The Great Speaker decision Is NOW within reach.

[Florian]

Do not, under any circumstances try to read. It could result in knowledge, which in the wrong hands is dangerous.

I am rolling on the floor laughing. That is so funny

[kenk]

I've already set the system up and want to invite others to explore the Bose name. They have an entire display at Best Buy and Circuit City too. The new home theater syetm Bose speakers are the ones I bought.

peace out dog........

I did explore Bose fifeen years ago(i think), we tried out two pairs, the 301 (i think) and the very first acoustimass spakers ($600 back then). Well the acoustimass woofers caught on fire when we cranked up the volume (real story) and the 301 just sounded bad in my room. Bottom line, no more Bose after that.

[SlumpBuster]

By the way, I do really have a Bose system in my car, and I really do like it. But I can also tell that it's not the ultimate in sound. It's good. But that's it. My Infinity's sound much better, and they are only "good."

You're right. I had an Audi A6 with the Bose/Navigation system. It was very nice. Certainly the best factory system I've ever had. But, I know some car company recently started putting Mark Levinson products in, and I think Chyrsler is using Boston Acoustics. I haven't heard those. But the Bose car systems do seem to be a different animal from their home audio counterparts.

[topspeed]

You're right. I had an Audi A6 with the Bose/Navigation system. It was very nice. Certainly the best factory system I've ever had. But, I know some car company recently started putting Mark Levinson products in, and I think Chyrsler is using Boston Acoustics. I haven't heard those. But the Bose car systems do seem to be a different animal from their home audio counterparts.

Our cars are whole different animals and come with an entirely different set of expectations. Wind roar, tire noise, and exhaust thrum combined with hellish acoustics all conspire to make the interior of a car one of the most difficult places to achieve good sound. My wife has a Bose system in her SUV and it sounds pretty good...for an OEM system. It has decent, if boomy, bass but still lacks clarity in the upper mids and treble. You know, typical Bose. Honestly, the Infinity Gold system I had in my Jeep GC back in the '90's killed it. That said, both are still worlds better than the travesty of a stereo BMW somehow deemed worthy for my current car. It is, in a word, sh!t.

Lexus has offered ML systems in their cars from the brand's inception in the early '90's. I've heard it in the LS430, SC430, and the latest GS430 (I have a lot of friends into Lexus). It's quite good, although every one seems tipped a bit hot to me. Odd, considering Lexus' rep for coffin quiet interiors. Volvo offers Dynaudio systems which are superb and Aston Martin now has Linn systems for a mere $4750(!) upgrade. To date, the best OEM car system I've heard is the ESL/Panny DVD-A system in the Acura TL. To me, it has the best balance combined with the most cohesive presentation. To this day I can't understand why they have the ESL in the TL yet put a Bose in the flagship RL .

One last thing, while I despise DSP in home audio, it is almost mandatory to correctly deal with the wacko acoustics inside a car.

[MrClean]

One last thing, while I despise DSP in home audio, it is almost mandatory to correctly deal with the wacko acoustics inside a car.

You need to hear the new NHT Xd system, with an open mind, before you categorically dismiss prudent use of DSP. These are amazing speakers...

J

[Florian]

Digital room correction can improve the sound in a home audio system. But DSP can not make a bad speaker sound good. Some speakers are very difficult to work with and correct dips, but you can squeeze some good sound out of them. I had a Digital Room Correction device myself from Tact Audio.

-Flo

[MrClean]

Hi Flo,

DSP can probably improve a bad design, but it can really optimize an already excellent design when used with discretion. There are some things that just cannot be achieved with conventional means.

However, DSP is just one component of the Xds. Probably most importantly is the digital filtering, which eliminates the conventional crossover network. NHT was able to choose drivers with extremely low distortion over very specific portions of the audio spectrum, because with steep digital "brick wall" filtering, they can control precisely what goes to each driver. And each driver gets its own 150 watt amp (except for the sub - each of its drivers get 250). They have been able to virtually eliminate all lobing, producing a huge, stable and precise stereo image that does not collapse "off axis".

