I need very sensitive speakers that wont break the bank

[theaudiohobby]

Sorry but if you read their site they miodified the driver -- cabinets play a role -- Ports/cabinets can add a full octave -- they do in audio note speakers and they do in a number of others. I can easily see a gain at their rated 58hz -- BTW there is a measurement on this little speaker and it measures 13db down at 32hz which is not that bad at all considering it's $549.00....
"So that's what you wouldn't hear if the Super 3 only covered 58Hz to 20KHz with nothing below. However, in my room the Super 3's response was reasonably flat to 63Hz where it rolled off until it was about 13dB down at 31.5Hz, with nothing below that

Do you appreciate what it means for a speaker to be 13dB down in-room? albeit at significantly reduced volume,LOL? Ports and cabinets make a contribution but as I mentioned earlier it is still more like 58+/-10dB. Neither the cabinet nor port will support additional dB in the higher octaves and it is only 93dB within a very narrow range within 3-15kHz on axis, for the most part it is more correctly 90dB and will you be brave enough to provide us some links, Secondly, sensitivity ratings are objective measurements, you cannot gauge the precise sensitivity by ear. Read my post, I said I was interested in buying the speaker in spite of it inaccurate sensitivity ratings.

[kexodusc]

The Omega 3R is a good illustration, because 58Hz-20Hz for a single driver speaker is a very ambitious, it is more correctly 58hz - 20Hz, +/-10 dB, and achieve 93 dB sensitivity in a very restricted range. Whilst writing this I found the FR curves for the driver

and it is indeed -12db at 100Hz axis(excluding port contribution), look at the performance >15Kz, @20Kkz on axis, it is -10dB or more, and off axis, it is almost -20dB, it is only hits 93dB and only on axis between 3KHz and 8KHz with a small recovery at 15KHz, at 30deg, off axis, it never hits 93dB at any time , off axis the response starts to fall off from as low at 2KHz, and it never recovers, except if listened to on-axis, this will be a bass light and very mellow sounding speaker. FTR, I am interested in buying this speaker ,because a fellow whose opinions I respect owns one and likes them, however the published specs are still very ambitious.

I've heard some good things about this speaker, haven't heard it myself yet...
Some things to consider though - The Frequency of Resonance of this driver is around 80 Hz (you can see this from the impedence spike), porting will probably add a big boost centered around 65 or 70 Hz if it's tuned below Fs but that effect likely won't add any SPL above 130 Hz or so...
If I read this thread correctly, that graph was just the driver? If that's the case, I'd expect even more significant loss of SPL between 1500 Hz and 200 Hz (3 to 6 dB unless placed against walls) resulting from lack of baffle step compensation in the crossover...It's a gradual loss, but most FR plots are zero or infinite baffle setups which don't account for this. I think it was mentioned that this speaker doesn't have a crossover, right? (might want to investigate that - you'd be surprised to know many single-driver speakers don't have crossovers per se, but they do have compensation circuitry for impedance and BSC still) Or conversely, if that FR plot is of the speaker, you would get a 3-6 dB boost between 200 and 1500Hz or so in a room environment and that might be how they arrive at the 93 dB efficiency?

[theaudiohobby]

I've heard some good things about this speaker, haven't heard it myself yet...
Some things to consider though - The Frequency of Resonance of this driver is around 80 Hz (you can see this from the impedence spike), porting will probably add a big boost centered around 65 or 70 Hz if it's tuned below Fs but that effect likely won't add any SPL above 130 Hz or so...
If I read this thread correctly, that graph was just the driver? If that's the case, I'd expect even more significant loss of SPL between 1500 Hz and 200 Hz (3 to 6 dB unless placed against walls) resulting from lack of baffle step compensation in the crossover...It's a gradual loss, but most FR plots are zero or infinite baffle setups which don't account for this. I think it was mentioned that this speaker doesn't have a crossover, right? (might want to investigate that - you'd be surprised to know many single-driver speakers don't have crossovers per se, but they do have compensation circuitry for impedance and BSC still) Or conversely, if that FR plot is of the speaker, you would get a 3-6 dB boost between 200 and 1500Hz or so in a room environment and that might be how they arrive at the 93 dB efficiency?

kexodusc,

I largely with your analysis, it is almost certainly an in room measurement, since aneochoic driver measurements averages it out 90dB below 2KHz, an inroom measurement of 93dB will be about right, ironically that means that the Kef Q1 with an aneochoic sensitivity rating of 91dB is actually more sensitive, much the same point I made in my original post.

