Magnepan 1.6qr's + Pathos Classic One?

I'm going to be upgrading my MMG speakers to the 1.6qr's very soon -- and in another thread it was recommended that I upgrade my amp too.

I'm presently using a Musical Fidelity A3.2, and I'm looking at the Pathos Classic One to replace it.

Questions: Am I still going to need my subwoofer with this combo? And if so, I take it I can run the Tape Out line from the Classic One into my sub (it's powered)?

Or will I get enough bass out with this setup so that I can sell off my subwoofer?

Any other thoughts on this combination of amp and speakers?

This is strictly for 2-channel music listening, no HT stuff. The room is not large.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1128648676.jpg

Nuff said :D

^^^ Yeah, I was pretty sure where you'd come down on this!

But the more I research amps, the more confused I get. I *know* that I'll see a big difference when I move to the 1.6qr's, but will the amp really make a noticeable difference?

Keep in mind that the MF A3.2 has plenty of juice, so that's not a problem for me now. A lot of what I've read on this site and in others is that once you have a decent quality amp, it's pretty much a waste of money to go higher (or at the very least, seriously diminishing returns).

Assuming I don't have money to burn (and I don't), is it really worth spending another $1.5k+ for the Classic One?

Is it worth it? Short answere: Yes!

Is there a huge difference between the 5000$ Krell FPB series and my 13000$ Sphinx amp? Yes! Is it twice as good? Maybe! Those who say that the differences are small and that it doesnt matter either never heard it or cant afford it. Simple as that :-)

The Maggie, eventough the first step towards music is damn picky on its sources and placment etc... The Pathos sounds better then the Krell KSA 150, KSA250, Ampzilla 2000 and easily better then the MF.

Enjoy the trip :-)

PS: Use the balanced inputs on it and ditch the sub.

Did i mention i still own the Pathos ;-)

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

I'm going to be upgrading my MMG speakers to the 1.6qr's very soon -- and in another thread it was recommended that I upgrade my amp too. ....

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There is a huge improvement to be had by moving to the MG 1.6 -- that was my own upgrade path too. Much more bass at high sound levels, better resolution, smoother, and better tonal balance than MMG.

Whereas a sub is pretty much essential with the MMGs, it is not with the MG 1.6's. With the MMGs, a sub with an 80Hz or higher crossover compensates for the limited "loudness" potential. However with the MG 1.6's this 'loudness' role is irrelevant (at reasonable levels in most rooms); instead the sub merely provides deeper bass extension.

I'm personally familiar with the MF A3.2, but it ought to have sufficient power, (again, at reasonable levels in most rooms). Why as the Pathos recommended? Because it is a tube hybrid? I'm not personally familiar with it either, but it wouldn't be high on my what-to-try list. My Bel Canto eVo2i is great but well above $1.5k. If that is you budget limit, stick with the MF unless you are willing to buy used.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Why as the Pathos recommended? Because it is a tube hybrid? I'm not personally familiar with it either, but it wouldn't be high on my what-to-try list.

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The Pathos are the best match i found for the Maggies, and you should try it. It will show you a new side of the Maggies that you havent heard before ;)

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Originally Posted by Feanor

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I'm personally familiar with the MF A3.2, but it ought to have sufficient power, (again, at reasonable levels in most rooms). Why as the Pathos recommended? Because it is a tube hybrid? ...

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I meant to say not familiar with the MF A2.3.

A tube front end is perhaps not a bad thing. If I were an equipment swapper -- I'm not -- would be looking at a tube preamp plus a 'digital' power amp. Maybe a ModWright SWL 9.0SE tube preamp ($2200), plus a Bel Canto e300 ICEpower-base amp, ($1600). Or a slightly lower price point, a Val Alstine Transendence 8 tube preamp, ($approx. 1500?), plus a DIYCable UCD-400 amp, (approx. $875, kit)

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Originally Posted by Florian

The Pathos are the best match i found for the Maggies, and you should try it. It will show you a new side of the Maggies that you havent heard before ;)

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I would much rather have one of these than anything from Pathos. I did get to hear the bigger pathos driving some large Vandersteens, and the sound was very un-involving. The amps do look good, but looks can not be equated with performance.