In the future, NHT will make available user-accessible room correction (the microphone input is already on the back of the processor) wherein each owner can optimize the output for their specific room. They already sound phenomenal, but this should make them even better.

If you can get a chance, I encourage you to listen to the NHTs. They are in very short supply right now, so finding a pair to hear may be difficult, but definitely worth the effort.

http://forum.adnm.com/viewtopic.php?t=381

J

[Florian]

Well TactAudio supplys equipment which can do the same also. What i might give a try is this

1. Tact CD-Drive with Digital AES-B out
2. Tact Digital Preamp and Room Correction
3. Tact Digitial Active Crossover
4. 6x Tact Digital Stereo AMPS

So the signal stays digital all the way to the speaker with no x-over or AD conversion at all. I will test it on the DIVA sinc that speaker can show the weakness and strength of all equipment. The NHT's look interesting, but i am a die hard ribbon and dipole freak with a love for size so i am sure i would not consider them in my main system. But they look very interesting and i will try to give them a listen.

My next step is i a digital active crossover on the DIVAS with a powerfull tube on the mid high ribbons and my big Sphinx SS amp on the bass. For 5500$ they are quite affordable too. Might be interesting to replace the VMPS speakers with, maybe they have a dealer for them in germany.

-Flo

[MrClean]

Well TactAudio supplys equipment which can do the same also. What i might give a try is this

1. Tact CD-Drive with Digital AES-B out
2. Tact Digital Preamp and Room Correction
3. Tact Digitial Active Crossover
4. 6x Tact Digital Stereo AMPS

So the signal stays digital all the way to the speaker with no x-over or AD conversion at all. I will test it on the DIVA sinc that speaker can show the weakness and strength of all equipment. The NHT's look interesting, but i am a die hard ribbon and dipole freak with a love for size so i am sure i would not consider them in my main system. But they look very interesting and i will try to give them a listen.

My next step is i a digital active crossover on the DIVAS with a powerfull tube on the mid high ribbons and my big Sphinx SS amp on the bass. For 5500$ they are quite affordable too. Might be interesting to replace the VMPS speakers with, maybe they have a dealer for them in germany.

-Flo

Sounds like you're on to something there... As long as you can tailor the signal going to each driver to optimize its potential and avoid all the crap it would have to go through in an ordinary crossover, you should hear dramatic results.

I actually sold my dipoles (Genesis V) and a Pass Labs amp to get into this setup, and I don't miss them a bit. Granted, the reason I did so was because they sounded pretty bad in the new house, but regardless, I'm glad I did it.

J

[Florian]

Yeah it is no problem for me to drive each driver actively, Apogee designed the Dax3 and Dax3 for that many years ago. Or i can use the new digital active crossovers in the Lyngdorf Audio and TactAudio's.

You need a large room for the small Genesis V with plenty of power biamping them which can be a hassle. Which version of the V did you have?

-Flo

[MrClean]

Yeah it is no problem for me to drive each driver actively, Apogee designed the Dax3 and Dax3 for that many years ago. Or i can use the new digital active crossovers in the Lyngdorf Audio and TactAudio's.

You need a large room for the small Genesis V with plenty of power biamping them which can be a hassle. Which version of the V did you have?

-Flo

I wasn't aware there were different versions of the V. Not the 500/501, but the one with four woofers per side, the domed midrange, and the outboard bass amp. I had plenty of power going into them (near 900 watts/side), so that was not the problem.

The room is only about 13' wide, with 8' ceilings. On top of that, I had to combine the stereo/HT setup, so there was an armoire that housed the TV and other stuff right smack between the Vs, a huge no-no for dipoles. Not to say that the Xds only sound good in small rooms, as I auditioned them in a room about 4-5X the size of mine and they sounded BIG.

