Help me position my Vienna Acoustic Mozart Grands

[Brett A]

Hi all.

I just become the very happy owner of a pair if Vienna Acoustic Mozart grand speakers (pre- “SE”). I am really loving their sound after several pretty contented years with a set of B&W 683s.

It’s only day 3 so I am still looking for their sweet spots. I am having similar experiences as some of the reviewers; too close together and they sound a bit “phasy” as one reviewer put it; meaning similar to out of phase. Spreading them farther apart cleared that up.

By putting them pretty far apart and toeing them in moderately, I’ve been able to get Joni Mitchell’s voice (for instance) nicely centered and forward into the room with good timbre and presence. However, the accompanying instruments are still rather smeared behind her.

I haven’t been able to tune the focus in beyond this point; you know, like how binoculars must be dialed in to give a clear image.

Everything I’ve read assures me that these speakers are capable of very good-to-excellent imaging (my associated equipment is capable as well). I’ll keep moving them around with blue tape and tape measure in hand. I just thought I’d put it out there in case someone can save me some time.

I now have them about 18" further apart than in these pictures. BTW.

[Hyfi]

Hey Brett, congrats and nice setup. They appear pretty far apart if your chair is not the same distance back. Possible reflection on the left wall (cd side - possible room treatments.). The other thing possibly effecting things are the 2 windows which can suck bass away. Are they rear ported? I also use a little laser level to make sure they are tilted so that the tweeter is not directed too far above or below the ear height.

Again, real nice looking and good luck dialing them in.

[Brett A]

Hey Brett, congrats and nice setup. They appear pretty far apart if your chair is not the same distance back. Possible reflection on the left wall (cd side - possible room treatments.). The other thing possibly effecting things are the 2 windows which can suck bass away. Are they rear ported? I also use a little laser level to make sure they are tilted so that the tweeter is not directed too far above or below the ear height.

Again, real nice looking and good luck dialing them in.

Thanks for the kind words.

The listening position is further away than the distance between the speakers. The speakers are 8' - 9' apart while the couch is about 11' back.

Yes, they are ported on the rear. And the bass response is very nice; much deeper and stronger than the B&W's they replaced.

I've played with the windows open/closed/cellular blinds down and that does have some subtle affect.

I plan on picking up a couple laser pointers tonight. So far I'm just using a bubble level on the speaker cab and sighting.

[Hyfi]

put a pc of cardboard behind your seat sticking up and mark the ear level. Then measure front the top of the speaker to center of tweeter and place a mark that far up from your ear mark. Then position the laser square on top of the speaker and toe in and tilt as needed. Get the tilt dialed in first then play with toe in or out. I use that as a starting position then play from there.

[Brett A]

put a pc of cardboard behind your seat sticking up and mark the ear level. Then measure front the top of the speaker to center of tweeter and place a mark that far up from your ear mark. Then position the laser square on top of the speaker and toe in and tilt as needed. Get the tilt dialed in first then play with toe in or out. I use that as a starting position then play from there.

Awesome! Thanks.

[JohnMichael]

Very nice room and I would love to hear those speakers. My first concern is the front of the speakers look like they are flush with the front of your racks. I think the speakers should be at least a foot in front of the rack. Early reflections can interfere with imaging.

When I finally found the sweet spot for my Monitor Audio RS6's I did it by bringing the speakers closer together. Once I had them close I faced them forward with no toe-in. As I listened I moved both speakers a couple of inches from the centerline. I did this until I had good centerfill, soundstaging and imaging.

Good luck and I hope you find the sweet spot soon.

[bobsticks]

For whatever reason I can't see the attached images so I can't really offer an opinion on the setup but I did want to offer congrats on the new speakers. I hope they'll let you get the best out of your tunes!

[frenchmon]

Hi Brett. Once again as I said over at Audiokarma, those babies are some lookers. I love eye candy!

I took the liberty of reading a few reviews and read those are some fussy speakers. One review said he had an extreme toe in. Sounds like they don't have wide sound dispersion. Usually speakers with a decent to very good dispersion affords you to face them forward without toe in. I have not heard that particular speaker, but have heard the Bach Grand and the Hyden Grand. I never noticed a dispersion problem but a small mid range problem. But I thought it was related to the amp and not the speakers. So what is the dispersion like with the grands in comparison to the B&W's?

My speakers, because of the wide dispersion, recommends no toe it at all. In your case of toe in or no, I would do as JM suggested. Its hard work, but if you start them close together and then seperate them, sound may open up and sweet spot may develop.

Brett, I do remember reading on your thread over at Audiokarma some time ago about you having your audio rack with all the gear far away from the back wall so as you can walk behind it to easily get to your cabling. Is it possible that reflections may be getting trapped behind it? If so, is there any way you can push it back to the wall or block the sides as to absorb the reflections? If you can push it back closer to the wall the speakers maybe more forward to you. And what is the sound like without the grills? Brett can you show your sitting position?

