The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Science in Loudspeakers

[RGA]

Yeah it's a shame your inferiority complex has you jealous of anyone who likes the finer things in life. I know it's a shame you can't appreciate quality audio reproduction equipment - anyone who thinks Bose doesn't sound too good is a snob. LOL. An audio equipment reviewer says something is better than Bose - he is an audio snob for saying so - cause Markw's world view is that everything is equal and it's all the same level of quality. Sneer in snobby derision - chortle chortle.

Actually - I can live with being viewed as Audio Snob. Wine critics are Wine Snobs and so too are food critics - and I'm an Audio Critic so the shoe fits I should be happy to wear it. In fact I hold back far too often on my views of audio equipment to placate simpletons in order to not make them feel bad. Perhaps you've inspired me to let loose and call it the way it is.

[markw]

An "audio reviewer" publicly implies that an entire class of people, (anyone who buys Bose) is sheeple who cannot think for themselves but rather blindly follow the dictates of the big, bad, hypnotic marketing machine. So, whose stroking their ego here?

Who needs to post an article from another website and then inserts his own personal prejudices into the thread and then tries to blame the article?

But he doesn't even have the cojones to come out admit it, but when confronted with it would rather try to deny it by hiding behind a barrage of words that circle around and come right back from where they started Oh , yeah, there's a real paragon of virtue if ever I've seen one.

No, snob. Not everyTHING ie equal, everyONE is, as their personal opinions but, as you've shown over and over again, you don't believe that. Only you and your opinions are worth anything.

Go ahead; let loose. It's hard to hold it in. I see the laxative is working.

[mlsstl]

The dictionary definition of "snob" is: "one who thinks that money and rank are very important, and has contempt for those he considers inferior." (Webster's New World)

I know many people who are sophisticated and erudite on certain subjects but who show no hint of snobbery. They are happy to share their knowledge with all who ask but understand that others have different priorities that leave them uninterested in a particular issue, be it wine, food, cars, audio or whatever.

So, yes, it is possible to appreciate some objects more than others, but that doesn't mandate that others who don't share that appreciation are inferior.

[texlle]

I would consider it snobbish to think that ALL Bose buyers are ignorant of better brands. SOME are and some aren't. There are those who buy bose for the brand-whore and aethetic appeal. These are the people who I believe RGA is attacking here. I happen to agree with him. Doesn't make me a snob- maybe a bit opinionated. Then you have others who aren't as concerned with accurate sound reproduction as the typical audiophile- those who buy for convenience (large dealer network, ease of installation), WAF, and other reasons not related to accurate reproduction. RGA, you understand this distinction as you stated, but did not make this distinction until later on in the discussion. Somehow this is still evading Mark's needlessly conflagratory argument. But, yes, some people are led to believe that the wave radio can sound like a large "traditional" stereo system. However, whether or not their belief that this is true cannot be determined and truly should not be judged. Maybe there are those who have never seen any of Bose's ads and their wild claims (as I'd see it), who wandered into a Bose outlet and literally believed a bose wave radio to sound just as good, and as big as their old Magnepan setup. It's subjective preference. Maybe they're almost deaf or just guilty of brand lust. I believe both of you to be guilty of generalizing. In Mark's case, the very arrogant comment where he claimed to speak on the behalf of everyone on this forum when he characterized RGA as being snobbish.

[JohnMichael]

And so will I..

I'll say what I want to whomever I want. Paticularly to snobs like you when you get full of yourselves and need an enema. I'll be here to insert it.

And, no JM. I'm not switching sides.

TTFN

Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

[markw]

Wow that is rude and offensive in so many ways.

It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

[Hyfi]

All pretty entertaining considering that the referenced article is ONLY someone else opinion and had very little real facts in it. Hardly worth the bandwidth and server space this will take up. Specially from someone who labels himself An Elitist JERK.

[JohnMichael]

It was truly meant in good humor. I'm sorry you didn't see it that way.

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

[Hyfi]

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

And the whole thread is about going out of your way to offend someone, or a whole group of someones.

Definitely uncalled for, and not a bit funny.

[markw]

All pretty entertaining considering that the referenced article is ONLY someone else opinion and had very little real facts in it. Hardly worth the bandwidth and server space this will take up. Specially from someone who labels himself An Elitist JERK.

And yet was used as a springboard to dig on Bose and those who choose to purchase it. I guess it's like using the "N" word at a KKK meeting since the common belief is that nobody there would object.