J

[Florian]

The room was too small for the Gens. Why did you not drive them actively?
You could have bought a Tact Audio RCS 2.2x and or the big 10 channel monster and drive each driver actively with a complete room correction There were different versions of the V which differentiated in driver material and amps. The midrange drivers are still avaliable through Genesis since they didnt employ the Emits or Emims from the early Infinity days which Arnie Noodle uses on the IRS series and later used in the early.

-Flo

PS: How much did you let them go for?

To all other members you can all drive your speakers actively. Simply ditch the internal x-over and buy a external digital crossover and 1 or 2 more stereo amps. You can enjoy direct driver controll and bypass all the crap usually found in the x-overs. Also you can use room correction and have the flexibility to add and switch amps and ajust the level of integration!

[thekid]

Flo- I think it is the troll that is on the floor laughing. Everything in his original post was designed to get a reaction. (Bose-Best Buy salespeople-spelling errors)
Not as a defense of Bose but your statement " In some cases, Bose's patents are small refinements of long-established techniques" is intended to be a put down of Bose but really shows an ignorance of the history of technology. Most inventions are small refinements of long established techniques- they just apply the technology in a different way. Computers can actually trace their beginnings back to weaving looms! If as you say a company wants to build a marketing campaign around their "patented" technology they have a right to do so. In fact many companies do, but keep in mind it is not the company that determines when/if something gets a new patent-It is the Patent Office.The consumer is the ultimate judge of technology in the market place and while Ad campaigns can confuse the issue, in the long run they can not make up for a products shortcomings.

[Florian]

Don't worry i don't like BOSE one bit
I was trying to remain neutral and instead of bashing the living hell out of it, i was trying to show a different side. I am currently in the process of learning and accepting that some people have different opinions

-Flo

PS: Where is daddy anyways?

PPS: I was actually a hated customer at the Katey Mills Mall in Houston Texas (BOSE store )because i always i asked questions after the show that made BOSE look like the crap it is!

[thekid]

"I am currently in the process of learning and accepting that some people have different opinions"

IMO that last quote is what more people should take to heart. In my short time in this forum I have realized that it almost all comes down to personal preference. Too often in todays world personal opinion is portrayed as facts and that is where we get in to trouble.

Brand loyalty is what the manufacturers covet but the reality is we consumers should may be using it as a starting point and not a starting and ending point. I own Bose and I can not defend the statements that started this thread. I like what I have and hopefully when time/budget and other factors allow I will be able to get a chance to look at and buy other equipment.Everyone just needs to keep an open mind about their equipment and the equipment of others.

[Florian]

Thats true, and one of the reasons why i simply do not want any other speaker that i own right now, exept the 108000$ Perigee Definitve. I do not know of any other speaker that i like more, and test or no tests (even though the test always ends up extremely good) you need to decide it for yourself.

-Flo

[MrClean]

The room was too small for the Gens. Why did you not drive them actively?
You could have bought a Tact Audio RCS 2.2x and or the big 10 channel monster and drive each driver actively with a complete room correction There were different versions of the V which differentiated in driver material and amps. The midrange drivers are still avaliable through Genesis since they didnt employ the Emits or Emims from the early Infinity days which Arnie Noodle uses on the IRS series and later used in the early.

-Flo

PS: How much did you let them go for?

To all other members you can all drive your speakers actively. Simply ditch the internal x-over and buy a external digital crossover and 1 or 2 more stereo amps. You can enjoy direct driver controll and bypass all the crap usually found in the x-overs. Also you can use room correction and have the flexibility to add and switch amps and ajust the level of integration!

Yes, the room was way too small for the Gens. Going active would not have helped... Instead, I sold them for $3600, the G750 center for $450, the Pass X250 for $2600, the Wireworld cables for $200. Bought the Xds for $5000 (demo) and had enough money to get the wife something nice to smooth things over, if you know what I mean.