The MF gear, of which I presently own a A3cr, is very good kit. While I found it's superbly extended top end a bit much for my 3.6r's and the true ribbon tweeter, the tonal caracteristics (about 1db up at 20k) of this amp is talor made for the 1.6qr's more softer top end.

If I was this person I would first spend on a set of Mye stands, and keep the MF amp.

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Originally Posted by Florian

PS: Use the balanced inputs on it and ditch the sub.

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Yes, if I go with that amp I'm going to pick up the Benchmark DAC1, which has balanced analog outs. My whole setup then would be:

Computer -> Squeezebox 2 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Classic One -> 1.6qr

Very simple and elegant. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why I would ever "need" a better setup than that.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

If I was this person I would first spend on a set of Mye stands, and keep the MF amp.

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I'm going to try the speakers with the MF first, and see if I can get a Classic One to audition in my home to see what the difference is.

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

I'm going to try the speakers with the MF first, and see if I can get a Classic One to audition in my home to see what the difference is.

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In the end it comes down to your own preference.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

If I was this person I would first spend on a set of Mye stands, and keep the MF amp.

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Oh BTW, I just ordered the stands - thanks for the tip. I was thinking of building my own, but have neither the time nor the proper tools at this point in my life.

Well i dont know why Geof. doesnt recommend the Pathos, afterall he hasnt heard them on Maggies which in this case makes the statement kinda pointless, no offense. The Pathos is a very good match with the Maggies and once you audition it you will hear the big difference. Trust me, but i will let your ears decide :-)

Since noone mentioned this so far, there is a Classic One V1 and V2. The V2 has the display for the volume control and is more powerfull. The V1 is more then enough to power the 1.6 and even drives the 3.6 to loud levels with no problem. The V2 drives the 3.6 no problem, and of course the 1.6.

I would much prefer a good source, cables and amps than a stand. My friend here runs his 20's on the normal feet also, like most do. It does help, yes. But dont fall into those upgrade traps when people change the socks, feet and other small crap. Good equipment comes first, since they will show it off.

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Originally Posted by Florian

I would much prefer a good source, cables and amps than a stand. My friend here runs his 20's on the normal feet also, like most do. It does help, yes.

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Oh boy...recommending a new source, cable and amps instead of a simple stand...maggies stand a couple of centimeters from the floor on their stock feet, don't they? Good stands used judiciously will get help get the best out the speakers by banishing all those unwanted floor reflections.

As for the sub, the 1.6R has a resonance peak at 70Hz after which the bass trails off rather rapidly, so a well integrated subwoofer will do wonders.

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Originally Posted by theaudiohobby

Oh boy...recommending a new source, cable and amps instead of a simple stand...maggies stand a couple of centimeters from the floor on their stock feet, don't they? Good stands used judiciously will get help get the best out the speakers by banishing all those unwanted floor reflections.

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Oh boy !

Talking without knowledge. First of the stand is not there for reflections, 10cm higher wont do **** for the reflections. It is there to hold them more steady which improves bass responce a bit, i have build them myself and the bass wing.

Second of all, dont read out of context. He should focus more on the really important stuff first, then on the little tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Florian

Oh boy !

Talking without knowledge. First of the stand is not there for reflections, 10cm higher wont do **** for the reflections.

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Point taken, a 10 cm is too short to drastically reduce floor reflections.

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Originally Posted by Florian

Second of all, dont read out of context. He should focus more on the really important stuff first, then on the little tweaks.

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A good stand (>20cm) should be considered as absolutely necessity to get the best out of these pair of speakers and it is not to be confused with tweaks such as sock removal, fuse upgrade etc.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

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If I was this person I would first spend on a set of Mye stands, and keep the MF amp.

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Geoff, how would you describe the benefits of the Mye stands?

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Geoff, how would you describe the benefits of the Mye stands?

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As I've never heard the 1.6qr's with the stands. God forbid I recommend something I've only heard on the 3.6's, or worse, an amp that didn't impress me with a different set of speaker.

Here's a review from an Audioasylum member;

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...ges/85641.html

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

As I've never heard the 1.6qr's with the stands. God forbid I recommend something I've only heard on the 3.6's, or worse, an amp that didn't impress me with a different set of speaker.

Here's a review from an Audioasylum member;

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...ges/85641.html

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The review was helpful. I will check out the Mye's further, I think.

You guys are making me salivate for all this great equipment.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

The review was helpful. I will check out the Mye's further, I think.