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony", as well as the difference between "specially" and "especially".

[Hyfi]

And yet was used as a springboard to dig on Bose and those who choose to purchase it. I guess it's like using the "N" word at a KKK meeting since the common belief is that nobody there would object.

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony", as well as the difference between "specially" and "especially".

Oh, sorry my grammar and word usage is not up to your elitist standards. You got the point tho. (and I spelled Though incorrectly on purpose because I type all day)

[Hyfi]

And, as for my tag line, you might want to look up the meaning of "irony"

And we are supposed to believe you are the total opposite of an Elitist and a Jerk? How ironic!

[markw]

I was not even participating in the thread. Wow and you thought it was humorous.

And, as a moderator, I assumed you were monitoring it. If you want to be offended, feel free, but just know it was not my intent. I'm not going to lose any sleep either way, though.

[markw]

And we are supposed to believe you are the total opposite of an Elitist and a Jerk? How ironic!

Believe whatever you wish. It's probably got no basis in reality anyway.

[Hyfi]

But, ultimately, Bose has a very satisfied client base. If not, word of mouth would have put them out of business years ago

Wal Mart also has a very large satisfied customer base and all they sell is disposable junk. Cheaply priced junk is what keeps them in business. Can we lump all those consumers into a specific Label? You bet you can. I know plenty of people who will purchase the same cheap ass item and throw it away to get a new one as opposed to doing a little more research and spending a little more money to get a quality item that lasts longer and end up saving money and time.

Bose customers are not much different. They see an Add, they see a Bose store, they see little tiny speakers you can hide from your wife but they DON"T compare a Bose setup to a similarly priced setup that you can piece together because it is just easier to buy the Bose than to do some extra homework. If they did the research and realized that for the same money they could have a better sounding setup, things may be different. But, the majority of humans are just simply lazy.

Bose has OK quality items for the casual listener and good customer service but they sell more because they market more and correctly compared to high end MFGs.

They don't sink squat into R&D, they Market what they have already created well.

[Hyfi]

Believe whatever you wish. It's probably got no basis in reality anyway.

I can only believe what I see and read, if we met outside of a cyber world, I would probably have a different opinion but again it would be worthless.

[markw]

Wal Mart also has a very large satisfied customer base and all they sell is disposable junk. Cheaply priced junk is what keeps them in business. Can we lump all those consumers into a specific Label? You bet you can. I know plenty of people who will purchase the same cheap ass item and throw it away to get a new one as opposed to doing a little more research and spending a little more money to get a quality item that lasts longer and end up saving money and time.

Bose customers are not much different. They see an Add, they see a Bose store, they see little tiny speakers you can hide from your wife but they DON"T compare a Bose setup to a similarly priced setup that you can piece together because it is just easier to buy the Bose than to do some extra homework. If they did the research and realized that for the same money they could have a better sounding setup, things may be different. But, the majority of humans are just simply lazy.

Bose has OK quality items for the casual listener and good customer service but they sell more because they market more and correctly compared to high end MFGs.

They don't sink squat into R&D, they Market what they have already created well.

Apparantly, you gleaned nothing from this entire thread, and not just from my posts. Did you even nother to read it? ...and yet you want to be taken seriously?

P.S.. What's an "Add"? Is that something like a "Subtract"?

[Hyfi]

Apparantly, you gleaned nothing from this entire thread, and not just from my posts. Did you even nother to read it? ...and yet you want to be taken seriously?

P.S.. What's an "Add"? Is that something like a "Subtract"?

Maybe you should spell check yourself bobo.

WTF is a nother?

See and you act just like an elitist jerk yet ask us to view you just the opposite. What we see is what we get.

And yes I read the whole thread. It ended up being no different than a Taste Great-Less Filling argument.

Nobody can argue that most Bose customers can be lumped into a labeled group. Are they all idiots? I don't think so but the majority of them are lazy or really don't care about anything more than looks and convenience.

[markw]

Maybe you should spell check yourself bobo.

WTF is a nother?

Try "Bother". That is called a"typo". You'll notice that the "B" and "N" keys are next to each other and all it takes is a slip of a finger. That's a lot different than a total misspelling or unintentional use of a entirely different word with extra letters, particularly when it's needlessly capitalized.

See and you act just like an elitist jerk yet ask us to view you just the opposite. What we see is what we get.

How so? By getting riled when an entire group of people is being ridiculed for their preferences?

And yes I read the whole thread. It ended up being no different than a Taste Great-Less Filling argument.