NHT really did their homework on this one. The very small size of the satellites enabled them to build a very rigid enclosure - minimum baffle, high density, etc. Housing the sub in its own separate enclosure solved a LOT of problems, including isolating its effects on the mid and tweet, and allowing optimum placement. The two drivers are mounted in opposition with a force canceling rod in between, so there is no vibration at all. The use of class D amps does have its advantages (that was a hard one for me...), most of all is size, and heat - the flexibility to put it where an ordinary class A or AB amp could not go. Also, since the components are not subject to the same extremes in temperature fluctuation, they should last considerably longer than their A and AB cousins.

Lastly, unless you know what you're doing, you could screw the pooch doing it yourself. I will assume that you do in fact know how to do it (go active). I will also hazard a guess that your setup costs a tad over the $5000 I spent for the satellites, stands, sub, DEQX/DSP amp and cabling. I am very well aware of the sound of the Divas in their normal configuration, and I have to say I prefer the Xds. However, applying the same technology found in the Xds to your Divas would no doubt have the potential to at least level the field if not outright beat them. Undoubtedly, other manufacturers will in fact do just that in the future. For the time being, though, these sound as good as or better than anything I have heard at any price.

J

[Florian]

Well i don't know your DIVA experience. Mine are the DIVA Reference which is the latest german edition with precision ribbons from Graz and new Ceramic magnets which increases the field strength and control over the ribbons. I am sure the NHT's sound very nice and i know what small sattelites do and what a combination with a subwoofer can do. Also i know the use of room correction and the active configuration and personally i wouldnt put them anywhere near the DIVA or the Genesis V. The reason for this simple and depends hugely on taste. The regular cone drivers employed in your NHT's are simply not to my liking, this is not only NHT drivers, but also all the drivers from B&W, Dynaudio, Infinity etc.. The are too colored for my taste and simply too slow. They have to fake the dispersion and will not keep a stable image size and correct size of instruments across the field. This problem is also evident in the Soundlabs and ML's with the curved panels. Also the biggest problem is that even with digital eq you miss the radiating size and surface area to display a piano in a room or to display a full size orchestra. Driver speed is also a big IF if you compare them to pure no kapton backed ribbons. I can always hear box coloration and the chassy itself, in all speakers.

I am sure the NHT's are great but with respect diasagree with the statment of revolutionary, best of etc... The technology has been around for a long time, and is used by NewFormResearch, Tact, Lyngdorf, Infinity (partially). The soundfield they are projecting is simply too small on all speakers i know, the different driver materials just doesnt allow for a perfect integration and same color across all frequencys.

Now lets please not start this into a VS. thread, i am very happy that you found a speaker system you like and i am sure that it is very practical. Esp. from the standpoint of the size and requirements, but its not for me and i would personally have kept the Gen's and build the room for them. Later on driven them actively with room correction.

But thats just me. Have fun with them, and i am sure your wife likes them more.

-Flo

PS: Just as a addon, i think its wonderfull that a manufacturer has finally put it all in a nice package but i am not the type of person who jumpes on the first bandwaggon.

[MrClean]

Well i don't know your DIVA experience. Mine are the DIVA Reference which is the latest german edition with precision ribbons from Graz and new Ceramic magnets which increases the field strength and control over the ribbons. I am sure the NHT's sound very nice and i know what small sattelites do and what a combination with a subwoofer can do. Also i know the use of room correction and the active configuration and personally i wouldnt put them anywhere near the DIVA or the Genesis V. The reason for this simple and depends hugely on taste. The regular cone drivers employed in your NHT's are simply not to my liking, this is not only NHT drivers, but also all the drivers from B&W, Dynaudio, Infinity etc.. The are too colored for my taste and simply too slow. They have to fake the dispersion and will not keep a stable image size and correct size of instruments across the field. This problem is also evident in the Soundlabs and ML's with the curved panels. Also the biggest problem is that even with digital eq you miss the radiating size and surface area to display a piano in a room or to display a full size orchestra. Driver speed is also a big IF if you compare them to pure no kapton backed ribbons. I can always hear box coloration and the chassy itself, in all speakers.