[kexodusc]

TAH: I'm not sure exactly for what application you're looking at using the 3R's for but the only other thing to consider is the excursion characteristics of the driver and speaker itself. Manufacturers usually just post the maximum electrical power handling ability of the speaker - problem is the woofer usually hits excursion maximum limits well before that. You'll always see a incredibly steep, fast rise immediately below the box tuning frequency.
A high sensitivity driver is fine, but with the frequency of resonance and box tuning relatively high on this driver, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that just 1 or 2 watts pushes this thing to maximum excursion in the high 30/low 40 Hz area or higher. This is common dilemma in many single driver units I've heard. Great for loud listening on low power systems in mid sized rooms, but anything louder and you run the risk of derioration of sound quality or damage.

I friend of mine found this out the hard way when he bought some fancy European single-driver speakers for his local pub...the kids at the bar turned the music up really loud the first night and roasted 3 of the 4 speakers. That was $3600 mistake.

[theaudiohobby]

I had not thought of that, I intended to use it with a 50W amplifier, the fellow I am referring uses them in a lower powered system, based on your comments, it is safer to high pass filter in the region ~50Hz, to prevent overexcursion. correct?

[kexodusc]

it is safer to high pass filter in the region ~50Hz, to prevent overexcursion. correct?

Intuitively yes, if you don't mind losing that bottom end response some, depending on the slope of the high pass filter (or low cut, whatever)....For most music, as you know, there isn't much information below 40 Hz anyway. Any idea specifically what a reasonable -3 dB response is on these speakers?

In your case a second order high pass filter at 25Hz (or 50 Hz depending on your perspective) would mitigate a lot of cone movement and be up 12 dB at 50Hz (or down 12 dB at 25 Hz, confused yet? ) Might need a bit of trial and error for best results. I usually see these just below the box's frequency of tuning (60-70 Hz on the 3R?), but you can go lower, especially on speakers with limited bass response.

As a friend of mine would say, "Turn up the good, turn down the suck"

I might be a bit more ambitious and cross it over a bit lower than that if I knew a bit more about the driver. I've seen in-line passive high pass filters between the amp and pre-amp become more and more popular over the last year or so. And for good reason...there's minimal, if any insertion loss, they're extremely cheap, and not very difficult to do yourself if you know your way around resistors and capacitors. Did I mention they were cheap? You can buy high quality components are only a few dollars an element. Even in very high-end gear, if you know what brand/type/grade of components are used in your amp/pre-amp you can buy those resistors/caps as well to keep the component quality throughout.

At some point in the future I'm going to tackle this on my own systems.

This is one area where digital amps and home theater receivers have good quality analog separates licked...I'd love to see pre-amps start coming with some sort of variable bass control in them, or at least more external filters sold as accessories by the speaker or amp company...but I digress.

[RGA]

Most makers don't claim a sensitivity rating in a anechoic chamber -- since we don't listen to speakers in chambers. Sensitivity ratings are averaged and in room response...some Klipsh tweeter were 115db sensitive while the woofer is chugging in at 85 -- on average they come up with 95-100db.

Kex there is no crossover. No one in all likelylyhood is going to tell the difference of 3db in sensitiviy in a loudspeaker. This Omega speaker as well as any and all Audio Note speakers will be quite happy with a 10 watt amp and will play loud. This Omega speaker is quite happy with 3.5watts. perfect folks it is not but it better than many more expensive speakers (numbers wise anyway) than a great many more expensive ones. And as some of you SHOULD be pointing out to me by now -- you can always fix anything with a SUBWOOFER.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/omega2/super3.html

[kexodusc]

Kex there is no crossover. No one in all likelylyhood is going to tell the difference of 3db in sensitiviy in a loudspeaker.

