Horns get a bad rap...

[Mr Peabody]

Klipsch made some fun and acceptable models but sonically not on par with EV or JBL.

E-stat I wasn't in the hobby in Altec's day but I have to wonder if you've heard the Array series in JBL? The horns used in the JBL Synthesis series are outstanding, very smooth. I wasn't a JBL fan until last year hearing the 1400's and much less expensive LS70's.

In audio there are always trade offs and you have to pick your priority. There is a certain liveliness horns bring to the music that I haven't heard matched by other designs. It brings that rawness, for lack of a better adjective, of a live show to the listening room. Well, exceptions to some extent would be the JBL Array or Klipsch Paladium which have almost tamed that aspect out, giving the horns more of refined delivery.

[E-Stat]

I wasn't in the hobby in Altec's day...

I remember how disappointed I was when I first heard A7s. Hollow midrange, steely top end, with no real low end at all. Far from transparent.

but I have to wonder if you've heard the Array series in JBL?

I have not. I did, however, look them up.

Designed to Impress

What you say about preferences is certainly true. As for me, I prefer speakers that are "designed to disappear". My reference point is using no speaker at all. Here you have yet another two way horn stretching the output of a large (14") woofer to reach a horn. The specs illustrate what I find to be their troubling characteristics: inconsistent directivity and poor driver blending at the crossover. Notice how they describe the response:

"Low Frequency Transducer:600 W AES, 50 Hz to 500 Hz
High Frequency Transducer: 75 W AES, 1kHz to 10kHz"

They may be "lively", but who needs the octave from 500 hz to 1khz anyway?

[Joe Roberts]

Here is a pic of the third best horn system I heard last week.

This is a pair of Western Electric 15A with 555 drivers, covering 80hz to 7khz, WE 597A tweeters, and a mono sub with two EV30W and two Altec 515s, cut in below 70hz.

I was in Korea preparing this rig for Silbatone's exhibit at the Munich High End show. We will have to cut the 15As to fit them through the door at the show.

Do you think Paul Klipsch though K-Horns were the best when he had a collection of Western Electric theater gear?

I don't know what Peter Qvortrup was smoking when he said AN E are better than WE and Klangfilm theater gear. I had AN Es and I gave them away. I have no clue what kind of WE gear he had.

No way those AN boxes compete with a properly set up WE system to my taste, but I don't think it is even fair or reasonable to make the comparison.

AN E are OK box speakers but good horns can obliterate them in terms of emotional impact and musical involvement. And when you get into full range horns like the 15A, add coherence to the list.

My own peak audio experience is with pro gear worked into home applications: Large format Altec, WE, and Lansing field coil. It is a lot of work to get this stuff working right in the home and it is never a turnkey approach.

I can't name a modern high end speaker that replaces the pro stuff for me. Heard Musique Concrete horns for a few minutes at Munich last year. They were pretty good.

Most of the "high end audio" horn offerings are not of the top sonic rank, but, in fairness, none of the pro horns will win any home decorating awards! Home speakers are the art of the compromise for most of us, alas.

[RGA]

Joe

I think you read Peter incorrectly - he noted that his all time favorites are not the AN E and noted this

"The treble and midrange on the Lowthers was one of the best I have ever encountered, and I have owned pretty much everything over the past 35 years, from Voigt's field coil driven horns, Tannoy's original 1950's Westminster's, Siemens Klangfilm and WE cinema systems to B&W DM70s, stacked Quad 57's, Beveridge System 2's, Acoustats, to Hill's Plasmatronics, Heil's full range AMT, Snell A/IIIs you name it, I have at some time or another had them all and what they all has taught me is not insubstantial.

I rate the Lowther PM4 system and the Siemens systems as the best overall, but they are domestically almost impossible unless you live in a mansion, and very few of us do, so something smaller is needed.
Which is why we are here!"

and "I still own a Beveridge System II, ESS Transar, Siemens Klangfilm system, several Snell Type A models and one of two more, and have over the years worked on and modified practically every vintage speaker system made."


