Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[Florian]

To be fair to Audio Note though, it is not the quantity of the materials used, but more the quality. My understanding is that their Quality Control and Rejection Ratio for drivers and crossover components is high, as their tolerances are extremely tight. Q.C. testing takes time, and therefore raises costs.

'Well so does VMPS. All crossovers are handbuild by Brian Cheney and the driver selection is very strict also. Everything is handbuild too. They have been in buisines for over 20 and won the CES several times. Still they are fairly priced. 'The RM30 comes in at 3500$ + shipping. The original Apogee ribbons where all handcut, the magnetic structure was hand laid. So thats no excuse for AN high prices. But if the speaker is good, people will pay the price for it.

-Flo

[RGA]

Florian

Very few Audio Note speakers are "highly" priced and the tight tolerances are there with the lower end models. They hand tune and measure every single speaker that leaves the shop -- so if your kid or cat ruins a woofer they can go into their file and get you an exact match of the driver or as close as is possible...becuase they get the drivers from SEAS they have to test every single driver they get. Yes they have extremely expensive gear as well but they are often one-off hand built units -- the Gaku On mono block take over 1000 hours or 6 months to build for the pair. The silver rolled parts in the AN E Sogon run nearly $40,000.00 just for the parts. One can argue that this is just an extreme vision of the design and you won;t get an argument from me -- but they are not really meant to be sold but rather "done" for the owner's sake for himself -- and if you want want they'll make it but you're going to pay through the nose for it. And even at $125k that is only about 3 times cost compared to some makers at 10 or more times cost.

My speakers are $3,575.00US list so I'm not sure I get the high price part if VMPS is $3,500.00 then they should also be putting "time" into them. Some big companies don't want high rejection rates because that adds expense and they sure as hell don;twant to waste any sort of time checking every speaker that rolls off the line -- this raises costs and reduces profits...part of the reason Paper drivers are not as used -- though Dunlavey used them I'm pretty sure. If Lynn Olson is correct part of the reason for Kevlar and polyprolene is not for sonic advantages because I don't see that or hear it but it's a far easier material to implement and there is more Consistency across speakers -- so if you get a 705 in Baltimore or Poland it will be pretty much the same - with AN the drivers unchecked and not tuned will yield results that the guy in Poland and the guy in baltimore might have a different sounding speaker!! And that would not be ideal obviously.

The other issue is paper is not as forgiving to climates. Kevlar and plastic have no problems and when you are trying to gain market share having a B&W need re-foaming in five years may get you a LOT of complaints -- complaints can turn into less sales, less sales = less marketshare. Audio Note is never going to care about that because they're never going to worry B&W sales staff. In some climates the foam will need to be replaced in as little as 5 years -- People buying them mostly understand this and accept it as a 'tune-up" deal.

As for simplicity it is not surprising that Peter's(Qvortrup) favorite speaker is a single driver Lowther PM4 and a speaker from Siemens Klangfilm designs as the best but they require a mansion to run properly.

The idea of attemting to build a system with as little error correction as possible (because you they are trying to build a system which doesn't create the errors in the first place) is a seemingly logical goal to strive for. Why add a third driver a fourth driver another crossover "correction switch" with each one when most of these still produce less bass? The DACs are well known for this as it is, and the SET / SEP is the simplist amplifier design and the most linear.

Granted there are many arguments against all of this -- in fact most arguments against this approach and the people at B&W are probably the ones nearly at a polar opposite viewpoint -- or perhaps just a polar opposite "marketing" viewpoint. Just because one works at Ford doesn't mean they would not rather own a Ferrari.

Lastly with costs -- when something is not in high supply but needed(demand) prices go up. there are tubes today that cost tons of money today that cost practically nothing in the 1960. And this goes for tweeters woofers ribbons or whatever else. The fact that one tweeter is $20.00 and one is $200.00 doesn;t make a whole pile of difference if at the end of it the $20.00 tweeter near perflectly matches the woofer doesn;t sound bright or harsh but smooth and engaging -- Legacy uses some fo the best drivers but I wonder when listening to them if they really know how to design speakers or just putting a lot of pricey stuff in their box so they can say look we use the best scanspeak this or the best woofer that and the best crossover.

The New York Yankees have done that 5 years in a row and have not won the world series either.

Lastly, VMPS looks to be a good speaker and one i will want to audition at CES in Vegas -- I would nto put any sock into best sound -- what dioes that mean? no one person can hear EVERY single system that was brought to the show -- and that IS what is required for any sort of credibility. Lots of stuff wins lots of awards -- So did the Bose 305 in Europe back in 1996 -- so it doesn;t mean much -- also looking at the winner class A stereophile stuff I wonder -- and hey Stereophile had ZERO Magnepan in their list so does that mean now Magnepan is junk -- I don't think so Tim.

[Florian]

Well i was never saying otherwise. If you could own the flagship AN, would you buy it?
Or is the flagship only slightly better than your model? The point i am trying to make is that in general more money gives you more sound. Could i listen to a Maggie 1.6 and be happy? Yes, but if i could i would have bough the 20.1...well not anymore but you get the picture.

-Flo

[RGA]

Well yes if I won the lotto then I would certainly buy a higher end model of AN gear and if Magnepan did it for me then I would go from the 1.6 to the 20.1. So I think people here will agree with you in terms of a one company moving up the line OFTEN gets you more speaker for your money.

Where you may run into some argument is when you go ACROSS companies. I would buy the $14,000 N801 over the $300.00 B&W DM 302 or the $2500 CDM 7NT. So if your world was B&W then you are getting more speaker for more money.