It's not so much the efficiency I'm worried about as much as it is the over-all sound...a 1 dB difference over a wide enough band can mean the difference between harsh or not, for example...

And as some of you SHOULD be pointing out to me by now -- you can always fix anything with a SUBWOOFER.

Is that supposed to be sarcasm, humor, or sincerity? I don't recall anyone ever saying you could fix anything with a subwoofer...compliment yes, but fix...no.

As for power handling...mechanical power handling very much depends on the source signal - IMO better to play it safe than not. YMMV.

[theaudiohobby]

Thanks kex, I will keep your comments in my mind, and I might just try my hands at a small passive crossover , though I seem to recall see some inline passive crossover being advertised a while back.

[RGA]

It's not so much the efficiency I'm worried about as much as it is the over-all sound...a 1 dB difference over a wide enough band can mean the difference between harsh or not, for example...


Is that supposed to be sarcasm, humor, or sincerity? I don't recall anyone ever saying you could fix anything with a subwoofer...compliment yes, but fix...no.

As for power handling...mechanical power handling very much depends on the source signal - IMO better to play it safe than not. YMMV.

Well it's sarcasm of a sort since it is obvious this particular company has deliberately chosen a single driver design to meet their philosphy (well sorta) that 'crossing" over is bad -- and yet they have subwoofer recommendations. I find that humorous - if the speaker sounds good through the vocal band up and a sub can mate with it (never heard this done at any prce personally but some others are probably far less picky I'm sure) then for not a whole lot of cash this could be a good speaker.

I will be attending the next CES and have quite the list of stuff to audition and see what stacks up and what does not.

[kexodusc]

Well it's sarcasm of a sort since it is obvious this particular company has deliberately chosen a single driver design to meet their philosphy (well sorta) that 'crossing" over is bad -- and yet they have subwoofer recommendations

Well this is easy, so just relax, hold my hand and I'll step you through this so even you can understand -

I'm sure you can agree that any given speaker is inherently compromised at some level. I'm sure Peter Qvortrup would admit that even that wicked AN E/ SE Sogon could be improved if cost was no object.

As it stands, 1/2 of Omega's philosophy was affordablility. The other 1/2 was a seamless integration of sound and high efficiency. By removing a crossover from the most sensitive range of hearing and placing it in the least sensitive where frequencies are non-directional, it's easy to see how they've accomlished this at the prices they're comfortable with.
If cost was no object I'm sure they could make a full-range speaker that wouldn't "need" a subwoofer recommendation.

I find that humorous - if the speaker sounds good through the vocal band up and a sub can mate with it (never heard this done at any prce personally but some others are probably far less picky I'm sure) .

That's to bad, my very picky ears, and those of thousands of others have.

You either really have a narrow-minded view on things or you just get a kick out of provoking people on web-forums. I've told you before I know even Audio Note owners who employ subwoofers for the added benefits they can provide, I'm not going to engage in the subwoofer discussion with you at this point in time unless you really want to. Your personal tastes notwithstanding, the uninformed opinion that subwoofers are just bad or unecessary or that they cannot integrate with a speaker seamlessly is just wrong on so many levels for reasons you already know deep down inside.

It's unfortunate it will take nothing less than a recommendation by the messiah Peter Qvortrup himself to sway your prejudiced opinion.

In the meantime, I would suggest you use a bit more restraint - you have a habbit of regurgitating Audio Note's philosophy here in a way that's condescending towards the people who approach their systems differently than AN fanboys. While I'm sure you don't mean to, you do come across as a bit arrogant at times. If we were to substitute audio gear with religion your approach would be taboo...
Wouldn't it be possible for you to present your comments in a strictly positive, constructive manner without always finding a way to be negative towards other design philosophies?

[RGA]

I can't recommend something for someone to do if I don't think it's any good. i felt this way a decade before i ever heard of Audio note so continually saying I merely re-state Peter's opinions is an outright lie -- look at my posts between 1999 to now and they're pretty much the same with subwoofers. I'm not the only person who dislikes subwoofers for music.