But as he notes the best of these are domestically not feasible for the VAST VAST VAST majority of audiophiles - even the Altecs are very large and obtrusive for the normal sized apartment or home - the picture you just posted is illustration of that. The AN E Sec Silver Sig in a 200 square meter room (which is the max size room they recommend for the AN E) is as good as I have heard from anyone ever in such a living room. And I think they do better than most in considerably larger rooms as well. They don't compete in the dynamic ease department (though the new hemp higher efficiency alnico versions help immensely) with big horns - but they also don't have that honkiness that E-Stat notes. And that has been an issue with most every horn speaker that comes out. The best horns that I have heard which includes the one I heard from Silbatone at CES (The Aporia) are still BIG. Here in Hong Kong the two would have to touch each other to fit in the living room. So no matter how good the speaker is the room can't support them. So you look at something else that the room can support.

I have often described the AN E has a between the poles speakers - my favorite speakers have tended to be large horns and Panels (and single drivers) because both poles bring certain things to the table (but at the expense of the other) while the E is a compromise of sorts retaining much of what I like about horns and much of what I like about panels (but not to their degree but also not bringing the weaknesses to the fore) Which is a long way to say they're a superb all-rounder and why I can play any music on them - most rooms at shows I noted had a few recordings - play the same ones all day over and over because apparently they're afraid to play real music - just play what their speaker is good at playing.

Some people only listen to one genre of music in a narrow volume level - if the speaker does that well and that's what you listen to then great - but an all-rounder needs to play it all equally well. And I don't hear that from panels or horns - I heard the steely hardness of horns - but I get presence and a jump factor that no panel I have heard remotely captures - but I also get a holographic sound and staging and imaging and openness that arguably is peerless.


Emotional impact and musical involvement is somewhat subjective. Terms that people reading this discussion who have not heard the products in question will roll their eyes at. The system is also more than the loudspeaker - the AN E I have heard in a number of configuration with a number of amps from Audio Note and not from Audio Note (ditto for sources) and in a number of rooms. And IME they have topped the Emotional and musical involvement charts against their competition. But that goes out the window with some amps - and not just SS but some tube amps as well.

Their competition is not speakers designed for massive rooms however - for that you need speakers like the ones you posted.

But Audio Note tends to get a lot of reactions like the one from Wes Philips - over the course of the years I have read many such over the top reactions - and it is disproportionate to AN. I never read such reactions to say an AvanteGarde or B&W for example (I discount some magazines that I find have track records of lies or crookedness mind you).

But this is pretty over the top praise by one of their leading 3-4 reviewers and basically says there was only ONE system in the entire show that was worth listening to and you don't have to read between the lines to figure that out. Ongaku Means Ecstasy | Stereophile.com

[Joe Roberts]

I think you read Peter incorrectly

That could be...in which case the question becomes "What have I been smoking!"

So are we talking about horns or box speakers here? To me, AN E are punk-out speakers for a horn lover. This is not to say that they are bad box speakers...they are definitely decent. And they work well in tandem with Audio Note gear so you can actually get a matched system out of the box. Audio Note makes reasonable stuff and they are ahead of the industry curve taste-wise in my estimation. But horns can best AN Es in my mind and for my ear.

I maintain that horns can work in medium rooms and I have done it successfully, I had 15 cell Altecs with a big Onken cab in an 18x25 room and it worked great. I still miss that system.

A Siemens/Klangfilm Eurodyn will fit in a medium room and provide much more presence and dynamic range than an AN E.

There are many horn solutions for small to medium rooms. No need to punk-out with silk dome tweeters and all that.

Honkiness is a drawback of BAD horns. Good horns have none of it. Honk disqualifies a horn from serious consideration. Move on.

Same with steely or mechanical overtones...junk it. Good horns are very detailed and natural.

I believe that many problems are caused by running the wrong cone high enough to mate with a small horn (like 1500hz) or putting the crossover smack in the middle of the vocal range in addition to pushing the woofer up beyond its optimal range. The LF is more tricky than the horn midrange in many implementations, especially in smaller-sized systems.

Quotes from famous reviewers don't impress me. Hey, I was a reviewer. I know lots of reviewers. Most of these guys don't have a clue as to the possibilities beyond the high end speaker marketplace. I am not trying to be flippant and harsh, but
most reviewers just don't know the world of vintage and pro horn technologies and topologies or the exotic DIY stuff and if they do they have to hide it for the job.

