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KEF 104/2 tweeters needed
anybody know where I can get a set of tweeters for my KEF 104/2 speakers?
Thanks
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Comparing one apple to another.
I am a newcomer to this forum, but I have been reading this thread with interest. I am not going to coment on the attitudes of the writers, but will rather comment on an experiment that I carried out today on two pairs of 104/2 which I came to acquire recently. One is older than the other, and I was comparing their sound and found out that they indeed sound very different.
The older pair has serial number 5028 and the newer one is 16121, what these mean in terms of years of production, I can't tell. The sound difference is significant though. The newer one has faster bass, much more detail, clarity and immediacy (I know these are not technical audiophile terms, but my subjective impression.) On the other hand, it also is too bright and hard on badly recorded material, female voice, symbals and some horns. I prefer the newer pair in well recorded symphonic classical music as the detail they provide can be absolutely breathtaking, while I prefer the older ones for voice and jazz, only because the harshness that I hear on the high end of the newer ones gets tiring with this sort of music. I suspect that this is a result of their extreme accuracy betraying recording flows and all kinds of other problems upstream.
I can confirm that the difference is in the crossover. Both boxes are identical in construction and drivers have the same SP numbers. Swapping the mid/high modules does not affect the sound at all (ie. the older box sounds just the same as it did before when mounted with the newer driver module). So the variable must be the crossover. I feel that the newer crossover is so transparent that many of the faults in the recording and the rest of the system shows through, and I know that the rest of my system is far from being at par with these speakers.
Having liked the detail and dynamics in the newer pair, I am planning to keep that one and see if I can soften the high end by better matching cables and amplifiers. So any advice would be very much appreciated. My current system includes a NAD 2200 amp, Rotel 975 CD player, NAD 1155 pre and 12 ga multistrand generic cables. Trying a NAD 2600 / NAD 1000 (from my home system - this is my office system) did not make an audible effect in the sound, changing the CD player to a Burr/Brown 1706 DAC did reduce some of the harshness. A 1970's Onkyo A50 integrated amp took away all of the sybillants and harshness, but at the same time the punch of the bass fizzled out and the midrange lost detail. Using 16 ga. generic wire had the same effect (I know this is not audiophile talk, but I was just experimenting to see what changes affect their sound in what way.)
Any advice on what type of amp and speaker wires to use?
My second pair, or parts thereof, will be for sale soon. They have one pair of good and one pair of fried woofers, (good inner surrounds) slightly scratched cabinets, good midranges and tweeters (one tweeter slightly dimpled but sound not affected by that) and one pair of good grills with pegs missing. I still have not decided whether to sell them in parts or as a whole, but if anyone here needs parts, let me know and if there is enough demand to justify parting them out, I will.
Yosi
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This is interesting...I was confirmed by KEF techs that there were a few different versions of
crossover used on the early 104/ 2 speakers. But the Xovers were fundamentally the same from a response, the difference being size and shape. Are your newer versions the biwire versions ? My 104/2 share the same behavior as your "new" ones: " The newer one has faster bass, much more detail, clarity and immediacy (I know these are not technical audiophile terms, but my subjective impression.) On the other hand, it also is too bright and hard on badly recorded material, female voice, symbals and some horns." Need to check what are the numbers. I don't know your system, but I believe KEFs like watts. I like my tube amp: VTL 75.
Olivier
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No, both of mine are the single wire versions.
Well, power it is not what's lacking. The NAD 2200 is rated 200W/ch into 4ohms, 440/ch into 2. and a headroom that doubles that. the NAD 2600 is even more powerful. So that is not the issue. These are solid state amps known for their "budget audiophile" performance, powerful, accurate and neutral, but nothing esoteric and possibly too much switching noise. I just purchased a Bedini 250/250 Class A 250W/ch amp and some Audioquest GBC speaker wire. The Bedini is known for tube-like smooth sound, while preserving some of the solid state characteristics such as fast bass and detail. I will let you know what I find out when I listen to the new setup.
I looked at the crossovers to the extent that can be seen through the woofers' port and they appear to be the same layout with capacitors of the same physical dimensions in the same locations. I am wondering if the difference in sound is due to deterioration of the crossovers. Maybe the newer one is closer to the way it is supposed to sound.
What is yours' serial number?
Yosi
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Olivier,
If you are talking to someone at KEF about this, it might be good to ask since both these speakers started their lives presumably with the same specificatioss for crossovers, which one represents deterioration, what kind of changes aging would cause in the crossovers.
Yosi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loganarch
Olivier,
If you are talking to someone at KEF about this, it might be good to ask since both these speakers started their lives presumably with the same specificatioss for crossovers, which one represents deterioration, what kind of changes aging would cause in the crossovers.
Yosi
Mine are 17607a/b..You can contact KEF through email. They are usually quiet responsive.
I agree that your NAD should have quiet enough power...Let me know the results with the Bedini.
Do you think that the voices are slightly laid back ?
Olivier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oplancq
Mine are 17607a/b..You can contact KEF through email. They are usually quiet responsive.
I agree that your NAD should have quiet enough power...Let me know the results with the Bedini.
Do you think that the voices are slightly laid back ?
