laid back, warm, forward, etc

[dongrod]

Hi.
Could you describe to me what is forward, laid back , and warm sound? Is the so called lifeless or boring sound belongs to any of them? Which of the three characteristics can be considered as very listenable and envolving.
Thanks

[Lord_Magnepan]

All depends on your personal taste.

2 extremes as a example...

Klipsch Horn vs. Lowthers driver

One is fast and agressive and the other slow and dull

Cheers

[Feanor]

Hi.
Could you describe to me what is forward, laid back , and warm sound? Is the so called lifeless or boring sound belongs to any of them? Which of the three characteristics can be considered as very listenable and envolving.
Thanks

"Forward": A perceived higher response in the mid- and upper-mid-range: it especially affects vocals but also string insturments like the violin. Some people like this, usually pop or rock lovers.

"Laid back": Not "forward"; also lacking perceive accentuation of high frequencies and/or "harsh" upper-mids and highs . Many people prefer this perceived balance, especially jazz and classical fans.

"Warm": A perceived increase in low-mid and upper-base frequencies: affects male vocals, instruments like the piano on lower notes, etc.. Some people like this provide the bass remains reasonably controlled or "tight".

[kexodusc]

Great, now can we also get some definitions for "bright", "harsh", "cold", "soft","neutral", etc.
This would be a great thread topic to pin full time, or add a definition section somewhere...
Even some examples of amps that are typically described as such.

I would add that people should keep in mind that one person's "Forward" is another person's "Laid back"...it's all relative. Furthermore, I do believe that your own hearing, gear, room, and preferences will also affect your perception of these traits.

I myself prefer amps that are typically on the neutral - to - bright side of the spectrum, as "warm" sounds muffled and hollow to me...But I don't like boom and sizzle...

[Feanor]

Great, now can we also get some definitions for "bright", "harsh", "cold", "soft","neutral", etc....

What the heck does "musical" mean to anybody but the speaker? It's notable the tube and vinyl lovers use the term a lot.

[kexodusc]

Musical means "not digital"...it implies my expensive gear is better than yours, because it's mine!!!
Bwa ha ha.

[topspeed]

Kex and F, you two nailed this thing on the head. I swear, for every person that claims B&W's are bright and aggressive, there's another behind him stating they have that "laid back British sound". It's all in the ears of the listener. My favorite term is one used by Brit mags quite a lot; "pace." I still haven't figured that one out .

[kexodusc]

That's odd, ya see, I would describe most B&W's I hear to be neutral, and maybe some of the sub $1300 models a tad light on the detail but with excellent midrange...but what do I know.

I've seen "pace" used too...And I'm still not sure what "Fast" means. Even "Tight" seems to be used an aweful lot...and what exactly is a "sweet" sound?

We should lobby ISO to come up with a new certification, ISO 9074, Audiophile Adjectives.
As in, this NAD receiver is ISO certified to sound "Warm".

[topspeed]

That's odd, ya see, I would describe most B&W's I hear to be neutral, and maybe some of the sub $1300 models a tad light on the detail but with excellent midrange...but what do I know.

I've seen "pace" used too...And I'm still not sure what "Fast" means. Even "Tight" seems to be used an aweful lot...and what exactly is a "sweet" sound?

We should lobby ISO to come up with a new certification, ISO 9074, Audiophile Adjectives.
As in, this NAD receiver is ISO certified to sound "Warm".

You're too funny KC...

[texlle]

You wouldn't describe B&W's as neutral if you heard them running from a "British-sounding" amp... . They are so bright to me, without the help of really warm wiring and or tube equipment.

[kexodusc]

Warm wiring???
Is that like trying to turn on your system without the key?

[Feanor]

Warm wiring???
Is that like trying to turn on your system without the key?

You know, I mean, like a heating element.

[Feanor]

Kex and F, you two nailed this thing on the head. I swear, for every person that claims B&W's are bright and aggressive, there's another behind him stating they have that "laid back British sound". It's all in the ears of the listener. My favorite term is one used by Brit mags quite a lot; "pace." I still haven't figured that one out .

Apparently it means "Pace, Rythm, and Timing". I've never quite figured out what these have to do with speakers.

RGA seems to though, AN fan that he is; maybe he can explain.

[topspeed]

You wouldn't describe B&W's as neutral if you heard them running from a "British-sounding" amp... . They are so bright to me, without the help of really warm wiring and or tube equipment.

I've had my main B&W's plugged into numerous amps and they have indeed sounded "bright." However, that wasn't the speaker. It was the amp. The more revealing a speaker becomes, the less tolerant it is of upstream equipment. System synergy is key to any rig transcending from merely good to WOW! Currently, they are driven by a hybrid class A digital amp and don't exhibit the slightest bit of glare or shimmer in the upper regions. I've always been a fan of tube amps, particulary products from ARC, BAT, and VAC (maybe I just like the acronyms ), but I doubt I'll ever replace my PSA.

