradigm moniter 90p mains powered towers three 8" woofers 175watts
    two pw2200 subs 12" 250 watts
    toshiba dvd player
    ADP 370 surrounds
    CC370 center

    I find that in my present room that the bass can become muddy and imaging struggles to stay in one position. Actually ive tried this setup in three different rooms and each time the same results. Might be the denon I don't know. However it doesn't matter because I want new speakers any way(going to put one system upstairs). Heres what I want . Improved imaging, although my current system can image somewhat it not always accurate vocals shift as does kick drum and such. Bigger soundstage, moniter series can go outside the speakers but not very much or well. Better more robust bass, this setup becomes very sloppy in kick drum and there seems to be NO weight what so ever,: (however this system does go floor rattling low) . I like the drums and thus really enjoy the weight of the kick drum, the crisp snap of the snare drum and the highs of the cymbols and high hat thus my new speakers must be excellent at reproducing these sounds. As well my new speakers are going to have to be dynamic. This bring me to my question, which is are the studio series speakers more adept to reproduce what I just ask for or Im I kidding my self? Will the denon have enough power to run the studio 100's or 60's? Is there much difference in the studio version 2 to version 3. Should I look at a better sub to reproduce the kick drum I want that chest thumping experience when listening to rock? Or should I look to another make of speakers for what I want. I know a lot of you are going to say setup is my problem but trust me Ive had my system for almost two years and i've moved my speakers into every position I could and each way has failed me. Maybe my denon is to blame maybe I will replace it to. Any comments whould be much apprecited thank you.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Your system might be a case of too many cooks. You got a lot of self-powered bass drivers, and in these situations you'll typically get a lot of boom for the buck. But, your comments about lack of weight indicate that you might also have some bass cancellations going on at your listening position, which you can try to remedy by repositioning the speakers and/or the subwoofers, or moving your listening position to a different location. Another problem with four separate powered bass drivers is that you have to adjust the gain for each of them.

    The Studio series is noticeably more refined and has better overall balance than the Monitors. The Monitors are brasher sounding and lot more aggressive, but also more uneven overall. I'm generally not a fan of powered tower speakers. The ones I've heard are overly boomy sounding, and the middle of the wall is usually not the best place for optimal bass performance. So, maybe just switching to a passive main speaker and more carefully setting up the subwoofers will give you the sound you're looking for.

    I would actually suggest that you do some lower frequency measurements. Your bass might also sound lean because the overall level is actually lower than it should be, but peaks at certain frequencies make the overall sound boomy if you raise the levels any higher. Boominess is often caused by severe peaks at specific frequencies, and you can eliminate those peaks through room treatments and/or parametric equalizers (like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer). Once you eliminate the peaking, you can raise the overall bass levels, resulting in a fuller and more even sound in the lows.

    The Studios are very versatile performers, and your Denon should have more than enough juice to really crank them through the motions. The 100 I've heard is more taxing on amps, but the 3801 should still have enough for those beasts. If you go with the 100s, you may not even need a subwoofer. Depending on the size of your room, you might also want to start with one subwoofer like the Servo-15. Going with one subwoofer makes it easier to optimally position the unit and use a parametric equalizer to correct for room acoustics.

    I own the Studio 40 v.2s and did an extensive listening to the v.3 versions recently. My impressions are posted below.

    http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...966@.ef9e447/8
    http://forums14.consumerreview.com/c...967@.ef9e447/0

  3. #3
    RGA
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    If it were me I would live with what you have until you can move to a high end speaker manufacturer. The Studio Series is solid, it's certainly an improvement over the monitor line but it also shares some issues.

    Sounds like you have a subwoofer so I would be looking at standmounts with a glorious mid-band and high frequency response over bass. The Reference 3a MM De Capo or The Audio Note AN K SPe represent two of many very good standmounts that are a significantly LARGE step up from what Paradigm is making...both offer up far superior high frequency response without the etched treble and the "handoff" between drivers is much better executed.

    You'll find bass response from these standmounts to be very good in their own right as well. The AN K has more dynamic impact - If positioned in a corner they are rated at 93db sensitive 8ohm and 36hz-20khz - close to a wall not in a corner your looking at 90db and 50hz - 20khz. The De Capo has a sweet balance in the mid band and offers a huge scale as well. The De Capo goes for $2500.00US and the AN K goes for $1950.00US.