[LeRoy]

Very nice pic of your audio room! Well, simply from observation of how you have your speakers placed and your listening position of 11 feet....as a starting point I would move each speaker about 1.5 inches closer toward the audio rack, followed by a toe-in of about .50 inch and listen for any changes then adjust accordingly. Also, I would probably move each speaker closer to the back wall by .5 inch as well. But like I said...simply from observing the pic that's what I would begin with.

Good luck with all the maneuvers.

[Brett A]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I've had some time to futz with them this morning and found closer together than in the picture and straight ahead is sounding pretty good (but not there yet).

I started with the 70/30 rule per a suggestion and have ended up with the speakers slightly further apart than that (8'2" as opposed to 7'8")

When I have more time, I plan on moving the rack back toward the wall so it is recessed from the plane of the speaker baffles by as much as I can get it. This is a big job as it requires tearing it all down.

I'll check back with more updates later.

Thanks again.

[frenchmon]

Cool...let us know. IF your speakers are facing forward and sounding good, that tells me they have very good dispersion... . Its the high frequencies that are directional not the low frequencies.

Another thing. When I am moving my audio rack around and don't want to tear it all down, I use those sliders under the fee of the rack and slide it. Makes it a lot easier and faster.

[Patrick Butler]

Hi Brett,

Thank you for purchasing Vienna Acoustics!

Looks like you have a good start to your setup. Here are a few tips that I can offer:

1. Use more toe in. The tweeters need not be pointed directly at your head, but you should be able to see only about 1/3 of the inside of the cabinet from your listening position. To put it another way, the tweeters should cross about 3 feet behind your head. The exact amount needed will differ for every setup.
2. Either bring the speakers out further from the rear wall, or push the equipment rack back a bit. Low end extension and linearity may suffer if you bring the speakers further out (or push the rack back), or it may improve. Every room is different.
3. Initially have the speakers plum and level. After getting a basic setup nailed, you will need to rake (angle) the speakers back for best performance. This listening axis is mid way between the tweeter and the mid-bass driver. By unscrewing just the front spikes a little at a time, you will move the focal point up to your listening position. The sound will be clearer and warmer, with a taller and more natural soundstage. Low bass will also improve with better definition and lower extension.
4. Take the grills off. They will sound quite a bit better.

Best wishes,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America

[Brett A]

Hi Brett,

Thank you for purchasing Vienna Acoustics!

Looks like you have a good start to your setup. Here are a few tips that I can offer:

(....)

Best wishes,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America

Thanks Patrick! Amazing to get advice from the source!

So to update, I've done two very important things to improve the situation. I've cleared much of the stuff between the speakers (see pic), and more importantly, deduced that the two mid/bass drivers in one speaker were connected out-of-phase!!!

I ran the phasing track on Stereophile's Tet CD#2 and found them to sound more correct if I reversed polarity of one speaker.

I knew the person I bought them from (private sale) had replaced both tweeters, so I pulled them and found them to be hooked up OK.

While doing this, I noticed that the wires running behind both (transparent) cones in one cabinet were wrongly oriented. So I puled these and found them wired backward with the white cable hooked up to the POS+ and the colored to GND-. I simply corrected this and reinstalled them.

I couldn't rest though without confirming that all drivers on both cabs were properly hooked up; they are now.

Not sure what kind of sordid past these have, but I sure am glad to have them in my set up. They sound gorgeous!

ALL THAT SAID, I am still working to find their proper placements.

But now that I have the room de-cluttered and all the drivers working in unison, I'm well on my way!

I will take your advice, Patrick and also work with the Stereophile CD and tips from other articles.

I'll keep ya'll posted!

(please forgive the foggy cell phone picture)

[frenchmon]

Glad you caught the speaker mistake. The tweeters....are they replaced with after market top shelf or Genuine Vienna Acoustics?

[Brett A]

Glad you caught the speaker mistake. The tweeters....are they replaced with after market top shelf or Genuine Vienna Acoustics?

The new tweeters (both of them) were bought directly from Vienna Acoustics. The magnets are labeled Mozart Grand. The gentleman I bought them from works at a VA retailer. I probably would have passed on them if they did not have the correct tweeters.

[arrjmai]

try super tweeters with Vienna mozart.

[Quazimoto]

I don't know much but I find soundstage to a) be the most pleasing part of good speakers - the detail is also nice but honestly I'd prefer a $500 set of speakers placed well to make good soundstage with bad detail, than sitting next to the left speaker of a pair of $10,000 speakers - where you can hear the detail but no stage. b) I find I prefer to sit "inside the triangle" - as in, if you and the 2 speakers are supposed to make an equilateral triangle with the speakers, I sit there at the point - and then a foot or two in. This might be "audiophile sacrilege" but I just normally prefer the wide stage you get by doing that.
So I'd just fiddle until you're happy.