I have a Cambridge Audio amp powering Mission Argonauts as I type this and I wouldn't say it was "bright" or aggressive at all. In fact, my speakers are inherently aggressive and connecting them to a bright sounding amp would have been akin to throwing gasoline on the fire. I've also heard Arcam amps and consider them to be pretty neutral in color. I'd be careful about labeling everything from Britain as bright.

As far as "really warm wiring", I'm not even going to touch that.

[Geoffcin]

I've had my main B&W's plugged into numerous amps and they have indeed sounded "bright." However, that wasn't the speaker. It was the amp. The more revealing a speaker becomes, the less tolerant it is of upstream equipment. System synergy is key to any rig transcending from merely good to WOW! Currently, they are driven by a hybrid class A digital amp and don't exhibit the slightest bit of glare or shimmer in the upper regions. I've always been a fan of tube amps, particulary products from ARC, BAT, and VAC (maybe I just like the acronyms ), but I doubt I'll ever replace my PSA.

I have a Cambridge Audio amp powering Mission Argonauts as I type this and I wouldn't say it was "bright" or aggressive at all. In fact, my speakers are inherently aggressive and connecting them to a bright sounding amp would have been akin to throwing gasoline on the fire. I've also heard Arcam amps and consider them to be pretty neutral in color. I'd be careful about labeling everything from Britain as bright.

As far as "really warm wiring", I'm not even going to touch that.

Speakers & amps form a system. For my own part, the Musical Fidelity A3cr amp that I was using with my maggies was just a tad too bright for them, but the same amp is amazing with my Gallos. The PS Audio HCA2 amp is clearly better with the maggies, but I don't like it any better with the gallos.

The real ass-kicker of synergy was when my buddy bought my old PS Audio 200c and hooked it up to his older B&W Matrix IIIs. He was driving them originally with a pretty good HK receiver, but after hooking them up to the PS Audio amp it was like he bought a new pair of speakers. At the risk of adding more words into the lingo; The speakers had much more authority, slam, and a feeling of effortlessness, especially when played at volume. 400wpc of American iron was all those English speakers needed.

We've warmed those wires a few times.

[texlle]

Warm wiring???
Is that like trying to turn on your system without the key?

.....what word would you deem more suitable? Thick? You know what I mean..

[RGA]

Really the terms mean little outside of a relative context - I don;t think it's at all dificult to understand any of the temrs relative to other speakers being discussed. Provided the person reading has an idea of what the person has listened to.

Using the left hemisphere of your brain ( the analytical side) to describe the experience of the right hemisphere of your brain is highly problematic. You are trying to put into words what it is you are hearing. Castle speakers I would describe as laid back or overly polite - both terms i use to mean they lack dynamics - so while nice on small ensemble or solo strings they don;t do much when you put on rock recordings - most all Panel speakers suffer a similar issue for me.

Warm I would assiociate to a speaker that sounds a bit bloomy in the bass(an overextended bass line that seems to drag ever so slightly). Again relative to another speaker where the bass note seems very quick to end before the next note - for speakers a bit of box resonance adds to a speaker's warmth. Some tube gear. On the other hand the more egregious SS grain which is easily heard when using quality speakers - is considerably displeasing and in just about every SS amp at ebvery price point - the best SS amps I've heard are 50-60 watts or less. But with certain speakers a 150 watt Bryston/Krell can work.

Prat is yet another attempt to put a criteria to what it is we're hearing - since all of the measurements that are currently available are so woefully lacking at indicating whether somehting sounds good then it's not wonder they try defining what they're hearing rather than deciphering graphs which make truly lousy speakers look goodon paper.

Frankly i would not buy into a lot of the terms - they're attempts to describe sound - but most are not really on the same page.

The theme is relativity. In fact so is the term High End, Hi-fi, mid fi low end etc. If all you've ever heard in your life is AM radio on a stock truck radio then that;s your baseline - you hear a Bose and suddenly the Bose is HIGH END. then you hear a B&W and the Bose suddenly becomes garbage and the B&W is high end - and so it goes. And even then not everyone will agree.

[dongrod]

Thank you guys.
One more thing. Do you consider NAD receivers as warm? Is a warm receiver sounds best with a warm speaker also, or what?

[Feanor]

Thank you guys.
One more thing. Do you consider NAD receivers as warm? Is a warm receiver sounds best with a warm speaker also, or what?