    I would run a better amp than the Denon with any of the speakers you're talking about. After listening to the Denon 3803 the other week, I sufffered sticker shock. It was hampered by very poor dynamic impact and a totally lifeless and unengaging sound to my ear. It sounded like musicians put their hand in front of their mouth..none of the wetness and detail that should be there. The amp section is weak in most of thee devices but the preamp is the culprit.

    For movies it was not much better - for the money I'm not surprised they keep trying to fix it with the new number 3801 then 3802, 3803...three times is NOT a charm it would seem.

    At least look for a used power amp. You can get Rotel or Adcoms for under $400.00 used to help out...preferably a preamp from somebody else as well.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I would run a better amp than the Denon with any of the speakers you're talking about. After listening to the Denon 3803 the other week, I sufffered sticker shock. It was hampered by very poor dynamic impact and a totally lifeless and unengaging sound to my ear. It sounded like musicians put their hand in front of their mouth..none of the wetness and detail that should be there. The amp section is weak in most of thee devices but the preamp is the culprit.
    You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't have any proof to infer some kind of causal link like "the preamp is the culprit." Just say you don't like how it sounds (and even then, what were you comparing it to, and were you making an effort to control for any biases?) and leave it at that. Also, keep in mind that the Canadian distributors for Denon and Onkyo (among others) charge a premium above the normal exchange rates for their receivers. In the U.S., the 3803 lists for $1,100USD. I know that Yamaha keeps their Canadian pricing roughly at the normal exchange rate. Don't know about the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    For movies it was not much better - for the money I'm not surprised they keep trying to fix it with the new number 3801 then 3802, 3803...three times is NOT a charm it would seem.
    Please spare the conspiracy theories and inneuendo. ALL home theatre processor/receiver manufacturers update their products on at least a biannual basis. Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Marantz, Lexicon, Classe, Sunfire, Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, Sherwood, Technics, JVC you name it, they all do the same thing. I don't know a single manufacturer that tries to stay in business by not periodically revising and updating their products. They have to anyway because the DSP processors and digital components are almost always supplied by third party OEM vendors, and those parts that are in mass production change and get discontinued very quickly as the processing power increases and new designs are introduced. On the wholesale market, you'd be hard pressed to find processor chips without DPLII or DTS decoding. It is possible through other channels to get legacy processors, but then you're paying more, that's how commodity markets work. Why do you think so many new memory chips for computers more than five years old cost more than those for computers made within the last two years? It would be like building a computer with a Pentium II chip, rather than a Pentium 4. You could, but why would you want to?

    So, even if Denon has such an emotional investment in the 3801 that they wanted to keep making it the same way with no changes, they wouldn't be able to because Analog Devices no longer makes the original SHARC processor that's in the 3801 (and several other mid to high end home theatre processors from three years ago), and the Analog Devices 96/24 DACs in that model have since been replaced by newer Burr-Brown 192/24 models.

    Has nothing to do with having to continually remedy deficiencies. It's just keeping pace with what the market is demanding and developing, and everybody does this.

  5. #5
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Also, keep in mind that the Canadian distributors for Denon and Onkyo (among others) charge a premium above the normal exchange rates for their receivers. In the U.S., the 3803 lists for $1,100USD. I know that Yamaha keeps their Canadian pricing roughly at the normal exchange rate. Don't know about the others.
    That is about $1600.00CDN. I think it would be overpriced at $1100.00CDN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Please spare the conspiracy theories and inneuendo. ALL home theatre processor/receiver manufacturers update their products on at least a biannual basis. Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Marantz, Lexicon, Classe, Sunfire, Rotel, Arcam, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, Sherwood, Technics, JVC you name it, they all do the same thing. I don't know a single manufacturer that tries to stay in business by not periodically revising and updating their products.

    .../...
    Has nothing to do with having to continually remedy deficiencies. It's just keeping pace with what the market is demanding and developing, and everybody does this.
    The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

    But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    That is about $1600.00CDN. I think it would be overpriced at $1100.00CDN.



