I heard the B&W 800d's today

[theaudiohobby]

Constantine Soo isn't the press. He's an audiophile writer who umm bought the speaker.

The same Constantine Soo that wrote this . Try a better line next time .

[Florian]

Did you post that to prove him wrong about the reviewer part?

[RGA]

The same Constantine Soo that wrote this . Try a better line next time .

Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.

He sure has deeper pockets than I.

[Florian]

Neat he has the very first Duetta!

-Flo

[RGA]

Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.

My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php

What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?

The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.

My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.

You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."

Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful

[RGA]

Neat he has the very first Duetta!

-Flo

he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.

I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.

And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well.

[Florian]

he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.

I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.

And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well.

Like i said, the old Dueatta. The First revision of the Duetta and build wise and soundwise the worst Duetta. The best one being the Duetta 2 MKII Reference Edition. Still kicks ass tough.

-Flo

PS: Panels are very different and sound very different from each other. Also they are highly picky on driving electronics and positioning by inches. Too give you a start about panel bass...my DIVA was measured yesterday in my room at -1db at 23Hz and output below 20. Panels can have serious bass and dynamics.

[Mr Peabody]

I like to bring some of my own discs because that's what I'm familiar with and one needs a point of reference. Nothing shows off the difference in a component like putting it your own system though.

I brought the Sheffield Labs James Newton Howard & Friends to a store one time and heard it played on a Rotel system. That's what formed my opinion of Rotel, finding them laid back and sluggish sounding. Anyone familiar with this disc should realize it is quite snappy and dynamic. So sometimes it is helpful to have your own point of reference. The salesman suggested that my equipment may have scued my opinion, that my gear was too fast. This CD was used by IASCA as a reference in car audio contests and used as a demo by many of my friends who are in audio sales and I'm reasonably sure this recording is snappy and dynamic.

I can also remember being in the shoes of the guy RGA described, the first time I walked into a truely high end audio store with my Great White CD and had the guy play it through a Krell system driving a $25k pair of Dynaudio speakers I remember thinking "where's the mid-bass, this isn't so great" and then the guy put the Paula Cole CD in, which I hadn't heard before, and the first track had some incredible low end, and my jaw dropped in amazement. I felt like an earthquake hit the building.

Flo- you and I must have totally different characteristics we listen for, you dislike 2 of my favorite brands, Dynaudio and Martin Logan.

[GMichael]

I love KEF.....like a smooth brandy....been around for more than a day...and will be around for years to come. the 104's are great speakers in the used realm.


Peace, Pogue

Cool, Thanks.

[GMichael]

Good build quality, innovative and quite underrated in the box realm.

-Flo

PS: Dont worry about the thread, this isnt about a 800 anymore

Thank you

[Jimmy C]

Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.

My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php

What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?

The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.

My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.

You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."

Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful

...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?

I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.

I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...

[theaudiohobby]

Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.

He sure has deeper pockets than I.

At the time of that review, he was writing for StereoTimes, so yes so he was a member of the press.

[RGA]

Yes but he did buy the speakers - did not know it was an actual hard print magazine??? Where do you buy a store copy?

Steven Rochlin was an audiophile and drummer who I believe started up enjoythemusic.com and became the chief editor where other audiophiles who felt like writing a review would submit them. Rochlin is not paid. Constantine Soo is not paid (to my knowledge). John Atkinson and Sam Tellig, Martin Colloms, and John Marks ARE paid and make profit.

Of course you are correct that one does not need to read a review nor should they base their opinion off one. Using a review to illustrate a different point though such as the way I have used it here is not to "prove" that you will like it but rather there are those who have many speakers and like a number of them. I could merely TELL you that I know of a person and you could think I made it up.

Of course none of it means that Mr. Soo is any more correct than any Joe blow off the street -- so on that the point is well taken. Even in a blind listening trial if you had 20 people and 18 chose the AN set-up that means that 2 did not or vice versa so until you're in it you can't know.

[RGA]

...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?

I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.

I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...

Accuracy as described in that essay and within the confines of it. One would have to agree on how much stock one puts into that definition. It can apply to any brand though and many other speakers may do very well. It just isn't about the speakers though there are symibotic relationship with the ancillaries and room. I usually don't post short duration listening sessions or first time listening sessions precisely because that can be a bad first impression or bad system match. I have done so since but I am sure to be upfront when I do like I was with my B&W Diamond session. Usually, as with a number of toher speakers i have listened to them on a few noteworthy systems and in at least two different rooms and for at least a few different tracks of music that I do know fairly well.