I am sure the NHT's are great but with respect diasagree with the statment of revolutionary, best of etc... The technology has been around for a long time, and is used by NewFormResearch, Tact, Lyngdorf, Infinity (partially). The soundfield they are projecting is simply too small on all speakers i know, the different driver materials just doesnt allow for a perfect integration and same color across all frequencys.

Now lets please not start this into a VS. thread, i am very happy that you found a speaker system you like and i am sure that it is very practical. Esp. from the standpoint of the size and requirements, but its not for me and i would personally have kept the Gen's and build the room for them. Later on driven them actively with room correction.

But thats just me. Have fun with them, and i am sure your wife likes them more.

-Flo

PS: Just as a addon, i think its wonderfull that a manufacturer has finally put it all in a nice package but i am not the type of person who jumpes on the first bandwaggon.

And you have decided all of this before you have even listened to them? These do not sound anything like conventional small satellites/sub...

I get to hear the "Absolute Sound" every day at work. My ears are good. *Very* good. I like what I'm hearing. Besides, spending tens of thousands of dollars to build a room to house my old Gens, + the cost of going active, etc., simply is not anywhere near practical for something that still will not deliver the "real thing". It would be cheaper in the long run to do what I did - buy a nice instrument, go to a great music school or two, win a job in a major orchestra, and get paid to hear it every day.

[Florian]

Our goals are different, and thats fine. The reason why i can decide upfront is because i know the technology behind it and i know that a non dipole, sub/sat system with ordanary drivers that is driven actively with room correction is not for my taste. NHT is not the first at all, my friend from Lyngdorf Audio in Stuttgart has the small Dalis driven actively with room corrections. Its exactly the same thing as your NHT's exept for the DALI drivers. And i simply would never buy it over the DIVA or Genesis V. Even the reporters of the show said that it sonds large for a small system but not large. The surface area, the drivers, the integration, tonal coloration etc.. are all things i want and if the system wont deliver it then i simply wont ever buy it, no matter how cute. I do not come from a practical point of view. I think its great that you like them tough, but there is no technological whow factor there and i can do the same with my DIVAS quite cheeply but going active and eqing it to flat does not make it sound good. Many people on this forum do not want a flat sound, i know i dont. I had it here, and it wasnt for my taste..

-Flo

[John Ashman]

Hi Florian,
I see you have other haunts I think MrClean has done a pretty good job of explaining Xd to you, but you do seem to have some misconceptions that I'd like to clear up if you don't mind. It's not unusual, since the technology in this is pretty futuristic. As you say, your tastes are different, so no matter what, you may not like these speakers and I'm not going to convince you that you should. They have a different "take" on the music as compared to ribbon dipoles, so they will sound different. But they also sound different from conventional speakers as well.

But DSP can not make a bad speaker sound good.

This is true, but Xd was engineered from the beginning, 5 years of design, to not only be a great speaker design, but to perform only with DEQX processing. All the right aspects are in place for maximum performance from this acoustic/electronic combination. Low diffraction, low cabinet resonance, small baffle, high level drivers.

1. Tact CD-Drive with Digital AES-B out
2. Tact Digital Preamp and Room Correction
3. Tact Digitial Active Crossover
4. 6x Tact Digital Stereo AMPS

Obviously you can take any good idea to the extreme, but while the Tact can do somethings better than DEQX, it doesn't do other things as well, mainly in the crossover/correction/room EQ, where DEQX is clearly leading the pack in correction technology. At best, it would be a tie, but even that isn't terribly likely. But the Tact system would costs 10s of $thousands. You could buy one or two *more* Xds just for the add on technologies you're mentioning. You could do the very same thing with DEQX and keep it all digital, but, as in the Tact, it runs the cost up to double or triple the cost of allowing a 24/96 AD/DA conversion which are essentially transparent these days.

The regular cone drivers employed in your NHT's are simply not to my liking, this is not only NHT drivers, but also all the drivers from B&W, Dynaudio, Infinity etc.. The are too colored for my taste and simply too slow.