Some of the best reviewers seem to like all kinds of audio gear well enough to give it a shot. I used to but I can't do it anymore. I am a man of strong preferences and opinions, less so in real life than in print, but life is too short to traffic in inferior audio.

Is is true, at least, that the vast number of speaker products out there today tend to represent a narrow slice of possible technologies. Part of it is the need to have good looking, shippable products that can be sold to normal people. The other side is that success breeds success and copycat design is prevalent.

I will admit that I am totally spoiled by big setups that put all or most of the vocal range in one horn. This is not easy to pull off for a "product" but the alternative is super tricky as regards mating the drivers into a convincing musical whole. Rare is the woofer that will play smooth up to 1500 and hand off seamlessly to a compression midrange.

I think that the place to look for horn solutions is not Stereophile or Hot Springs, AR but DIY forums. Lots of guys are running horns in domestic spaces, good ones, and they are happy as clams.

The snobbish position of the DIY horn crowd is that high end audio is for beginners. The real story is that manufacturers work under constraints that the DIYers have abandoned or rejected. It is not an even playing field. DIY has the upper hand.

There seem to be a number of small manufacturers trying to do things right with horns and I am probably not giving these warriors due credit but that is only because I haven't heard their stuff.

Perhaps high end designers get too artistic with horns. Maybe they have to be industrial ugly to some degree in order to work!

I'll still stand by what I said when I started writing about horns 20+ years ago...most horns are bad horns, but a good one is the best speaker you can get.

Here is a pic of the best horn system heard last week. This is a WE 12A/13A system in Silbatone's new listening room. This is the FIRST generation of cinema speakers, c.1928. Super super rare. Probably worth more than my house, especially now that a dozen rich Korean audio madmen have heard it.

Aside from no bass below 80hz, this system truly sounds like a concert hall. I never heard anything like it. Jaw dropping. Riveting.

No, it is not practical in any way and barely possible to put together, but it has been accomplished.

The useable answer is somewhere between "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" and "Don't settle for a Bose mini system."

I am certain that most listening rooms can accommodate some form of good horn system, but you might not be able to go out and buy it. It will probably take some creativity and work and/or a large pile of cash. You have to be the type that will love the journey of research, exploration, and learning by doing.

Think of something like a Heresy but built with really good parts...then start inching bigger and bigger...and bigger...

[frenchmon]

Sibatone Acoustics Reference 300....Silbatone Acoustics




Made in Korea....and cost 30K

[frenchmon]

When I worked in the industry of commercial heating and cool, some of the heating/cooling blowers looked just like those horns. To me for audio....its a bit over kill. Just my opinion.

[Joe Roberts]

.its a bit over kill. Just my opinion.

More like wretched excess, I would have to admit.

We are totally about overkill. After a certain point, it becomes a real challenge to progress but we can't go backwards now, can we?

Middling efforts yield middling results.

For me and the rest of the Silbatone team, ultra-extremist audio is an intellectual pursuit and a buzz-seeking adventure. How far can we go? What is possible?

I am not sure yet but it sure is fun trying to find out.

We also love to take this rare stuff out to shows and let people hear it, like a traveling museum exhibit.

Personally, I am happy with a lot less for myself, Most of my listening is on a Dell monitor sound bar while sitting at the computer. Hahaha!

Seriously, I can detach music enjoyment from audio almost entirely and enjoy whatever I am hearing unless it causes pain or discomfort. I have come full circle on audiophilia and recognize it for what it is.

I constantly work with systems that are too expensive and too big for me to hope to own, but that's cool. Experience and understanding mean more to me than ownership.

Right now, I am trying to plan and execute a small room horn system around a pair of nicely made mini-Altec 828 cabinets I bought on craigslist. Only 30" high. Take 12" woofs. They were somebody's one-of-a-kind DIY project 40 years ago. Looks like fun!

[RGA]

Of course I agree with you Joe. The High End audio manufacturers are comproimised by the fact that they want to sell products. They are not making one-offs and the business aspect of the thing means you have to appeal to wider audiences. One offs tend to cost a tone of money which people don't have.

I think you need to distinguish between DIY - I have heard a lot of DIY gear versus similarly priced manufactured gear and didn't conclude it to be better. Perhaps because the DIYer isn't really objective because they've put so much of their time and "LOVE" into the build they think it's better than really is. Which is why when I audition it and have no attachment one way or the other I simply listen to the sound. For instance you can DIY with Audio Note by buying their kits - but they don't sound as good as the manufactured products. At least the speakers don't IME.