That's based on my own experience with the NAD C270 power amp. But it's the "warmth" of the NAD combined with a speaker that is "warm" could be just too much of a good (?) thing.

Typicallly people look for a "warm" amp to balance "cool" or "analytic" speakers.

[RGA]

Thank you guys.
One more thing. Do you consider NAD receivers as warm? Is a warm receiver sounds best with a warm speaker also, or what?

I don;t think you want to be playing the buying game in this manner - most everyone does it and the magazine propogate this stuff - and I myself have done it. If your buying a speaker which needs to be FIXED then get rid of the speaker - Very very few speakers I would want to own because i'd know I'd be looking for some tone control to fix it (many tube amps and cables are expensive tone controls)

What you need to do is find the best system --- as a system --- somewhere that is the best you've ever heard - don't worry about price.

Then find out the parts in that system - For me it was from one brand so that helps a lot but most people probably will go to dealers where this is not the case and you'll need to write it down. Now if that system is way out of your price range that's ok - most companies have scaled down versions of that sound so ask them to put a system together from those companies that fit your budget.

For instance I can't afford the best system I've ever heard so I'm attempting to alot a budget to get the scaled down version (You need to be extremely careful of course becuase not every company keeps the spirit of their best gear down into their lower lines - JBL apparently makes some very good products but based off the cheap Northridge series you wonder. (so you still need to listen in your price range).

NAD I don't find to be warm - in fact I find them totally inconsistant as they contract out designers quite often it seems. So the design team that made the 320Bee didn;t make any of their other amplifiers - the 320Bee's I heard had serious sound quality issues. The 370 is if anything lean and has an analytical unrefined presentation(though it's very good power for the money). I would not however call it warm - the 270 perhaps.

Some companies that get big have different people designing different things - the top of the line mega buck B&W speaker for instance was not designed by B&W.

Quad has contracted out to Audio Note to help them design and build amplifiers(They have their hands in other pots too) - Audio Note in turn has gone to Rega for tone arms, NAD has also gone to Rega for their turntables. And then when you get into the heavy mass market stuff the you'll see virtually the same parts and design if not the exact same units. My Pioneer Laser Disc player had several clones - Pioneer made Hitachi Laserdisc players (different colour and the Hitachi label but what you bought was a Pioneer) - Hitachi in turn made all Sony VCRs some years ago and and Sony of course was always about 50% more money. JVC was everywhere for a while as well. And most players were using one of tewo DAC chips one from Sanyo. Arcam uses Sony transports and this goes on and on.

moral = listening practice and spend the time doing it. Buying this week's rave product is nest year's upgrade or gathers dust.

[dongrod]

Okey. Now, could you guys help me categorize the following speaker models as warm, laid back, forward, analytic, etc:

B&W 600s3 series =
Paradigm monitor series =
Monitor Audio bronze series =
PSB Image series =
Tannoy Mercury series =
Tannoy Fusion series =
Polk Audio RTi series =

You may wonder why these brands. As far as I know, these are the only available in my country. And those are the only series I can afford.

Thanks again.

[kexodusc]

.....what word would you deem more suitable? Thick? You know what I mean..

Sorry, guy, just funnin' wit' ya... could you perhaps provide examples of the cables you believe are "warm" or "thick" so I can go listen to these tone controlling cables?

[Feanor]

....
NAD I don't find to be warm - in fact I find them totally inconsistant as they contract out designers quite often it seems. ... The 370 is if anything lean and has an analytical unrefined presentation(though it's very good power for the money). I would not however call it warm - the 270 perhaps.
...

The final result always depend on the combination of equipment.

I auditioned a 372 before I bought my 270; they were both driving my MMGs. They sounded very, very similar. I found they both were "warm" in the mid and upper bass; (see my definition: this is what "warm" refers to per me).

But I agree that these models are relatively "unrefined". Certainly neither had the detail or transparency of units I auditioned before I upgraded. I listen at greatest length to Monarchy SM-70 Pros, (class 'A' monoblocks), and Bel Canto eVo2i, (class 'T' digital integrated). I settled on the Bel Canto which is definitely not "warm" but quite neutral throughout.

[topspeed]

- the top of the line mega buck B&W speaker for instance was not designed by B&W.

If B&W didn't design the Nautilus, who did?

[texlle]

Sorry, guy, just funnin' wit' ya... could you perhaps provide examples of the cables you believe are "warm" or "thick" so I can go listen to these tone controlling cables?

Well, lemme put it to you this way, go listen to a modest stereo setup, B&W 602's, NAD integrated, Parasound cd player...something like that. Connect the speakers with some Monster XP cable on the spool. Listen... Then, take those off, and reconnect with some cable by Transparent or even MIT. Listen again.. You can't argue that it doesn't sound warmer...