    The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

    But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.
    I love my new receiver. It does everything I need, and has features I don't even use. I bought into a new "gimick" they call YPAO [Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer] that does a better job than I can in calibration. For the price I paid, the needs I have, and results I'm delighted with in both 2 channel and HT I can only glean from your comments that I'm a conned sheep. Of course these are conclusions of someone "duped" into buying speakers they never heard. Turned out to be one of the best purchases in my life. Did the same thing with a subwoofer. Things sound pretty good in my fool's paradise. Even people who have spent thousands more have said there would be little to be gained. It's not the best, but I hardly feel conned. Hmmmmm could that be the best con? I'm sure some think so, but then again we all make our choices to satisfy our own criteria and what is best for us is decided by each of us.

    Seperates or receivers? It depends who's asking. I think it's the overkill of speakers in my small room that maginalizes the need to have seperates. I tried a power amp [Parasound 200w] and the only difference I heard was mitigated with turning the volume up on the receiver to play as loud as the amp. No higher highs or deeper bass or quicker transients. Of course you can say that's because the receiver was in the loop. I'm very happy with the processing but most of the listening comparisons were done with "no effect". YMMV.

    RGA I know I've been at this awhile not to "get it". Receivers rock to a plug and play guy like me, and even some "audiophiles" use and like them.

    Nice post Woochifer.
    TinHere

    Enjoying a virtual life.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The market are sheep...I'm not referring to the processor chip...the amplifiers are no better - it's a scam to get people to trade their 3801 for the 3803 - But then GM puts a new body and new gadgets on the same ol tired piece of badly made garbage too...and it keeps selling.

    But since the big three market share has dropped nearly 20 full points in one year - Thankfully and finally buyers are catching on...and thankfully and finally, separates and integrated amp and turntable and LP sales are rising and rising. Maybe this con job will finally end and people will start buying quality over quantity. IMO.
    You may think the "market are sheep" but that would make you a wooly haired critter as well since you are part of the market as well. Unless you suddenly decide to live off the land and become totally self-sufficient, you're just as tied into markets as anybody else who lives in a capitalist country is.

    How's it a scam to update and make changes to products? It happens in EVERY INDUSTRY. You add value (or perceived value) to a product or service in order to induce spending, and that spending generates multiplier impacts across the economy. If one business' perceived value is greater than that of another business, then market share shifts. The whole point of operating as a business is to induce spending. It's a different type of economy if businesses did not operate this way. If customers don't see value in these changes that get made to products, then they won't buy them. If they see value, then they do. It's pretty simple.

    Denon updates the 3800 series roughly every 18 months, and other manufacturers have comparable update schedules. You can question the merit of these updates, but as with anything that relies on digital technology, a manufacturer can't stand still even if they wanted to because the processor chips and other internal components evolve so rapidly. As I said, Denon would not be able to make the 3801 today even if they wanted to because the most critical digital components in that model aren't made in quantity anymore.

    And why would product updates constitute a scam get someone to trade in a 3801 for a 3803? The 3803 has numerous improvements in its functionality, connectivity, and format support. Are they enough to induce a current 3801 owner to upgrade? I would guess not in most cases. But, gosh it's a criminal act to try and improve a product, I mean, someone might actually CHOOSE to buy it! You also forgot about the possibility that the changes made with the 3803 are not targeted at current 3801 owners, but at people who don't currently own a 5.1 receiver and are looking to make the jump into home theatre. And with all of the other manufacturers aggressively updating their products, Denon had better keep up if they want to maintain their market position. It's called competition.

    You can rant and rave about quality versus quantity, but people make purchases out of their own personal preferences, and all of the comments about how sheepish their perspective is won't change things. Give people credit for making choices based on what's important to them, rather than criticizing them for daring to have different priorities than you.

    BTW, where's your information that the big three's market share dropped by 20 percent in one year? At the start of the year, I thought they had just under a 60 percent market share, and now they're suddenly at 40 percent? That's a pretty drastic shift and unprecedented I might add, especially in light of articles that I keep reading about how GM's incentive programs have helped them stop their market share erosion even at the expense of profitability. Even if you're referring to percentage of rather than straight percent points, that still equates to a 12 percent shift in market share. Again, unprecedented and typically a trend that takes more than a decade to manifest itself. I believe that in 1980, the big three market share was roughly 80 percent. Getting that share below 60 percent took about 20 years, and you're now saying that a 20 percent shift occurred in just one year? In statistical terms, that would constitute an outlier or anomaly. Think about it logically, rather than through the filter of wishful thinking.