I do agree though that if you throw enough money at a one off solution you can get superior results but it's not practical for a manufacturer or a dealer.

And without dealers people won't be able to hear them. Buying DIY or kits unheard runs into my previously mentioned bias - person spends big money and lots of time - they will likely "love it" no matter what it sounds like - and with no direct comparison they will deem it a winner.

Certain companies that sell over the internet with free home trials bank on the same thing. The person buys it has it in their home with nothing to compare it to - they'll likely keep it proclaiming it's greatness. Soundhounds, my main dealer, for example bought the MMG speaker - and sells Magnepan - you can listen to the MMG BEFORE you order one. You can compare it to a bunch of other speakers of similar price in direct comparison. I didn't walk away thinking it was best in class - and that's because I had something to compare it with - not a home theater in a box from Wal-Mart.

Anyway - I loved the sound o fhte Aporia you guys brought to CES 2010 - I had it listed in the top 5 best rooms of the show (above $10K) so I do understand where you're coming from - I just wish there was a more practical and affordable sollution - because unfortunately the cheap horns don't really do horns justice.

I heard a giant Altec in South Korea when I taught there and they were quite good. Not Aporia good but good.

[Joe Roberts]

Well that's the whole thing...are manufacturer's goals, pricing, and implementations the same as yours or close enough? If not, some venture into the murky waters of DIY.

Pure sonic performance is not the only satisfaction in audio. For me, nothing is more satisfying than building.

You might prefer manufactured gear to somebody else's DIY project, but as you noticed, they probably don't care what you like better! They are they one who get to listen to it.

That's why I always joke...Who cares what reviewers think? Who will be listening to your system? You or Anthony Cordesman?

With horn speakers, there are significant expenses that would incur to a commercial manufacturer trying to do it right. Good inducement to take the discount of using off the shelf pro parts or used vintage and fire up the saw.

Part of what we are trying to do with Silbatone is point out the limitations that high end takes for granted and give a peek beyond them. Sure, few can actually afford this stuff (including Silbatone's top line electronics) but that doesn't make it less significant as a learning experience.

The correct response to statements such as "Horns are steely" or "Horns sound honky" is "Not all of them, Bud!"

Not the good ones.

At the Munich show, where lots of very exotic manufacturers show up, we bring our benchmark, which happens to be 80 year old Western Electric speakers and let the people listen, learn, and decide.

The audio business is very very difficult. I believe that for certain classes of products, such as premium horn speakers, the able enthusiast is better off bypassing that commercial quagmire and taking matters into his own hands.

Maybe the industry is catching up. I hope so. The interest is certainly there.

[RGA]

Well I agree with you again especially about reviewers - that's why I became one.

Thinking about this a little more I see that some DIY outfits will build the things for you for a fee.

Why doesn't someone resurrect these older designs. I was thinking of what Peter said he loved best - SET those Klangfilms Snell Type A etc. I get the "speakers for a small/med room" but why not have the Type A remake or WE remakes and sell those. Why not attract the people who love the sound but have no interest or ability or time to do the build.

Seems to me like there would be a market (a bigger one than DIY) to get into here. And while some of these speakers are very large - so is the Wilson MAXX 3. The Aporia ate it for breakfast at 2010 CES and they look better to boot. Oh and they cost less.

I guess I don't see why these speakers can't be manufactured and sold - if they were made in numbers the price would come down (economy of scale) and more people could afford them.

The horns/semi-horns I mentioned in my first post don't honk or shout and that illustrates to me the technology is superb. Those three speakers were three of the five in my top 5. I don't recall the price of the Aporia but the RA Box from Trenner and Freidl I think was the least expensive at $25,000.

It gets a little nuts for us commoners. I guess I'd like to see another Peter Q out there to come in and buy the rights to the WE speakers or other fine models and upgrade them wherever they need an upgrade and start selling them.

I think sound trumps looks for most audiophiles - IF they hear something truly great. But it took me living in South Korea or going to CES to hear these things. The average dealer just wants to sell a box with 6 inch woofers in an MDF cabinet and advertise diamonds and Kevlar or white papers.