Nobody can argue that most Bose customers can be lumped into a labeled group. Are they all idiots? I don't think so but the majority of them are lazy or really don't care about anything more than looks and convenience.

So, just because they don't care about the same things you and your real "elitist jerk" buddies do, then you can smugly boast amongst yourselves that they were stupidly blinded by the light of marketing hype and make fun of them?

Right.. .so, who's really the elitist here?

[Hyfi]

How so? By getting riled when an entire group of people is being ridiculed for their preferences?

So, just because they don't care about the same things you and your real "elitist jerk" buddies do, then you can smugly boast amongst yourselves that they were stupidly blinded by the light of marketing hype and make fun of them?

Right.. .so, who's really the elitist here?

How so? You had nothing else so you decided to be the spelling and grammar police. Pretty much everyone types too fast and makes simple mistakes. You knew exactly what I meant but felt the need to belittle me for a few simple mistakes. I guess that regains your spot as the Elitist and most perfect typist of the online community. I bow to your superiority.

I am not making fun of anyone who chooses to buy a Bose product. I just stated a few of my own opinions as to why a certain group of people do. I actually think the Wave sounds pretty good for a clock radio but it is just overpriced.

One can do so much better than a $3500 Lifestyle system but they are mostly just lazy and don't care about quality over aesthetics. You can get 5 good speakers, a sub and a nice HT receiver that would blow away a Bose setup for around $2k so guess what, that does make them stupid and lazy.

And since this is just an stupid message board, if you get all riled up you should maybe get a life.

[mlsstl]

You can get 5 good speakers, a sub and a nice HT receiver that would blow away a Bose setup for around $2k so guess what, that does make them stupid and lazy.

I think it is certainly possible for someone to choose a Bose or similar system without being either "stupid or lazy".

Not everyone wants 6 speaker boxes in a room with all of the attendant wiring needed, or has the proper spots for them.

I've also known many, many extremely talented musicians over the years who couldn't care less about the quality of their stereo. Once they hear what the artist is up to, their mind provides everything else they need.

I say this without ever having owned a Bose product. I just know that I'm wasting my time making judgements about others who have chosen differently that I have.

I know for certain that I regularly make choices that aren't up-to-snuff for aficionados in other fields. I think it would be a pretty safe bet to make about anyone.

Pity this discussion has gone so far off the rails.

[Hyfi]

I think it is certainly possible for someone to choose a Bose or similar system without being either "stupid or lazy".

Not everyone wants 6 speaker boxes in a room with all of the attendant wiring needed, or has the proper spots for them.

I've also known many, many extremely talented musicians over the years who couldn't care less about the quality of their stereo. Once they hear what the artist is up to, their mind provides everything else they need.

I say this without ever having owned a Bose product. I just know that I'm wasting my time making judgements about others who have chosen differently that I have.

I know for certain that I regularly make choices that aren't up-to-snuff for aficionados in other fields. I think it would be a pretty safe bet to make about anyone.

Pity this discussion has gone so far off the rails.

I know, I was just pushing Mark's buttons since this seems to bother him to the point where he has to attempt to make others look stupid and small because they make a few typing mistakes and he is "so riled up".

I really don't care what people buy or like, until they start trying to tell me how great it is.

Believe me, I am called Cheap and whatever all the time because I "choose not to have other than DSL and a Roof Antenna among other decisions I make.
It's all good. If nothing else, I get lots of chuckles over internet persona. Maybe others get chuckles out of mine, no worries.

[RGA]

I would consider it snobbish to think that ALL Bose buyers are ignorant of better brands. SOME are and some aren't. There are those who buy bose for the brand-whore and aethetic appeal. These are the people who I believe RGA is attacking here. I happen to agree with him. Doesn't make me a snob- maybe a bit opinionated.

I didn't think I was attacking them; however, yes that is the difference. Aesthetic buyers versus the "brand-whore" to a not very good brand (in terms of sound quality). The sound quality opinion may be opinionated but not snobby. Interestingly, it is the reason one often pays MORE for BOSE and tells everyone it's the best - they are actually the ones who fit the definition of "snob" as they are buying the brand to "have it over" everyone else.

Somehow this is still evading Mark's needlessly conflagratory argument. But, yes, some people are led to believe that the wave radio can sound like a large "traditional" stereo system. However, whether or not their belief that this is true cannot be determined and truly should not be judged.