    And what's the basis of your information about separates and amps increasing their market share? It might be true, but when you're starting from a very small base, any percentage increase would look drastic on paper even if the actual market impact is limited. Right now, the market that's keeping a lot of independent stores afloat is home theatre installations, and those do indeed specify separates. But, if anything those stores that solely rely on high end equipment sales are increasingly endangered. I know of at least two high end stores in the Bay Area that have folded in the past year. The one thing they had in common was they were slow to add multichannel equipment to their product lines, and had product lines dominated by analog and two-channel separates. I guess it was emotionally satisfying to cling to principles, but in those cases it was also business suicide.

    LP sales are indeed rising, but considering that their annual sales level in the U.S. is roughly two million units, that's still pretty low considering that just one Britney Spears album alone will sell five times that volume in CDs. But, I will add that LP sales were still outpacing SACD and DVD-A as of a year ago, but with all of the hybrid SACDs that have come out this year, I don't think that trend will hold up.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    I love my new receiver. It does everything I need, and has features I don't even use. I bought into a new "gimick" they call YPAO [Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer] that does a better job than I can in calibration. ... I'm sure some think so, but then again we all make our choices to satisfy our own criteria and what is best for us is decided by each of us.
    I think these types of active calibration functions are the next feature that's going to make its way into just about every receiver out there. It makes too much sense to integrate things like delay timing and variable crossover settings with parametric equalization. Just about everyone on this board who's used a parametric EQ on a subwoofer will attest to how critical a difference it made in the overall system performance. This type of feature is not a gimmick because it directly addresses the effect of room acoustics, which IMO is every bit as important as the speaker itself, and a lot more variable than the differences between sources and amplification. Pioneer has had this feature on their Elite receivers for at least the past year, and Harman's research papers stress the importance of room acoustics. With them, I can only assume that the RABOS calibration system that they use with some of their Infinity subwoofers is just the beginning and something similar will show up on h/k receivers soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    Seperates or receivers? It depends who's asking. I think it's the overkill of speakers in my small room that maginalizes the need to have seperates. I tried a power amp [Parasound 200w] and the only difference I heard was mitigated with turning the volume up on the receiver to play as loud as the amp. No higher highs or deeper bass or quicker transients. Of course you can say that's because the receiver was in the loop. I'm very happy with the processing but most of the listening comparisons were done with "no effect". YMMV. .
    Well, I'm kinda in the middle here. I have no doubt that going with separates is a step up. I just don't agree that it's a night and day critical difference, unless you're playing back at concert level volumes or your system has very demanding speakers. Whatever direction you go in, I think it's much more important to first address the room acoustics. With a bad room, the overall audio performance will suffer no matter what amp is used.

  9. #9
    RGA
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    Ok CNN said the drop was in the 70s to the 50s. Toyota went ahead of chrysler a few months back and just passed Ford in worldwide sales. Not surprising due to piss poor vehicles. Of course that is my opinion based off my driving their cars and looking at their repair histories. though yes I'm sure they accelerate better or some such drivel for the first 6 months of ownership.

    As for sales of separates and LPs well you are correct in that their sales typically have nowhere to go but up and once the market is saturated with receivers then...

    Similar to computers. Now that so many people have them you can buy a computer for $499.00CDN at Future shop that will make most everyhting 2 years ago look stupid...well actually not so...it's just a perceived improvement since those computers can do everything new ones can if a little slower.

    I agree with you on the perception issue. People perceive lots of gadgets to be better. Too bad mostly they are not. Like receivers. One big compromise for sound quality. Though you get functionality and features. All in one printer. Does it all and nothing particularly well.

  10. #10
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    Seperates or receivers? It depends who's asking. I think it's the overkill of speakers in my small room that maginalizes the need to have seperates. I tried a power amp [Parasound 200w] and the only difference I heard was mitigated with turning the volume up on the receiver to play as loud as the amp. No higher highs or deeper bass or quicker transients. Of course you can say that's because the receiver was in the loop. I'm very happy with the processing but most of the listening comparisons were done with "no effect". YMMV.

    RGA I know I've been at this awhile not to "get it". Receivers rock to a plug and play guy like me, and even some "audiophiles" use and like them.

    Nice post Woochifer.
    Hey mate if you're happy you're happy. They serve their purpose. All I'm saying is they simply don't cut it for me. Don't take my harsh words of my opinion on most gear to heart. I have owned receivers and extensively compared to very goiod separates with very good speakers. Most of which most of us will never afford.