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I suggest you do, for not a lot of money the extra stability it provides (if firmly coupled to the ground) will improve definition and clarity (not just in the bass) as well as provide extra bass kick.

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

I'm going to be upgrading my MMG speakers to the 1.6qr's very soon -- and in another thread it was recommended that I upgrade my amp too.

I'm presently using a Musical Fidelity A3.2, and I'm looking at the Pathos Classic One to replace it.

Questions: Am I still going to need my subwoofer with this combo? And if so, I take it I can run the Tape Out line from the Classic One into my sub (it's powered)?

Or will I get enough bass out with this setup so that I can sell off my subwoofer?
.

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The tape-out is a VERY bad option as your signal level is constant (you already knew that) and the subwoofer will overpower the speakers at low levels which is not good, if your sub has speaker level inputs, use those instead, better still is to use HF crossover to cross from the maggie to the sub. Bass is the achilles hill of this little gem amplifier, the Pathos Classic One, it is a bit soft and a bit less clearly defined in the bass, a subwoofer will help matters tremendously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

As I've never heard the 1.6qr's with the stands. God forbid I recommend something I've only heard on the 3.6's, or worse, an amp that didn't impress me with a different set of speaker.

Here's a review from an Audioasylum member;

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...ges/85641.html

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Its quite a big difference to recommend a stand or a ampflifier you heard on a speaker not even remotly on a similar speaker.

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Originally Posted by Florian

Its quite a big difference to recommend a stand or a ampflifier you heard on a speaker not even remotly on a similar speaker.

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I bought my present amp, the PS Audio HCA-2 on recommendation of someone who has vastly different speakers. I bought it sight unseen, and unheard. It was the absolute RIGHT move too. Nothing I've heard has sounded as good, thak god I listend to his advice.

It didn't hurt that Stereophile had given it a class "A" rating either.....

I am suprised you didnt buy the B&W then too, oh well. I never buy something without auditioning it personally in my own system.

Ordered the 1.6qr's this afternoon, can't wait!

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Originally Posted by Florian

I am suprised you didnt buy the B&W then too, oh well. I never buy something without auditioning it personally in my own system.

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But I assure you that listening to reviewers that you trust will help clear away a lot of gear before you even audition anything.

You want a hint from me; Put your Sphinx up againt a Plinius. If your honest about your system you might see that 13k isn't nessasary to get you to heaven.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

As I've never heard the 1.6qr's with the stands. God forbid I recommend something I've only heard on the 3.6's, or worse, an amp that didn't impress me with a different set of speaker.

Here's a review from an Audioasylum member;

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...ges/85641.html

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I read through quite a few of those reviews; they were all glowing, not one negative. I'm willing to try 'em for a few hundred bucks. I'm sure I could sell them for near-full price if I didnt like them, since there's about a month wait.

website

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

But I assure you that listening to reviewers that you trust will help clear away a lot of gear before you even audition anything.

You want a hint from me; Put your Sphinx up againt a Plinius. If your honest about your system you might see that 13k isn't nessasary to get you to heaven.

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Way ahead of you, we compared the PJ18, PJ14MKIII, against Conrad Johnson P5 Monos, KSA250, KSA150, VS300B, Pathos C1, Ampzillas and the GamuT's incl. PL201 and the bottom line is this. The PJ18 can drive all loads, is much more dynamic with finer resolution but lacks in emotional impact and speed only compared to the P5's and 300B's. The Plinius was great but its much like the Maggies vs. Apogees. Maggies are great and i could easily live with them but they aint no Apogee.


@ MA Grats, your joining the leauge of musical bliss. Try the Pathos tough, it will show you that you dont have to buy into Stereophile advertisment to get good sound

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

Ordered the 1.6qr's this afternoon, can't wait!

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Your going to love them.

A few things you want to know;

Your 1.6qr maggies are going to take quite some time to reach their best. Break-in is very long. Think 400hrs if your light on the gas. My advice is to pound away with your most bass heavy tracks as often as you can stand it. Bass will continue to improve for the first 1000hrs or so. Nothing compares to planar bass, nothing!

Make sure you amp is well vented. I drove a 400 wpc amp into thermal overload with my maggies (it was fine after cooling down). Yours will take current likes it's nobodies business, so if you like to rock, make sure your amp stays cool.