Reviewer Neil Walker
"A musical bass is a rare phenomenon. There are lots of powered sub-woofers that will shake you, the sofa, the wine in your glass, even the household guard dog. However, they do all the shaking at what sounds like one frequency. I am still looking for the instrument which produces the one-note thump, the very same thump regardless of what the score calls for. The thump phenomenon becomes even more odious as you expand your bass investigation into records that use stringed bass instruments such as the piano, upright acoustic bass or the bass guitar. When you hear Charlie Hunter sounding like the one-note thumper, then you know you have hit a loser of a loudspeaker. (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...2/gershman.htm)

The thing is most speakers sound like this so adding a sub to it probably doesn't hurt. I suggest you listen to a non kit E speaker because to be blunt the Kits are nowhere near as good a production E and my audition of a Kit E was that the bass was not tuneful comapratively -- they are still good but I would not buy one to save a few bucks that's for sure.

[kexodusc]

I don't mind the subtle product bashing...but maybe ya could be a bit more discrete - less confrontational - give a strength (even if you're lying) for every flaw you find, just to present your view.

I've never heard the AN E kit...I have an Uncle who belongs to an AN fanboy club in Atlanta (it consist of himself and 2 others). He's got the AN-E /Spe's. He also did an AN E kit and has told it me does do quite well for the money, not as good as the base model AN E, but better than than several other AN models below (I assume basic derivatives of the K and J?).
My experiences with AN have been limited to the AN K's, AX Two's and AN E's. The AN K's really impressed me with acoustic music, very intimate.. For amplifed music I found them good, but not overly distinguished from the rest of the pack. I tend to agree with you on the sub $2000 level, that the AN K (lx) is a pretty fine speaker for the buck. I generally found the AN E to be a superb speaker and anything I find wrong with it is just me being fussy. Very sparkly. The AX two's I've only heard in a store but I thought were pretty mediocre and didn't sound overly impressive at all. Not bad, but I've heard better in that price range. Can't win them all though. I've heard several of their amps/dac's etc, but I couldn't tell you which ones, I didn't pay attention for the most part, I've been more of a speaker afficianado than a component jockey, though I'm starting to wisen up.

As for the subwoofers. If I listened to subs from 1995 to 1999 I would probably be so discouraged with them that I'd give up, and as of 2005 not consider a sub again. Lucky for me I didn't. My last 3 subwoofers have been anything but one note in performance (though the Paradigm was incredibly boomy if crossed over above 60 Hz, and not the fastest responder). My current 15" sealed unit is an absolutely fabulous musical piece. It differs from most of the Home Theater subs in that it doesn't use a lot of power (200 watts max) and has a relatively low excursion of 10mm. Instead of focusing on reaching 16 Hz and 115 dB of SPL, it was made to be the best it could be from 19 Hz up, at no higher than 105 dB average SPL (though it easily handles 115 dB for movie peaks or short musical impacts when necessary, but I don't listen in room above 92 dB often). Combined with a powerful motor and magnet, it is tight, accurate, fast and very musical. Best part is, it's f3 is 21 Hz and I can move it to the best location in the room, which is about 7 feet from my speakers. My muti-channel system has an f3 at 45 Hz and usuable bass to about 40 in my room (-3dB with room gain). It drops incredibly fast below that. You'd be amazed at how easily a 3.5 cubic foot subwoofer can disappear so easily when crossed over at 40 hz.
For classical, jazz, and any progressive rock music with lots of spacy effects it's quite necessary to get down into the low 20's with authority without limiting midrange performance, something even the greatest speakers struggle with. You don't know what you're missing until you hear a good musical sub.
I don't think there's enough out there, and the ones that are so rediculously overpriced or hard to find. That's unfortunate.
.

[VAB]

I have to jump in here and say that though it is not the best combination, my Sonic Impact T-amp will drive the B&W 601 s3 speakers quiet loudly and with excellent bass. These speakers are rated at 8 ohm (3 ohm minimum), 88 dB/1watt, so the impedance curve isn't exactly benign. I'm just telling you this by way of comparison, not meaning to imply that it is the optimal choice of speaker. Let's say it goes as loud as I can stand in my bedroom system.