    My bias is two channel music reproduction because 99.99999% of all music is recorded FOR 2 channel music. I care about that mostly...so when I see 5k receivers that sound worse by a large margin to my ear than a $750.00 integrated then I get a little erked that they're trying to sell me a feature box over something even remotely decent. I am also a realist and understand that people want home theater on the cheap, many of whom will never hear a good 2 channel system because none of the big chains carry a decent 2 channel system and if they did don't have a proper listening facility and most buyers listen primarily to top 40 and want JBL or some other rocker. Many speakers in these chains wouldn't be helped by better equipment anyway.

    But then there are Music audiophiles and home theater philes. I have oiver 200 DVDs and even some LDs. I was planning on being a film critic. Movies are huge for me. My issue is sound for two channel music must meet a certain criteria for me. That same music is a big part of motion pictures...and is utterly butchered by the majority of surround sound systems. Most of them can't accurately produce the human voice...I listened to the theme music of the Raiders of the Lost Ark disc through my 2 channel rig and I'll take it over most home theater rigs at 10 times the price. Simple reason is the amp and the speakers do it right. I lose out on sound effects etc...but that trade is no contest. And I can add later.

    That said, receivers provide multi-featured options many desire - obviously because they sell more. More Caveliers are sold than Rolls Royce and Ferrari too. That doesn't mean the former is better than the latter.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    That said, receivers provide multi-featured options many desire - obviously because they sell more. More Caveliers are sold than Rolls Royce and Ferrari too. That doesn't mean the former is better than the latter.
    That might be it in a nutshell. The point as I see it is that we all make our choices based on what we know, what we want, and what we can afford. Just because someone shows up to the party in a Cavelier and not a Rolls doesn't mean they won't have a good time. In some terms there is no comparison but on the other hand if they go from point A to B within the limits of the law they can arrive at the same time. Any differences between them may not matter, and neither one is "junk" to the passenger happy to be able to show up on time and enjoy the party.

    I guess more people are casual listeners rather than critical listeners most of the time. You sometimes make the differences between receivers and seperates seem like night and day when that is not the case. More people suffer from acoustic compromises in their room that even the "best" gear won't remedy. I know I do. If I can't take the Ferrari out of the parking lot what's the point? There's a lot more to good sound than equiptment, and to some of us want more from our equiptment than just good sound [i.e. lots of options at an affordable price].

    I can't imagine my dream system without seperates, but now I think I'd be giving up too much technology to have seperates that are affordable. The amp would cost more than my receiver, and the processor would be a lot more than that. I may have paid a quarter of the price, but I'm having almost all the fun.
    TinHere

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  12. #12
    RGA
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    TinHere

    See that is what happens when I use a car analogy. I have this extreme Rolls vs Cavelier comparison.

    Well let's assume we both look at the Cavelier as a piece of poop as cars go. In Canada at least a Honda Civic is basiclaly the same money. Let's assume this is a terrific car for the money. The Cavelier has more bells and whistles the Honda will last longer is better built and does the job better due to better gas mileage handling suspension the works.

    Now you can pile MORE features onto the Cavelier and now you have a Grand AM and pile more on and have a Grand Prix...all of which is total junk costs more but hey you have more features. The cheap Honda is still a much better car...and when it adds on look out.

    IMO this is very similar to receviers. I was looking at Marantz's line. Basically until you get to the very top of the line 9300 the units below are a series of upgrades to the features, surround chips. The 9300 finally moves to a decent transformer which would be found in a bottom of the lineRotel.

    This to me makes the 9300 a bit silly. I would rather see people buy a lower unit and then add on a dedicated power amp...all of this assumes they have good speakers. I myself was looking at the Marantz 4300 because it's a cheap way to add home theater and also has jacks to add on a power amp. For $400.00CDN Who cares about the power amp section. It likely has the identical preamp section of the 9300.

    But people buy expensive receivers because they sound better than cheaper receivers. And yet these same people question that integrateds and separates which use much better parts, don't suffer the interference, etc don't? If people are not hearing the difference then they have a problem with the room and or the speakers. Since 90% of the speakers I hear irritate me and most of those are sold to the most people(Bose is number 1 after all) no wonder all amps sound the same to them.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Please people understand RGA has the best ears in audio history.Dont ask him to prove his claims.He does not have to for he is RGA God of all audio, with the best ears in the world.And if he says receivers suck then dont ask him to prove it, just trust him because he is RGA God of all audio.If he says his spekers are the best ,well they are because he is RGA God of all audio.If you prefer a speaker that he does not well you are wrong,Why may you ask well because he is RGA God of all audio.No need to ask for proof because he knows all..Thanks RGA I know now I never need to look for facts on this board I just need to ask you...