It sounds like you're saying cones are too colored and slow. However, that's the point of DSP. First, it allows a designer to choose a "quick" driver that would be flawed in an analog environment and also take any FR colorations and correct for them. You are also misusing the word "slow". If a driver can reproduce a signal at the require output, then it is not slow, even though it may *seem* slow. The "slow" has to do with transient response (something sealed drivers do well), the rigidity of the driver (the more rigid, the less "slow" the sound seems) and the "stored energy" within the driver (aka ringing, breakup, etc - this is something that is dealt with by the 110dB/octave crossover). I have never heard anyone refer to the SEAS Excel magnesium midrange as "slow" before, you're the first! In any case, "slow" is really distortion, and the Excel driver is *very* good in these areas. No one has called the Xd system "slow" to the best of my knowledge. In fact, it is almost always referred to as "fast" which is another misuse of the word, but you get the idea.

They have to fake the dispersion and will not keep a stable image size and correct size of instruments across the field. This problem is also evident in the Soundlabs and ML's with the curved panels. Also the biggest problem is that even with digital eq you miss the radiating size and surface area to display a piano in a room or to display a full size orchestra. Driver speed is also a big IF if you compare them to pure no kapton backed ribbons. I can always hear box coloration and the chassy itself, in all speakers.

This is highly arguable. The Xd is definitely not faking dispersion. In fact, you could say that a dipole or bipole is "faking" dispersion by bouncing the sound off of the back wall. Xd simply has a different dispersion and avoids the lack of dispersion of analog designs. It takes advantage of the steep crossovers to eliminate all lower treble energy from the midrange driver that would harm the dispersion. Therefore, the system has huge advantages over analog designs and have a sense of "space" and "air" that is more similar to, but not the same as, a bipole or dipole speaker. Further, the very steep crossover between the tweeter and midrange along with the small cabinet and close spacing yields a near perfect approximation of a theoretical "point source" design. The two drivers act as almost one "super driver" that doesn't exist in real life.

I am sure the NHT's are great but with respect diasagree with the statment of revolutionary, best of etc... The technology has been around for a long time, and is used by NewFormResearch, Tact, Lyngdorf, Infinity (partially). The soundfield they are projecting is simply too small on all speakers i know, the different driver materials just doesnt allow for a perfect integration and same color across all frequencys.

This is not really true either. Very primitive versions of this technology has been around, but not nearly to this level. It's like comparing Sony's SXRD to older LCD designs. It's the power of the processor that creates the evolutionary leap beyond previous systems. Xd's performance could be duplicated or even surpassed, but it would require copying most of its design and spending much more money, at least for now. What is "revolutionary" is that such a high-tech solution is placed in something that people might actually buy. It is something like the Mazda Miata when it first came out and made such as splash. Many called it the best convertible made at the time, certainly ground-breaking, even though it was about the least expensive.

i would personally have kept the Gen's and build the room for them. Later on driven them actively with room correction.

Well, sure, but of course, that is a $100K option! What if MrClean WANTS the music in *that* room because that's where he wants to enjoy music? Imagine what Xds might sound like in a purpose built room if it can solve so many problems in a suboptimal room! I'm not saying that solution is wrong, but it is over the top. You could put Xds in every room and closet in your house for that much money

but i am not the type of person who jumpes on the first bandwaggon.

I thought you said this technology was old hat This isn't the "first bandwagon", it is just the nicest bandwagon to come along in quite awhile

NHT is not the first at all, my friend from Lyngdorf Audio in Stuttgart has the small Dalis driven actively with room corrections. Its exactly the same thing as your NHT's exept for the DALI drivers.

Not exactly the same at all. Even if your friend is using DEQX (and that is what it would take to be in the same ball park), the drivers are critical and while you can convert a speaker to active digital, there are HUGE advantages in designing the speaker from the ground up to BE digital only. This is the case with the NHT

And i simply would never buy it over the DIVA or Genesis V. Even the reporters of the show said that it sonds large for a small system but not large. The surface area, the drivers, the integration, tonal coloration etc.. are all things i want and if the system wont deliver it then i simply wont ever buy it, no matter how cute.