[RGA]

I don't mind the subtle product bashing...but maybe ya could be a bit more discrete - less confrontational - give a strength (even if you're lying) for every flaw you find, just to present your view.

I've never heard the AN E kit...I have an Uncle who belongs to an AN fanboy club in Atlanta (it consist of himself and 2 others). He's got the AN-E /Spe's. He also did an AN E kit and has told it me does do quite well for the money, not as good as the base model AN E, but better than than several other AN models below (I assume basic derivatives of the K and J?).
My experiences with AN have been limited to the AN K's, AX Two's and AN E's. The AN K's really impressed me with acoustic music, very intimate.. For amplifed music I found them good, but not overly distinguished from the rest of the pack. I tend to agree with you on the sub $2000 level, that the AN K (lx) is a pretty fine speaker for the buck. I generally found the AN E to be a superb speaker and anything I find wrong with it is just me being fussy. Very sparkly. The AX two's I've only heard in a store but I thought were pretty mediocre and didn't sound overly impressive at all. Not bad, but I've heard better in that price range. Can't win them all though. I've heard several of their amps/dac's etc, but I couldn't tell you which ones, I didn't pay attention for the most part, I've been more of a speaker afficianado than a component jockey, though I'm starting to wisen up.

As for the subwoofers. If I listened to subs from 1995 to 1999 I would probably be so discouraged with them that I'd give up, and as of 2005 not consider a sub again. Lucky for me I didn't. My last 3 subwoofers have been anything but one note in performance (though the Paradigm was incredibly boomy if crossed over above 60 Hz, and not the fastest responder). My current 15" sealed unit is an absolutely fabulous musical piece. It differs from most of the Home Theater subs in that it doesn't use a lot of power (200 watts max) and has a relatively low excursion of 10mm. Instead of focusing on reaching 16 Hz and 115 dB of SPL, it was made to be the best it could be from 19 Hz up, at no higher than 105 dB average SPL (though it easily handles 115 dB for movie peaks or short musical impacts when necessary, but I don't listen in room above 92 dB often). Combined with a powerful motor and magnet, it is tight, accurate, fast and very musical. Best part is, it's f3 is 21 Hz and I can move it to the best location in the room, which is about 7 feet from my speakers. My muti-channel system has an f3 at 45 Hz and usuable bass to about 40 in my room (-3dB with room gain). It drops incredibly fast below that. You'd be amazed at how easily a 3.5 cubic foot subwoofer can disappear so easily when crossed over at 40 hz.
For classical, jazz, and any progressive rock music with lots of spacy effects it's quite necessary to get down into the low 20's with authority without limiting midrange performance, something even the greatest speakers struggle with. You don't know what you're missing until you hear a good musical sub.
I don't think there's enough out there, and the ones that are so rediculously overpriced or hard to find. That's unfortunate.
.

Where and how was the AX Two placed? I found that it sounded better than the Kit E I heard (save bass depth). But all my listening is done largely in one room. No one can gaurantee it will sound great in every room but in my experience with it against the compitors at soundhounds in the same room to me there is no comparison. It's actually my favorite Audio Note product of the lot because when you pay $3000.00 you had better bloody well get a good speaker -- $700.00 Cdn I don't expect it to
give the k a run and flatten costlier designs. But no it isn't a pyrotechnics champ -- my dealer also felt the signature version sounded worse for whatever reason - I have not heard it myself so i can't say. i'm surprised you have not gone to the Audio Note kits forum -- there are DIY who have built other speakers and amps. there is a DIYer I met last time I was at Soundhounds and his friend Lou Reda some known designer. the DIY is flying all the way to England just to discuss the E/kit with the crazy Dane. Apparently your suspicion is correct - the biggest change is in the crossovers.