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    "But people buy expensive receivers because they sound better than cheaper receivers."

    Modify the above to read: "people buy expensive recievers because they think they sound better", and I might agree. :-) Their are also details like fit & finish, pride in having the 'top of the line', etc. Some hi-end recievers have featues that others don't. Some recievers have audible noise problems-i've acutally heard this in hi and low end recievers. Of course, I don't think units that demonstrate audible noise(hiss, rf, etc.) problems are worth a hoot, personally. :-)

    "And yet these same people question that integrateds and separates which use much better parts, don't suffer the interference, etc don't? If people are not hearing the difference then they have a problem with the room and or the speakers."

    If they don't hear a difference, it could just be that their are NO differences that are audible. Now, I will state that things may often SEEM to sound different when their is no true audible difference, but their is more than just true audible factors at play here(read, pyschological).

    -Chris

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    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    TinHere
    Since 90% of the speakers I hear irritate me and most of those are sold to the most people(Bose is number 1 after all) no wonder all amps sound the same to them.
    The fact is that most people are going to like most of the speakers they hear. Some more than others, but most won't find them to be "irritating" even if they're not their choice. Apply that to a piece of equiptment [funtioning within its parameters] that is going to have less impact on the sound we hear [a debatable issue in any case] than speakers, set-up, and acoustics. Your tastes put you in shall we say a select group, but your attitude on this subject is often condesending. That's why the harsh responses, but I think you know that. I don't take it to heart, but I can see why some people get upset.

    All that is true and yet you denigrate the choice to enjoy the convenience advantages offered by a receiver. Even to a purist as yourself, the choice to use a receiver shouldn't be veiwed as a fatal flaw. It's as I said before, about people making informed decisions based on criteria you dismiss out of hand. There is room, I hope, to respect the fact that people do what they deem best for themselves even if we don't agree with the choices they make. Enjoy what you have [we all know there is always "better"] but it isn't necessarily going to be what someone else thinks is best for them. It works for you, great. It's not about right or wrong, it's about respecting choices and not calling an alternative "junk" because you don't appreciate the virtues others see in it.

    Different strokes for different folks. It's not a difficult concept no matter what car you drive. You can be sure a Cavelier is a blessing to some nice intelligent people who are happy to own one.

    BTW the receiver I have isn't a flagship model, but satisfies my needs. Sheesh, if I going to spend that much I'd be nuts to get a receiver, or not.

    Talk about hijacking a thread. Sorry mikert456.
    TinHere

    Enjoying a virtual life.

  16. #16
    RGA
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    TinHere

    yes I do end to sound overly critical ... though I have also entertained buying a mid/low level receiver so I must not hate them as much as I sound.

    I have gone the receiver route with regret and I try, to let others who may be picky like me, to warn them of what's in store.

    Though again, the biggest plus for me and receiver buyers is the facility to upgrade. Should you never choose to great, but at least over the last few years the option is available on far cheaper units.

    And most people probably don't care enough to really notice. The only time I usually try and tell people to avoid receivers is if music is the primary goal. You want it all for cheap receivers are the practical choice. The entry Marantz has the upgrade jacks...seems like a good option well under $500.00US.

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    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA

    The only time I usually try and tell people to avoid receivers is if music is the primary goal.
    There is nothing wrong with a receiver for music.I have owned Intergrated,main and preamp,and receivers over the last 26 years.I have not seen any of this magic the seperates produce.I have what I think is a nice 2ch pre (I reckon, I need to check with RGA God of all audio to see if I really like it or not) in my system and while using direct 2ch on my Yamaha 1400 RECEIVER I cannot tell any difference between the 2...But then again I have been accused of being tone deaf because I prefered I speaker over a speaker RGA God of all audio prefered...

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    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    TinHere

    yes I do end to sound overly critical ... though I have also entertained buying a mid/low level receiver so I must not hate them as much as I sound. .
    Now that's a scary thought.