That of course runs counter intuitive to AN's CbyC method. Trouble is their method takes a long time and like you I'm not entirely trusting of dealers who may choose the music that the given speakers excel at. I don't want a speaker that covers over weaknesses but I also don;t want one that latches on to a minor problem and iover blow it so that it is totally unlistenable -- such a speaker may overblow a well recorded album but overblowing something that is well recorded won't likely make it sound terrible but give you a wow factor. But then it boils down to taste and if this is what one likes then go for it.

This realization is precisely why I have begun to think about easing my way off the internet. Getting caught up in the subjective argument is ike arguing the Schindler's List is a better movie than Ace Ventura Pet Detective --- which was also a tiresome argument which is why I no longer post at Rottentomatoes.

I have listened to a number of Paradigm/B&W speakers over the years and I found something that I felt bettered handedly anything I had heard from other makers. So trying to convey that to people who may not know about them was the intent. Especially a little plug for the dealer that carried all of them I felt that hey don't trust me just go down there and directly A/B them and see if you agree with me. Here's some reviews X Y and Z knowing many only respond to press first. Unfortunately I wrote in a very heavy handed way blasting some of the other brands in the process where I should have just discussed the merits of the AN speaker I heard and left it at that. Live and learn eh?

[dean_martin]

Well if you ever come to Victoria Canada (take the ferry from Seattle) drop by Soundhounds in Victoria -- it would be nice to actually hear some of these in the exact same listening rooms with an extensive amount of gear. There is also the Audio Show in Vegas in January -- All the companies generally attend -- Audio Note will have two rooms this year so I am trying to pull the coinage together to go.

If you came up to Nanaimo (an hour notrh of Victoria i'd let you listen to my set-up...but I'd rather "pit" them against something esopecially when one is unfamiliar with the room acoustics (same room then all speakers have the same/similar advantage disadvantage if approprioate size room).

Soundhounds has several fellows scope out new stuff to carry from CES and I have mentioned Von Sweikert as something to go listen to as well and Spender. Neither seems well represented in BC.

Hey, RGA - I just saw your post. This thread had gotten a little long for my attention span. Thanks, for the invite! I hope to take the family to the Pacific NW one day.

I keep up with the schedules for the different home entertainment shows, too. I missed the Rocky Mountain show by a month or so. Oh well, a little better planning on my part might get me to one in NY or Vegas.

[RGA]

The one in Vegas is usually held or so I'm tol early January -- last year it was around the 6th. I graduate in December and I'd like to give this to myself as a grad gift and a Birthday present (Jan 11th). I will have to check my budget and see if I can sneak in with the Soundhounds crew if one of them doesn't go.

[Mr Peabody]

Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.

[Florian]

Should be interesting, Krell and AN is about as much of a difference as AN and Apogee.
Keep us posted ;-)

[RGA]

Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.

It will be interesting how the DAC does in such a very dissimilar voiced set-up.

[Mr Peabody]

I have the Audio Note 1.1x in my system. This was a demo unit and when I received it the guy forgot to send me a BNC to RCA adaptor for the digital input. Talking about an excitement killer. By the time I hooked it up and noticed it was too late to go out and find one. I'm using a Radio Shack Gold until the one shipped arrives. I'm also using Transparent cables off other gear until I decide if I want to stick with them.

Anyway first impressions, I like it. It's the first digital source with RCA hook ups that gave the Krell's XLR balanced a run for it's money. First let me say in other comparisons I've done to the Krell I firmly decided the 280cd is a great sounding unit and even at retail of $3,250.00 a good value. With that being said, comparing it to the 1.1x makes the 280cd sound sort of glaring. The 1.1x has a very nice high end that decays even slower than the Krell. I like the 280cd better for drums and it makes things sound somewhat larger than the 1.1x. The 280cd has more impact and gives things a harder sound where the 1.1x conveys a softer presentation without sounding artificial, sluggish or valed. The 1.1x also seems to give music more of a groove or sense of rhythym. The 1.1x is not as euphoric or fleshy as I was hoping but that may be due to running it through solid state pre and power amp and different brand cables may make a difference. But I don't plan to experiment much with cables unless I can find some loaners. Both DACs seem to be equal as far as revealing information off the disc. They have different presentations but I haven't heard anything from a disc that the other unit didn't show as well. If I had to choose only one I'm actually leaning toward the Audio Note. This unit has been described to me as "organic" which didn't mean anything to me but when you hear the unit you understand. It sounds so good I think I could for go the strenghs the 280cd brings to the table for the strenths of the 1.1x. The 1.1x is far from sounding digital yet it does not have any of the stereotype tube weaknesses, the highs are not rolled off, the bass is not as tight and forceful as Krell but it's not mushy or tubby either. It would be interesting to see if the bass integrity was as good through a tube amp. The 1.1x is a very nice piece. I'd love the hear their better DAC's and even some of their gear but once you are used to 250 wpc of Krell power I know a single ended amp isn't going to cut it with me. If I ever got serious to convert my system I'd have to look at some larger powered tube models.