Granted, the Xd was not designed around your taste, it was designed around a "theoretical ideal" as envisioned by NHT. And, or course, dipole is something NHT doesn't do and probably never will. As happened with MrClean, dipoles are more room dependent and require a fairly wide wall and distance from the back wall to sound right. When they are setup well, they sing. When they are not, they sound mediocre at best. Xd isn't designed to conquer the world or convince all audiophiles that this is the path. It is simply what it is and it is designed to put ultra high-end performance into a package that normal people can rationalize and enjoy. It *is* SOTA and it *is* true high-end. But it doesn't look like it from the outside. And it all about the music, not about the gear or the preconceptions, biases, etc. It may be "cute", but it's also a "nymphomaniac" and will change your expectations for your next "encounter"

Anyway, i know your preferences from reading some of your posts on Audio Circle, so it's completely fine, I don't want to convince you of anything, just clear up a few things and help you keep an open mind if you can. It will probably give you a few ideas of what might be done with your dipole speakers. Others are already investigating this full force with DEQX technology, so things are about to get interesting.

Happy listening!

[Florian]

Dont worry i will keep an open mind. When you say that you have to make a small baffle, special chassy (so it doesnt color) and use the DEQX devices etc... then your using them to overcome a problem. A instrument has a body and the sound reflects 360 degrees in real life. The MIC picksup that sound and also the reflections of that sound hitting the walls and other instruments in the place. Taking that recording and having it played back by a system which cannot radiate sound more than 180 degrees you will not reach the goal of having a life instrument playing in your room. A life concert hall or take any life recording the size of the hall and hight differences between the players is simply huge and the NHT's or any other box and planar system has to fake the size. But the tall linesource system comes much closer to the ideal. The membrane is not bended on a apogee and all the drivers have the same lack of color plus your moving some serious air. All the instruments are displayed in the same size rightness. I am sure you will agree that the NHT will not put a real Grand Piano in my room with the sheer size, this simply wont happen. And in order for that little cute driver to do that it has to fake the size, while the planar system doesnt. You need the DEQX to overcome time delay errors and even out the response. For me its too much of a compromise, digital filtering, digital eqing in the room, fake image size, different driver materials etc..I will give them a listen and see if i like them, but i am pretty certain that my conclusion will be the same as with all the other "oh this is new and so great products" systems. Once you go with a planar, you wont go back. And there is a good reason for that

[Florian]

About the transiants response, i agree and thats another huge strongpoint of the ribbons and the fact they they are all the same and the huge magnetic field that this lightweight membrane moves in. About the dispersion, the big linesources in my room do not fake height dispersion, but the NHT's have to do this. This is another strong point why i never liked box speakers. I need close to the real height i cant stand anything else. Soundstage size is extremely important to me. Then you have the lack of coloration, incredibly good transiant repsonse. No problem with the chassy at all and no problem with subwoofer integration. No hassle with different drivers and its easy to drive and can play over 115db in a 40m2 room measured 4m away. Why on earth would i change that ?

PS: I still think its great that NHT combined it all in a neat package, but it wont cut it for me. I will recomend them to all WAF people and to those that dont want to push a 275lbs speaker.

[MrClean]

The Apogees are great speakers, no doubt. But they, too, fake image height, width and depth, unless you can pack a jazz quartet, a rock band, or a 107 member sympony orchestra into the space that the Divas occupy. The whole purpose of your stereo setup is to create the illusion of something that isn't there. I'm pretty sure your listening room doesn't seat 2300 people ;-)

J

[John Ashman]

When you say that you have to make a small baffle, special chassy (so it doesnt color) and use the DEQX devices etc... then your using them to overcome a problem.