    What's nice about this hobby are the many ways it can be enjoyed besides the choices of material. A nice day at the beach with a boombox playing some tunes, and acoustic compromises take on another perspective. IMHO enjoying the music is more important the sophistication used to hear it, but it sure feels good when we get to hear an improvement in sound reproduction at home. I guess that's the reason we share our experiences with others in a zealous manner. It's about good feelings we want others to enjoy, and the avoidance of what we perceive as mistakes they might make. < >
    TinHere

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  19. #19
    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinHere
    Now that's a scary thought.

    What's nice about this hobby are the many ways it can be enjoyed besides the choices of material. A nice day at the beach with a boombox playing some tunes, and acoustic compromises take on another perspective. IMHO enjoying the music is more important the sophistication used to hear it, but it sure feels good when we get to hear an improvement in sound reproduction at home.>
    Tin I could not agree more.Great post!!! My favorite is when the wind kicks up at the coast and prevents fishing.My wife and kids back the boat up to a sand bar crank some classic rock and disco, drink coolee pops(beer) and enjoy the day.

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    Good one. One must be careful how components are compared or else th eopinion is unreliable at best, worthless at most.

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    [QUOTE=mikert456]I find that in my present room that the bass can become muddy and imaging struggles to stay in one position.[QUOTE]

    You may have speaker phase problems if imaging dances around and is unstable. Make sure youy are sending th epositive out from each channel to the positive terminal in the speakers.
    If this doesn't work, you may want to reverse one side and check. Perhaps the internal wire is reversed in one speaker.

    Your room should not have this effect on soundstage to make it move around.

    Does this happen with all recordings or just some? Perhaps the recording is at fault?

    You have to exhaust all possible causes before you jump off the bridge.

  22. #22
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by 46minaudio
    There is nothing wrong with a receiver for music.I have owned Intergrated,main and preamp,and receivers over the last 26 years.I have not seen any of this magic the seperates produce.I have what I think is a nice 2ch pre (I reckon, I need to check with RGA God of all audio to see if I really like it or not) in my system and while using direct 2ch on my Yamaha 1400 RECEIVER I cannot tell any difference between the 2...But then again I have been accused of being tone deaf because I prefered I speaker over a speaker RGA God of all audio prefered...
    As I say you need a good speaker to notice a difference...no notice a difference no good is the speaker/room/hearing. Room and placement are huge. And of course just because something is way more expensive does not mean it's any better. Lots of stuff sounds pretty much the same or identical - even speakers.

    Some people hear(or perceive) differences in cables. I don't. But I'm not going to get on thier case. Lots of people like speakers I don't as well...good for them - not good for me - and if It's my money ont the line then it's ME who counts. Ditto for them.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular 46minaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    As I say you need a good speaker to notice a difference...no notice a difference no good is the speaker/room/hearing.
    If thats what you have to tell yourself RGA.LMAO You really ought to try some level matched blind testing before spouting off.Oops my bad you dont need to for you are RGA God of all audio.

  24. #24
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by 46minaudio
    If thats what you have to tell yourself RGA.LMAO You really ought to try some level matched blind testing before spouting off.Oops my bad you dont need to for you are RGA God of all audio.
    Yes you would get a much better system if you listened to your audio God - ME. LOL.

    I have done Single Blind(and the tester was not present), of numerous items. And a successful variation of them, with headphones for cd players, and once with speakers.

    With amplifiers I had the luxury of doing them with my speakers in my home. These were not fill in a form test protocol of course...but then it was for my own purchasing decision not to prove something to someone else. As the years have gone by and I have taken various science courses and gone in Psychology I have a pretty good understanding of Double Blind testing and their validity as it relates to "real world" listening. I have thought there was a nIght and day difference. Done a test which I proceeded not to pass statistically, then knowing this, went back and listened sighted without the "testing environment imposed" and still had the same opinion as I did before the test. And since we live in the real world and we don't normally listen in a testing envoironment - and since the two are not 100% directly correlational, then I'm going with the normal environment...current brain research supports this as well. If ten people in a room all say they think a Sony is brighter than the Pioneer, and in the test that is not found...the test does not match the observation...and it should. The first part of the test is not looked at by most.

    You can pick your scientists OR engineers to follow since they don't agree on methodology and conclusion of the testing...the debates go no where.

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    If I recall you never level matched.

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