[kexodusc]

AX two's were corner placed, which I find odd, but I'm told AN seems to recommend those for all their speakers...I assume they have no baffle step compensation computed into their speakers. Maybe this placement was bad? I could listen to it again, but it might be awhile. I think Halifax is the closest AN dealer to N.B. And I don't know where they'd be in Toronto (I'm there every month though).
Bass depth wasn't an issue in the AX Two...at least I don't recall thinking the bass sucked, and bass and treble are my first 2 tests. It just sounded like a $700 speaker to me (I think it was $599 US though). I would take it over some more expensive floorstanders. I wouldn't call it a bad speaker by any means. The room was probably 16 feet wide which might have been a burden for these, but the seat was rather nearfield, maybe 8 feet away?

Got a link to the DIY spot you're talking about?

[RGA]

The AX Two is not meant for the corner but it will work there -- my dealer had them in corners at first as well but peter said they are more like normal speakers -- they should not be that far apart -- I had them about 7 feet apart in a smaller room -- they do not perform well in big rooms apparently as one reviewer has mentioned (a review will be out in the next while for them from Positive feedback) ...they are more of a near filed kinda deal - stands should also be higher than normal aat 26 inches - the tweeters above the ear from what I understand.

The kits is just the one at Audio Asylum http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/au...ekits/bbs.html

and the maine web-site for ordering -- One day I may try the DAC kit as it looks to be good for beginners. http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/

[corwin99]

RGA, can you shoot me off an email to discuss the shoot-out/meetup? This is totally off topic but i have no other means of contacting you

[RGA]

When are you planning it? I am finished with school now for the summer -- I wouldn't call it a shootout since I'm not taking my gear out of here. Man i have one guy in Victoria after me to hear his Quad 57, there's another fellow here who has been lending his loaner J's(His E is on a waitlist) to every audiophile he knows -- man I just yack on forums -- this guy is driving around taking them to their homes LOL. and I'm the fanboy. You mentioned you don't have the corners clear anyway.

What kinda stuff are you displaying -- i always enjoy listening to Gershman - maybe it's cause it reminds me of Gershwin and nothings like a Gershwin tune

[RGA]

When are you planning it? I am finished with school now for the summer -- I wouldn't call it a shootout since I'm not taking my gear out of here. Man i have one guy in Victoria after me to hear his Quad 57, there's another fellow here who has been lending his loaner J's(His E is on a waitlist) to every audiophile he knows -- man I just yack on forums -- this guy is driving around taking them to their homes LOL. and I'm the fanboy. You mentioned you don't have the corners clear anyway.

What kinda stuff are you displaying -- i always enjoy listening to Gershman - maybe it's cause it reminds me of Gershwin and nothings like a Gershwin tune

I forgot you also have the K -- are you running tube gear with it? I forgot if you were the guy using them in the bedroom system due to the fact they need a smaller room.

[corwin99]

RGA.. Planning the Shootout for June 18, Saturday.. 10-11am or so until evening. It will be a shootout (kinda) cuz I got some friends from Vic, Duncan and Campbell River coming down and bringing various turntables and speakers and CD players.. we haven't decided on the gear yet.. will have to see who wants to hear what

We're just getting together for drinks and BBQ. I'll buy some burgers and whatnot and we'll just all kick it and listen to music. Bring some music if you don't want to bring gear. Shoot me an email... dood at dood dot ca

I do have the K/Spe.. and I am running it with a pair of Radii KT-88 Tube Monoblocks, with a SonoSilence One passive preamp/volume control. They are side-by-side with my gershmans in my main listening room.. i have two systems running in the same room.

[RGA]

hey I can make that weekend --- I love that you have people bring turntables -- I'm looking to upgrade mine and have not heard too many upper scale turntables -- sadly it seems most of the dealers don''t carry them anymore. I suppose i could bring something -- HD 600s and my ASL headphone amp? My ASL is the original non OTL version -- so the bass isn;t quite as deep as the newer ones - but on the other hand I think the DT cersion has a more liquid midrange -- I understand the new ASL has a swittch for you to go back and forth which is cool.

my email is richardg_austen@hotmail.com

This is a good idea you have here - enjoying the actual music gets lost in the techno gadgetry and this lets people get a flabvour of what the gear brings -- good gear is like ice-cream - pick the kind you like not everyone is going to like Rum & Raison but damn I do.