RGA, you should drop one of the 1.1x into your system. For some one who seems to be able to hear the difference in gear I'm surprised you don't have a better digital source. Trust me when I tell you there is a difference in the sound of cdp or DAC's. Cambridge is no slouch but they are not in the league with AN.

[RGA]

Mr. Peabody -- You know I have been highly impressed with PMC and Bryston match-ups...we live in a world where there is so much choice little time to simply just relax and enjoy something. In an ideal world I'd like the an all AN system and perhaps two or three other systems in 2-3 other rooms just to have a different flavour - my favorite ice-cream is chocolate chip mint but I don't want it ALL the time.

You wanted the tube dac for a specific purpose and hopefully it does what you want and makes you happy - seems so far you're pleased. And after being in tirade arguments here over the last two days or so the reality is that the only person you need to answer to is yourself. You don't need to try an AN set-up because you like what you have - why? The AN speakers are not efficient enough with their SET amps to be able provide the "impact" of some systems. If you love impact then there are many out there and you probably already have it. This is RGA attempting to be objective in an overall sense. I would not mind hearing a HF version of their speaker and one of their upper scale amplifiers.

Perhaps if you get a chance to hear one view it more as a medium room system at relaxing levels -- or a bedroom set-up on music that does not require "slam" but intimite kind of stuff. I think You'll be surprised at the power transfer and their ability to Rock -- but they are not going to compete I don;t think with a big PMC with 250watt monoblocks -- I personally left those truly stupifying deafening levels behind years ago. I think Constantine Soo also noted that with the AN set-up compared to his big mondo Gensis IV that the AN presented Metallica in a "philisophical" way. I say the same with Motley Crue that my AN system is less grungy sounding clearer and a little more exacting -- but for this kind of music it almost helps it to have a bit of grunge added and it sounds more fun on my Wharfedales which will hit 119db.

Do you mind me asking how much a Dac 1.1 goes for? is it the Dac 1.1X MkII that was released recently -- apparently the new ones don't even have an analog filter.

"I'm surprised you don't have a better digital source."

Tell me about it but there is only so much money. I think I'm doing pretty well for a guy who has not worked since 2000 and has been going to school the whole time. I live frugal to be able to get where I am. I never planned to buy any Gear but I could not pass up the deal on the speakers even though I had to take black. And the amp I had trade ins that could get it affordable enough (I could not trade for a source because the trade in would have left me with no amp). So it's sort of being in the right place at the right time.

Sorry for the length. If you ever do get an opportunity you may be surprised that their speaker amp cd system is anything but a sterotypical tube sound -- it probably won;t have the impact I suspect you love but it won;t sound warm and mushy or veiled I can gaurantee you of that. And apparently each kind of tube design brings different perspectives to the table -- some like AN's 300b some don;t and prefer the 2a3 design while more amazingly some like my OTO's EL 84 over the more expensive 300b Meishu. Some find the Meishu presnets a more organic full bodied sound but it's a little slower on the uptake so it suits small scale intimate music best but not as good on large scale stuff. All of which is part of the fun aspect associated with the tube world. I'm not enough of a gear head to get into that I don't think.

Anyway I'm quite surprised to tell you the truth that the AN would work with the Krell's so well -- though Bob Neil mentioned that the DACs travel across brands better while the amp and speakers are generally suited for each other.

I have a fellow who is willing to sell me his 1.1x MK II because he wants a 2.1 badly.

I NEED A JOB --- LOL

[Mr Peabody]

Go to www.triodeandco.com to see Audio Note pricing. The 1.1x MkII which I have retails at $1,500.00 U.S. I got lucky and found a demo at a good price is the reason I was able to buy that high end on a non-essential purchase. If you could get that one from your friend it would really round your system out.

I could probably do without some of the slam but I'd still need an amp to drive my Dyn's. Some day I might entertain going to separates and using a tube preamp with a SS power amp.

[Florian]

Hey Mr.P

thos tube and SS combination can sound very good. Personally i had a Jolida/Krell combination which worked and sounded very good. Some tube preamps pass DC so you have to watch out for that. My friend here runs A Jadis JP80 into a active crossover and uses the Conrad Johnson Premier 5 Monoblocks on the mid/hi and the Krell KSA250's BE on the bass. Wonderfull combination!

-Flo