PS: Even dirt cheap horns occasionally sound pretty good. I have a pair of Horn Wharfedale Vanguard floorstanders - basically an upgraded E-70. This was a mid-fi speaker but I maintained then and I still do that despite it's numerous problems it still had jump factor and an entertaining visceral sensation that was really quite fun to listen to. Compared to numerous $2-$5k so called hi-fi speakers from Paradigm, B&W, Klipsch - my argument was that when you spend more you should get more - and that means more of everything. I never understood why you would have a floorstander at $2000 that was pretty full range and then buy the $2500 standmount that has a better tweeter but no bass or dynamics. You spend and extra $500 - they should simply put the better tweeter into the floorstander - then you get better treble without losing 3 octaves. (But that's a whole other issue).

I think the other thing is that horns are typically high resolvers - and with most sources and amplification SUCKING the speakers tell you in great detail how bad the front end truly is. So in fact maybe some of those cheap horns are a little better than we think.

Anyway if you know of any of these "good" horn designs that would sell at retail under $10,000 let me know and I will try to find something to review.

The only good thing about reviews IMO is to bring lesser known gear to the attention of people buying in the mainstream. The big magazines require dealer networks (In other words you have to be mainstream to get a review).

I have tried to get Horns from very small makers that were very intriguing but the shipping costs to Canada were too much for him ($2000 each way - the speakers fer $2500 - so he is basically a local seller in the Eastern U.S.). The sad thing is the really interesting stuff is tough to find for the average audiophile and it's not that easy for reviewers. Reading John Marks - if a Stereophile writer has trouble getting stuff then I/we have little hope at dagogo.

Fortunately, I am now living in Hong Kong which spreads are review staff out a little more - and the Asian market seems to be a hotbed for off the beaten path gear. I'll try to make a trip over to Mongkok to see what they have.

[Joe Roberts]

You can forget these sensible economic arguments. Yeah they look good on paper but don't work in practice. The audio market is too small and too weird. Run the numbers and an impossible number of sales is usually required to make everything fall into place.

One thing Audio Note knows is that expensive gear sells...in fact, it can be easier to sell than inexpensive gear. These days, people who have to scrape together $3k to buy aren't buying gear, they are buying food. Rich cats ALWAYS have money to spend. This is why most of audio seems dialed in on the 1%. They are the ones who can and do buy.

We sell all the Silbatone we want to make and it is very pricey stuff. We showed our $100,000 C-100 preamp in a store in Seoul for two weeks and sold seven of them, mostly to ex-FM Acoustics users. If we tooled up to make 1000 of them (at massive capital expense) and sold them for $50k, we would have 975 in stock after a year.

Totally senseless world.

Also, for most North American manufacturers, the real market is in Asia. Importers are more interested in high dollar gear with some profit in it, so that is what gets put on the boat. Once they got to Asia, luxury buyers wouldn't be interested because they are "too cheap." Big cheap horn speakers are a worst case product for this export distribution system.

The most viable business strategy is to play the game as it exists, leading to more of what we already have.

Silbatone is not trying to make a profit so we can play with the rules but for most makers it is a life and death struggle with little room for error.

Thank the gods for the small guys who take a chance, probably not entirely realizing what they are up against. That's where most of the interesting stuff happens and where most of the gear built with love originates.

The most encouraging point I can make is that fancy mainstream "magazine" audio is a shrinking fraction of what is going on out there. DIY and cottage industry is where the real action is, not to mention the FUN!

Most of the folks I hang out with haven't read an audio magazine in ten years or more...

[Poultrygeist]

If my wife will give me the F.R.O.G. I'm building these suckers!

Dipole Fostex Front Horn - YouTube

[Ajani]

If my wife will give me the F.R.O.G. I'm building these suckers!

Dipole Fostex Front Horn - YouTube

Those look kind of cool.

[Joe Roberts]

Admin deleted my posts, so I'm outta here.

Have fun, y'all.

Joe

[RGA]

Seriously - deleting the ENTIRE post - just delete the links or tell the person to edit their post. That's ridiculous.

[Joe Roberts]

RGA, tell the mods. I couldn't agree more.

I put a link in my sig so people would know I am professionally engaged in audio, not to promote my products.