Not really sure that that is the issue. It doesn't really matter what the reason is for buying a wave radio. When it becomes an issue is when an owner says it's the best and decent hi-fi equipment. Merely stating the fact that they are ignorant of what is out there isn't being a snob - it's simply telling them by the way listen to any one of these 400 brands some of which are in driving distance from your house.

Maybe there are those who have never seen any of Bose's ads and their wild claims (as I'd see it), who wandered into a Bose outlet and literally believed a bose wave radio to sound just as good, and as big as their old Magnepan setup.

Possible, but highly doubtful. If you meet anyone let me know. If I meet anyone I'd be amazed. That's just it - I have never ever met anyone anywhere that has heard good quality audiophile brands and proceeded to purchase a Bose loudspeaker system. The Wave Radio is something else- I don;t know anyone who is an audiophile and bought one but I did read about a guy on a forum who did - but nobody is buying a clock radio to recreate the Philharmonic anyway.

There are generalizations and generalizations. When I say for example Bose is "viewed" by virtually every audiophile and reviewer on every audiophile website in the world as being overpriced for the coin I am coming up with that information on more than 10 years on audio forums and discussing it with reviewers.

I have not met anyone that traded in his SoundLab or AN's or Teresonics or Quad panels, or Magnepans, or Revels, JM Labs, etc etc for a set of Bose 901 loudspeakers. I have read many posts and know many people who had those speakers and dumped them.

Indeed, when I had the $250 B&W 302 loudspeakers and let a Bose 901 retailer (who didn't know much about audio and thought the 901 was best) audition the 302 he was so impressed he bought a pair for himself and sold his 901s. The 302 is a fine little speaker but it's still just a tiny 2 way for $250. The 901 was going for $1850 and is a royal pain in the arse to position.

So yes there may be an exception - there may be a Scaena or Perfect 8 Technologies speaker owner out there who decides - nope the Acoustimass sounds better. But the point of generalizing is that it is a "general" rule.

For instance I will mentions SS high feedback amps sound a certain way and invariably someone will mention Sugden or Pass Labs. But how many SS makers are out there that don't design amps in the same way and that are affordable? To me it's pretty safe to generalize when it's 90%+ part of the time.

The only audiophile poster I have met in support of the 901 was Soundmind/skeptic and even then only the first original model - and only after he basically rebuilt the entire thing and only with a special crossover presumably that he designed and only with additional drivers.

And I defend Bose more than most - the 901 is fine in a club where you want to spread the music around a large room - it works like a charm - much better than the sound in the pub when they were using Klipsch horn loudspeaker with a narrow focus. The 901 sounded better not just to cover the room either - it was less shouty and hard sounding - you could converse with the Bose in the background not intruding your conversation. In a home the Klipsch speakers sound better however in the listening chair (Ref 3).

[E-Stat]

"brand-whore"

Hey, great term! I happen to observe them.

[RGA]

I know the term well since people grossly mistakingly call me one a fair bit. The difference is that it requires a person to love every product that the brand makes and state that each item is the "best" to the exclusion of all else. People tend to believe this about me which is patently untrue and there is an abundance of evidence of a cross section of my posts that indicate that.

I do have certain preferences at certain price points that I consider to be "best of a given class" but then so do most individuals and indeed review publications with their rankings.

I think it is natural for people to become brand loyal to the extent they expect certain qualities from brands - Honda and Toyota built brand loyalty through the 80s and 90s by building care that didn't fall apart as often as American cars. Indeed, in a UK study a Ford would fail 8 times more often than comparable Toyota models and the Fords also had the double whammy of having more costly (bigger) problems. And this was the BEST American company in the listing. Some GMs were 25 times more likely to fail than a Tercel. And they had the actual repair figures.

So being brand loyal makes sense. The fact that Toyota and Honda have both slipped big time and the American's have improved - while it may be true - it is difficult to go back to a company you had bad experiences with and leave one you had good experiences with.

In Audio - I have certain expectations of Audio Note - and when it doesn't live up to my expectations I may be far harder on them than I would be with a company that usually makes mediocre sounding gear. I expect when Audio Note brings out the AX One loudspeaker that it will be a class leader and game changer at the entry level. And when it's not - then I rip it harder than a B&W where my expectation is lower.

The one thing about Bose is that at least their prices have been coming down over the years. The Acoustimass is about half the price that it used to be. Something like $699 - used to be around $1300-$1500. $699 is about the same price as other similar looking cube systems found in the big box chains. The Wave Radio is only a couple hundred more than competitors not triple the price.