Take some time, a LOT of it to tweak your location out. It took me weeks to work out the best spot for my speakers, but there's a spot where pure nirvana can be had now in my room.

Other than that it's clear sailing. Dont be afraid to pump up the volume. The 1.6qr is not only fused, it damn near indistructable. I've never heard of a failure of the QR tweeter yet.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

Your going to love them.

Wecome to the maggie club too. As you see we are not all of the same mind, but we all do love music...(at least I think we all do)

A few things you want to know;
..........

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I have nothing to add to his recommendation exept that if you drive a 400wpc into clipping on a 1.6 then the amps isnt worth a damn in my book. Also the break in is VERY important and of course, nothing touches planar bass :-)

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Originally Posted by Florian

I have nothing to add to his recommendation exept that if you drive a 400wpc into clipping on a 1.6 then the amps isnt worth a damn in my book.

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Please re-read my post. I said THERMAL overload. The amp actually sounded incredible right up at the time it shut itself down.

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

Please re-read my post. I said THERMAL overload. The amp actually sounded incredible right up at the time it shut itself down.

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Ok let me rephrase, if a amp with 400wpc (paper) goes into THERMAL shutdown on a 4ohm 1.6 then the amp isnt worth a damn in my book. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Geoffcin

Your going to love them.

A few things you want to know;

Your 1.6qr maggies are going to take quite some time to reach their best. Break-in is very long. Think 400hrs if your light on the gas. My advice is to pound away with your most bass heavy tracks as often as you can stand it. Bass will continue to improve for the first 1000hrs or so. Nothing compares to planar bass, nothing!

Make sure you amp is well vented. I drove a 400 wpc amp into thermal overload with my maggies (it was fine after cooling down). Yours will take current likes it's nobodies business, so if you like to rock, make sure your amp stays cool.

Take some time, a LOT of it to tweak your location out. It took me weeks to work out the best spot for my speakers, but there's a spot where pure nirvana can be had now in my room.

Other than that it's clear sailing. Dont be afraid to pump up the volume. The 1.6qr is not only fused, it damn near indistructable. I've never heard of a failure of the QR tweeter yet.

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I hear ya, on all counts. Will do.

So far I've really enjoyed my MMGs, so I'm sure I'll go ga-ga over the 1.6qr's. Just hope it's near the end of the trail for now -- I'm never going to be able to afford a house if I try to end up with 20.1's first!

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Originally Posted by Florian

Try the Pathos tough, it will show you that you dont have to buy into Stereophile advertisment to get good sound

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I will, eventually; first I need some time to break in the 1.6qr's -- and the wife!

But I will try it - I value your opinion, you obviously know a lot about gear, so if you say it sounds good I'm willing to audition it.

PS, looked at your gallery -- friggin' incredible... And you're so young -- How in the world can you afford all that gear? (Don't answer if you don't wish to!)

How can i afford all this gear? Good question! :-)

I am on a quest, been at it for 6 years now. All my work goes towards my hobby and i seek perfection. Or the closest thing to it. I teach the german military in IT English, I install and administrate 2K and 03 networks and design and build custom computers wich incl. phase change cooling and watercooling.

I owned most of the equipment i comment on. Here is a short list of my audio hobby, speaker wise. NEW prices upon release in germany

1. Infinity RS3 (around 300$)
2. Onkyo THX_Ultra Fronts (around 4500 for the set) (AGE 17)
3. Magnat speakers (no clue) (Age 18)
4. Onkyo THX-SYS1 (3900) ( Age 18)
6. Magnepan MMG (still own it) (1200 used) (Age 19)
7. Magnepan MG 1.6QR/SE (3000$) (Age20)
8. Magnepan MG 3.6R/SE (7000$) (Age 21)
9. Magnepan MG 3.6R (4750$) (Age 21)
10. VMPS 626 and RM30 (Still own them)
12. Apogee Scinitlla (16000) (Age 22)
13. Apogee DIVA (32000) (Age 22)

I got very very lucky on the 3.6 and on the Scinitlla and DIVA. The Apogees are a dream come true and reference speaker. Period!. Many consider them the best speaker in the world and those who dont count them at the very top on a very short list. Personaly preference ;-)

Here is my electronics history

1. Onkyo TX-DS555
2. Onkyo TX-SV919THX
3. Harman Kardon AVR7000
4. Marantz SR7200
5. Onkyo Integra 838
6. Onkyo Integra 939
7. Onkyo Integra 989 V1
8. NAD 320BB
9. Cambridge Audio Azur 540R, C500 and P500
10. Pathos Acoustics Classic One (Still own it)
11. Jolida JD3000b
12. Krell KSA-150
13. Tact RCS 2.0AA
14. Sphinx PJ2MKII, PJ18

Things from Ampzilla2000 over Wadia to Krells......