Many forums have a means to note if a poster is in the business, which is good to know.

Nobody around here is going to buy any Silbatone products, after all.

The posts were on-topic informational, not sales-oriented, and I think they contained some useful food for thought.

A total waste of my time and energy.

Joe

[tube fan]

I thought the $80,000 Acapella horn was excellent, but no match for my decades old Fulton Js. The $15,000 Teresonic speaker was a match for my Fultons at moderate volume.

[RGA]

Did you hear the speakers in direct comparison with the same electronics in the samesimilar room at the same volume level?

Yes you've said that about everything you've heard - nothing is as good as the Fulton J we get it but no one today can realistically go out and buy a set or audition a set to verify the claim.

There is unfortunately a practical aspect to consider. Joe Roberts was also talking about gear that very few people can get their hands on. I have heard a number of vintage products and I do agree that some of them compete quite well with current models - there are still people who claim the Quad 57 is still the best sounding model (for a panel).

Is this what you're talking about? I just don't see how the pictured speakers below will integrate seamlessly from bass to treble to the degree of a single driver Lowther / Teresonic. If it can beat every product going to today - I am surprised no one is making them - someone should start.

Edit: I did some reading on Robert Fulton and I liked the fact that he was one of the early people to realize the pitfalls of feedback in an audio system. The company stopped in 2006 - Is he still in the audio business?

[JohnMichael]

Seriously - deleting the ENTIRE post - just delete the links or tell the person to edit their post. That's ridiculous.

I had asked him to delete the link which was part of his signature. Since the last upgrade we are unable to edit signatures so an admin will need to do it.

[E-Stat]

I did some reading on Robert Fulton and I liked the fact that he was one of the early people to realize the pitfalls of feedback in an audio system. The company stopped in 2006 - Is he still in the audio business?

He was quite a character. HP tells a story of when Bob drove from Minnesohta to Sea Cliff to deliver some stuff for review. Harry was using Fulton Gold speaker cables with the IRS circa 1980.

I think Fulton is no longer with us.

[RGA]

RGA, tell the mods. I couldn't agree more.

I put a link in my sig so people would know I am professionally engaged in audio, not to promote my products.

Many forums have a means to note if a poster is in the business, which is good to know.

Nobody around here is going to buy any Silbatone products, after all.

The posts were on-topic informational, not sales-oriented, and I think they contained some useful food for thought.

A total waste of my time and energy.

Joe

Yes AudioAsylum has an M for manufacturer - R for reviewer etc.

I think it's important to have the distinction listed so forumers know what advice they're getting and from whom.

But you know "Rules" they rarely look at things case by case. Although this rule seems odd becase you'd think audio forums would WANT manufacturers posting information on boards with different perspectives - so long as they're not advertising. Perhaps the issue is with the hyperlink but even then a person can spend all of 5 seconds to type in Silbatone on google and get to the same place anyway.

I found your posts to be quite excellent - so chalk it up to a system issue.

[E-Stat]

Yes AudioAsylum has an M for manufacturer - R for reviewer etc.

My favorite sig is from Duke (M) over there (from whom I purchased my U1s):

"Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too."

He's an open minded and super nice guy. He's one of many who like both horns and stats.

[RGA]

Duke is the guy I tried to have send me one of his speakers - but the shipping costs were stupid. His Rythm Prism looked interesting to me at what appeared to be an affordable price

[RGA]

Hey Tube Fan

the Audio Note attack thread on the General forum had me look over Peter's threads on AA and I found a small tidbit on Fulton being one of Peter's inspirations. Which may explain why you enjoyed the AN sound. Now I want to audition the Fulton's even more because I suspect due to the modular approach (which is similar to the Snell Type A) that it would be quite interesting.

"I know this short piece in no way goes into nearly enough depth, but I hope at least gives some idea, and lastly I would like to offer my gratitude to some of the people who have inspired me to follow this path, Donald Chave, the founder of Lowther, (with Paul A. G. H. Voigt and Peter Lowther, neither of whom I sadly ever met), Peter Snell and Kondo-san primarily, but also Bob Fulton, Guy Adams of Voyd, Peter Dunlop of Systemdek and many others too numerous to mention whose ideas and designs have inspired what I do." Still Wondering? - Peter Qvortrup - General Asylum