Not really. The small, low diffraction baffle means you hear more driver, less cabinet. That's just pure physics. The DEQX side steps half the problems with conventional speakers and compensates for most of the others. It's avoiding problems that other speakers have, not overcoming a problematic design.

A instrument has a body and the sound reflects 360 degrees in real life. The MIC picksup that sound and also the reflections of that sound hitting the walls and other instruments in the place. Taking that recording and having it played back by a system which cannot radiate sound more than 180 degrees you will not reach the goal of having a life instrument playing in your room.

There are a few problems with your ideas here. First, when you record this ambience, you are recording the sound required to make the sound seem "live" with a proper transducer. Purposely bouncing even more sound off of the back wall simply overlays your room over the concert hall. Second, dipoles don't radiate 360 degrees. In fact, they have lower total ambient energy in the room than a monopole, but need to be along a wide wall with a tall ceiling and be well away from the front wall in order to make the sound develop in a realistic fashion. Many people can not have a large speaker 3'-5' from the wall, don't have a wide wall or tall ceiling, and thus the front wall reflection overpowers that sound and makes the speaker sound congested. Different solutions are required for different environments and few can set up dipoles properly.

A life concert hall or take any life recording the size of the hall and hight differences between the players is simply huge and the NHT's or any other box and planar system has to fake the size.

I'm sorry, but could you detail exactly how NHT has to "fake" the size? They are simply trying to provide uniform dispersion within a full hemispherical radiation pattern. What do you mean by "fake". There is no DSP such as SRS or Q-sound or anything going on.

But the tall linesource system comes much closer to the ideal. The membrane is not bended on a apogee and all the drivers have the same lack of color plus your moving some serious air. All the instruments are displayed in the same size rightness. I am sure you will agree that the NHT will not put a real Grand Piano in my room with the sheer size, this simply wont happen.

I don't know how large your room is, so I tentatively disagree. Unless your room is huge, there is no reason why it won't. In fact, I took these speakers to a customers house and set them up. To the left was a large grand piano. The customer put on a Hough piano CD and left the room to quiet his dogs. I didn't realize that he had pressed "play". When the piano came in with such force and realism, I snapped my head around to look at the piano because I was sure that someone had snuck into the room and started playing it. It actually startled the heck out of me, as though someone had snuck and behind me and yelled "boo!" Actual story.

And in order for that little cute driver to do that it has to fake the size, while the planar system doesnt.

The problem here is that that it is hard to record instrument size except through the ambient cues from the original venue. A line source will make all instruments sound bigger. A point source will generally make them sound smaller. However, if the dispersion is broad enough, the room environment will great a "bigness" with many instruments while still allowing a voice to be small and focused. It is simply a different perspective on the sound. Some people like "all big, all the time" and others like pinpoint imaging. The Xd, because of its size, can produce pin point imaging, but also, because of its dispersion properties, give some "size" to the sound. There is no right answer, just different approaches. Different approaches will work better in different rooms and different setups. Remember that monopoles are still radating sound that will bounce of the back wall, just not as much. Note that an orchestra is not jammed up against the wall as many speakers need to me. The sound is allowed to develop around the instruments with generally 10'-20' behind the instruments which keep the initial front wall reflections from overpowering the sound. Monopoles minimize this. To do a dipole or bipole truly right, you'd want a very large room, to get the same type of ambient balance in a concert hall. [quote]

You need the DEQX to overcome time delay errors and even out the response. For me its too much of a compromise, digital filtering, digital eqing in the room, fake image size, different driver materials etc..[quote]

Yes, but MOST speakers "need" this. Most speakers are very high in time delay errors and FR. DEQX is not a "cheat". It doesn't "fake" anything. It is like saying 4WD is somehow cheating in the snow. Many are using DEQX with line arrays and reporting excellent results. It simply removes compromises and fixes issues that are difficult to fix in the analog domain. I'd still like to know what you mean by "fake image size"

Once you go with a planar, you wont go back. And there is a good reason for that

Once YOU go planar, you won't go back. I've personally helped *many* people come back from planar and they are happy about it