My friends here run Maggies (MG20 fully active) plus Scintillas, Duettas, Conrad Johnson, Acoustat, Silverwald OTL's, Plinius, Krell References, Goldmund T-3, Nemisis5 or Forsell, Jadis JP80, Audio Research Reference etc...... you name and i most likely have lots of experience with it.

I tried bass traps, diffusors, build my own stands incl Maggie bass wings. I tried tons of cables and positioning and lots lots more.

My quest: To hear virtually no difference between life music and my the music in my home. From my standpoint on good recordings (vinyl) ....i am damn close!

PS: Bottom line, i work my ass off and got lucky and dont buy into advertising crap and dont listen to people who show me the latest bang for the buck or who read some idiot magazine and wont understand that this is a capitalistic world.

Cheers

:-)

PS: Also the reason i get so upset sometimes is when i read all those comments from people who own little Paradigms with a TV smack �*n the middle of the speakers or someone commenting on some 200 buck system who then talks crap and calls us pashionate people snobs. Once you get the 1.6 give the Pathos a try and it will show you that its pointless to pump 400 watts into a 1.6 etc....

Geof. is the one of the very few on here i really respect and whos opinion i value but my experience is clearly different in terms of power requirement and equipment exept when it comes to panels where i love the Maggies but just took the next step.

Additional questions:

1) A lot of folks over at the MUG seem to think the various mods to the 1.6 are absolutely necessary. Would I be stupid to keep my speakers stock? If so, would I be able to find someone near me (SF Bay Area) to do the mods for me? I don't even know where my solder gun is!

2) Anybody have any experience with the Odyssey Extreme mono blocks? They also get some favorable opinions from all the reviews I've read.

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

Additional questions:

1) A lot of folks over at the MUG seem to think the various mods to the 1.6 are absolutely necessary. Would I be stupid to keep my speakers stock? If so, would I be able to find someone near me (SF Bay Area) to do the mods for me? I don't even know where my solder gun is!

2) Anybody have any experience with the Odyssey Extreme mono blocks? They also get some favorable opinions from all the reviews I've read.

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1. They are not needed, yes they are a extra goody but they will sound fine without it. The limitations in your system right now are definetly not the Maggies so worry about the other stuff first. Its true, the x-overs in the Maggies are **** but the x-overs are simple and can easily be upgraded with better caps and spools and wiring. I am currently building a 6 chassy crossover for my DIVAS which will set me back about 1.5 Grand.

2. I dont know them, but dont get drawn into the lust for power. Maggies want finesse and current.

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Originally Posted by Mike Anderson

Additional questions:

1) A lot of folks over at the MUG seem to think the various mods to the 1.6 are absolutely necessary. Would I be stupid to keep my speakers stock? If so, would I be able to find someone near me (SF Bay Area) to do the mods for me? I don't even know where my solder gun is!

2) Anybody have any experience with the Odyssey Extreme mono blocks? They also get some favorable opinions from all the reviews I've read.

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Some of them are really nuts too. To spend more on a modded crossover than the entire speaker is out of control in my opinion. Then again there are people who will spend $7000 on speaker cables.....(not me!) The standard crossovers are just fine IMHO. Any tweak is going to be just that, a tweak, and is not going to radically change the sound.

I''ve only heard good things about the Odyssey monos. Never tried them in my setup yet.

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Originally Posted by Florian

Geof. is the one of the very few on here i really respect and whos opinion i value but my experience is clearly different in terms of power requirement and equipment exept when it comes to panels where i love the Maggies but just took the next step.

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Although you keep mis-reading my posts. I never said you needed heroic amplification to make maggies sing. On the contrary, my amplifier of choice is very modest indeed. That I was able to drive a 400wpc amp in thermal overload doesn't mean I think people will be doing that on a daily basis, or would need such a high powered amp at all.