However, going across companies I would even if price were identical buy the AN J/Spe over the N801 because to my ear it sounds a LOT better...so this is a $14k to $3,500 example where paying more dioesn't get more at least to me (but I'm not alone). It isn;t really a better or worse issue really but one of the KIND of sound.

I know people who say they would buy an MMG over any boxed speaker three times the price -- well this isn;t much different. They are arguing that one could pay way more and get less. I was impressed with the 1.6 but I've heard cheaper speakers that I might like better and I've heard speaker at a LOT more that I don't like.

That is the point UHF was making -- some EXTREMELY priced esoteric gear doesn't cut it to them. Indeed, some people would rather listen to a $3-5K SET amp over ANYTHING else at ANY price. I have heard recently a set-up that was going for more than $65,000.00 that frankly I would not take over what I had at the time for under $6k.

[Florian]

Well i think that now we are getting somewhere. I do agree with you, but want to ask one more question. Do you think that its wrong to asume that a system costing 10 times more is not better just because you have heard a model from that company that you didnt like?

-Flo

[RGA]

It depends on the sound - for instance the Paradigm Studio 20 and 100 sound very much alike -- the latter has a thicker bassier sound but there is certainly a striking hous sound there.

I don't think it would be fair to assume that because you hear the 20 that you will KNOW how the S8 sounds. I also don't think it would be fair to judge Audio Note on a lower model (though it's fair to judge THAT speaker against its competitors at around that price. But the AX Two sounds very little like the E.

There are many speakers we don;t have access to -- so in lieu of that I go by people's ears I trust until such time as I can hear it myself. My dealer doesn't like one of the Wharfedale speakers he carries but I do.

I think it's often best to hear the best example of what a company has on tap -- that is not always the biggest or most expensive model in their line-up though..

[drseid]

Legacy uses some fo the best drivers but I wonder when listening to them if they really know how to design speakers or just putting a lot of pricey stuff in their box so they can say look we use the best scanspeak this or the best woofer that and the best crossover.

Actually RGA, I would have just stopped at "Legacy uses some of the best drivers." :-)

The Whispers are one of the best speaker models ever designed to my ears (and many of the other Legacy designs are no slouches either for that matter like the Signature IIIs). Yes, they use great expensive drivers by Eton, but the design is just as sound. I don't think Bill Dudleston has anything to worry about. I'll put the Whispers up against almost anything in their price class... I am not saying they are "the best," but they will hold their own quite nicely.

Now the VMPS RM40s (while not to my personal taste when I heard them earlier this year) are a good example of speakers that objectively have the goods at even a lower price point to challenge the Whispers.

---Dave

[RGA]

I only heard Legacy once and never caught the model name -- the dealer soon after got rid of them and nobody since then has picked them up -- so I'm willing to say it may have been a bad set-up so I should not have lumped them in -- it was more about an AA posting that picked the design apart - but hey they pick aprat everything so we'll see.

[drseid]

I only heard Legacy once and never caught the model name -- the dealer soon after got rid of them and nobody since then has picked them up -- so I'm willing to say it may have been a bad set-up so I should not have lumped them in -- it was more about an AA posting that picked the design apart - but hey they pick aprat everything so we'll see.

Yes, there is a specific member there at AA(I know his moniker, but will withold it as I am not trying to start something up here) that has a long-time grudge against Legacy and tries to post negatives on most of their speakers whenever a Legacy post pops up...

It dates back to my old posting days here about 7-8 years ago (under a different moniker) when a guy by the name of CE (I am sure many still remember *him*) drove most regulars away (myself included) with his inane pro-Legacy Focus posts. Now, as a result there is an element of "payback" from this other individual who is equally bad. Really too bad, as the truth lies somewhere in between, but people can easily get burnt out with all the Legacy battles between the two.

---Dave

[RGA]

Well that explains something then...I can somewhat sympathize with that being in some similar posts -- just change the company

[thepogue]

He used to make me lol...he was a peice of work!!...the Legecy...Phillips king...lol...wow..has it been 6 or 7 years...whew...


It was a wild place...don't really miss ALL of it...but it was WILD>..lol

Pogue

Yes, there is a specific member there at AA(I know his moniker, but will withold it as I am not trying to start something up here) that has a long-time grudge against Legacy and tries to post negatives on most of their speakers whenever a Legacy post pops up...

It dates back to my old posting days here about 7-8 years ago (under a different moniker) when a guy by the name of CE (I am sure many still remember *him*) drove most regulars away (myself included) with his inane pro-Legacy Focus posts. Now, as a result there is an element of "payback" from this other individual who is equally bad. Really too bad, as the truth lies somewhere in between, but people can easily get burnt out with all the Legacy battles between the two.

---Dave

[drseid]

He used to make me lol...he was a peice of work!!...the Legecy...Phillips king...lol...wow..has it been 6 or 7 years...whew...


It was a wild place...don't really miss ALL of it...but it was WILD>..lol

Pogue

Oh yes, Phillips... How could I have forgotten *that* one. :-)

Wild is a good description... ;-)

---Dave

[thepogue]

the wilddddd west...in our case...east...BTW we do need to hook-up and do some listening together!! soon I hope!! Peace, Pogue

[drseid]

the wilddddd west...in our case...east...BTW we do need to hook-up and do some listening together!! soon I hope!! Peace, Pogue

Yep... I look forward to it. Just PM me whenever you are ready, and we can work out all the details. :-)

---Dave