Olivier
So yours are slightly newer than my newer ones. I should be getting the Bedini hooked up by the weekend. I will let you know.
I find the voices in general neutral, but there is sibillation with some records, but then again that may be from the amp or the source. As compared to my KEF C80, the voices are more forward, but laid back as compared to the Ohm Walsh 2, and to the KEF C60. But none of these speakers claim to be Reference quality, and their specs also show their coloration to be in the +/-3dB range vs. 104/2's claimed +/-2dB. If your room is too bare and reflective, the upper end may be slightly overwhelming the voices. For subtle changes in tonality I recommend playing with the speaker wires. They do make subtle differences that compensate for other parts of the system or the room, and experimenting with them it is possible to find one that compliments or compensates for some of the room and equipment characteristics. And many times the right cable is nothing esoteric but just a change in the gauge or the strand type. For example, my experience using silver coated multi strand (generic - $0.50/ft) wires with the C60 & C80's and the NAD amps in a low ceilinged reflective basement was that they de-emphasized the mid and bass and overemphasized the treble. On the other hand those same wires did very well with Celestion speakers, a low powered Pioneer and the soft finishes in the bedroom. I feel wires are like salt and spices, add to taste.
Something I noticed as I was doing A/B tests between the L and R channels was that one of the speakers had a different rendition on the cymbals, dryer and less detailed in the shimmering overtones that jazz cymbals often carry. I removed the tweeter and found out that it had been clamped down with such a force that the damping gasket around the tweeter had gotten too compressed and was partially deforming the surround of the tweeter (if you have not taken these apart, they are not mounted with four screws like other tweeters, but with a single central bolt pressing down from a wooden brace behind the tweeter.) The difference is not one that is readily visible, but a relative flattening of the appr. 1 mm profiled ring around the dome, thus limiting the movement of the tweeter. It must have been like this from original assembly, as there was no sign of the speaker being opened up before. I suspect someone at KEF was having a bad day and took it out on that tweeter, clamping it down with all his might. It is also possible but less likely that the enclosure of the mid/hi module shrank as a result of dry climate (Chicago is a lot dryer than England) and compressed things together. Well, after 15 years of deformation, it did not look like it was going to recover its shape, so I replaced the tweeter with one from the older pair, and now they sound quite the same, even though one is shinier than the other, visually. So much for having the tweeters matched... it all comes down to the guy who assembles it. It is also remarkable that the tweeters from production years that far apart can sound so much better together.
And that was my KEF adventure for the day.
Yosi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oplancq
Mine are 17607a/b..You can contact KEF through email. They are usually quiet responsive.
I agree that your NAD should have quiet enough power...Let me know the results with the Bedini.
Do you think that the voices are slightly laid back ?
Olivier
Well, listening today to "Dark Side of the Moon", I think the voices are just right. I have been listening to this record for 32 years now, and there were always voice effects, whispers, mumblings, etc, that I could not understand because they were always too faint and unclear. Now I can hear them quite well with the 104/2. Not, only that, but now there is another layer of whispers and mumblings and breathings sounds, etc. that I never knew were there. If I only can get rid of the sibillation and graininess. I am convinced that hese are coming either from the amp or the source. Some wires might help filter them, at the expense of some of the other detail and immediacy. I hope the new amp will clear that, otherwise it means that they are asking for a very expensive CD Player.
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" If your room is too bare and reflective, the upper end may be slightly overwhelming the voices."
Yes bingo...that's the case !!! Fortunately we should move soon...I agree that cables have quiet an impact on how they sound.
Mine were bought in 1989.
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The frequency curves I have from "Revue du son" are also clearly showing a slightly ascending trend in the treble. Of course I'm not sure in what condition it was taken. I can fax you a copy if you want. But the text is in French...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oplancq
The frequency curves I have from "Revue du son" are also clearly showing a slightly ascending trend in the treble. Of course I'm not sure in what condition it was taken. I can fax you a copy if you want. But the text is in French...
Thanks, I would be interested to see them. My fax is 773 862 6507. Le Francais, ben, ca ne me gene pas (a part que l'ortograffe).
Yosi
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loganarch
Thanks, I would be interested to see them. My fax is 773 862 6507. Le Francais, ben, ca ne me gene pas (a part que l'ortograffe).
Yosi
Better late than never, here is a pic of the graph (from a different magazine though):
I can send you the electronic copy of the entire article if you wish...
Olivier
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Terrence - is that the DCI Cavaliers?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dean_martin
Terrence - is that the DCI Cavaliers?
That is indeed the Cavaliers from DCI, I marched with them from 1979 to 1986. I am a VERY active alumni member now. Jeeze, I didn't think anyone has even heard of Drum Corps around here. Have you ever marched?
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I marched in high school and I marched for the University of Alabama's Million Dollar Band. My son plays snare for his high school. He is a huge Cavs fan and was happy that they finished first this year. He tried out for the Revolution (Div.II) last year, but didn't make it. This year he's planning to try out for Teal Sound and maybe Revolution again. He's also been to a snare drum camp hosted by Phantom Regiment. He'll go nuts when I tell him I've conversed with a real live Cavaliers alumnus!
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