Found a local JM Lab retailer

[IRG]

Found a retailer a few hours away who has some Von Schweikert VR1 demos in like new condition. He's going to call me to tell me a price that "I will be very happy with" Cant wait to hear what the price is.

I do have some questions though. Like IRG, how do these speakers do with rock music? I listen to A Perfect Circle, Tool, Pink Floyd, Gathering, porcupine Tree, Neil Young, Tori AMos, etc. Also, how will they perform with my Marantz receiver?

I've been into A Perfect Circle lately. Great recordings, that can only benefit from a good speaker. Do you like the new cd? It is a bit different to me, but sounds great. I love Floyd too. Haven't heard Porcupine Tree - what genre -or who are they similar to?

I've been considering the Paradigm Monitor series lately. Now that the Version4 is coming out, the older v3 are being discounted by my dealer. He will sell me the floorstanders which are normally $750 for the price of the Monitor 5 which are $580. I won't need stands then, which is one plus. Could also buy a smaller 10" sub instead of a 12".

One advantage of going with "popular" speakers like Paradigm, B&W, etc. is that they resell well. I have some older JBL speakers, and I am really surprised at how well they have resold. I have one on ebay now, the auction isn't over, and I am almost selling it for what I paid for, and that was 5 years ago. Amazing. There is a pair of B&W 602 S3 speakers for sale, and already that auction is up to $500, plus shipping, you aren't too far off from the original price of $650 (and that is list I believe).

The VR-1, as amazing as they may be at $1k, are already selling for $500-$600 used a year later. That is a pretty high depreciation rate. Same with most high end speakers - they lose value fairly quickly, depending on the model, and timing too. If you hold onto speakers for a long time though, I guess it doesn't matter. I like to switch every so often, so this does play into it some for me.

The Monitor series is probably better for rock, and equally good on most mainstream music. If you don't listen to rock, and prefer mellower music or female voices/piano there may be better choices, but not that the Monitors can't do other forms of music well. ANd they are probably well suited for HT too, something I need to consider.

The only thing I don't like is the finish. And to get them shielded, you have to order black, which in this speaker is a bit drab. I get the feeling, although I have nothing to back this up with, is that the "specialty" speakers like Triangle, Von Schweikert, etc. that are popular right now, (at least their monitor size speakers) may not be used by their owners for rocking music. And maybe they aren't designed that way. I just get the feeling that APC may sound better on Paradigm or B&W than the VR-1. But only listening (at home) can really confirm this.

P.S. I think your Marantz will be fine, and you may be able to add a power amp to this using the preouts, correct? Something to consider in the future. I might also do the same with my NAD.

[topspeed]

I've seen the VR-1s for sale on audiogon - they way to go IMO.

Agreed.

They need to be able to rock a little bit too, and not sure if this is the speaker that can do that. Seems like most "reviews" like Diania Krall, and other female voices, and that is all well and good, but if I can't hear a distorted guitar sound like a distorted guitar, then it isn't for me. I tend to like brighter speakers, because of the detail in guitar, cymbals, etc. I don't want listener fatigue, but then again, I don't get to play music for very long anyway.

Albert Von Schweikert and his right hand man, Kevin, are both musicians. In fact, they routinely jam in their listening room and then play it back through their speakers to make sure they are as close to "live" as possible. This is one of the methods VSA uses to properly voice their speakers. If you read the reviews or get an opportunity to audition any VSA speaker, you'll realize one of their cornerstones is dynamics, which is essential to rock. Consider that the 706 S is rated to only 55hz whereas the VR1 is rated to 40hz @ -3dB (an included FR measurement is approved & signed by Albert for every speaker to ensure matched pairs). Which do you think will reproduce bass with more authority? The VSA tweeter is a soft dome unit that offers clarity and extension to 25khz. It isn't the least bit fatiguing yet offers exceptional detailing and air. This is the exact same tweeter they use in the VR4jr, a speaker that is blowing away just about every reviewer that can get their hands on one. BTW, I've been a drummer for over 30 years and can attest that this speaker handles cymbals very, very well and will easily out-rock B&W (a speaker rightfully known for it's somewhate polite character).

Someday I will invest heavily in some really good speakers, for now, I just want something different, and hopefully a little better. It may be that my C-3 are good enough for now. I also like the B&W 602 S3, and they seem to be in every comparison for someone looking at speakers under $1k. Can't be all bad.

You're right, the 600's are very good speakers indeed. I have B&W's in my main rig and considered the 600's and 700's as front runners as I obviously like the B&W sound. I ask that you consider this: I'm a B&W owner with a clear bias yet preferred another make by a considerable margin. What does that tell you?

I was fortunate in that my dealer carries both JML and VSA therefore I was able to audition both side by side, in my own rig. The JML's went back after one day.

I do have some questions though. Like IRG, how do these speakers do with rock music? I listen to A Perfect Circle, Tool, Pink Floyd, Gathering, porcupine Tree, Neil Young, Tori AMos, etc. Also, how will they perform with my Marantz receiver?

The VR1's are 8ohm nom./5ohm min. They don't come much easier. Hell, a 5w SET amp could easily drive 'em. FWIW, I use a vintage 30w Marantz 2230 to drive mine and in case you couldn't tell, I'm a fairly happy camper . Your receiver will be just fine and more importantly, when you do upgrade to separates, the VSA's have the resolution and transparency to highlight the improvements.

The good news is that you've chosen exceptional speakers, whether B&W, JML, or VSA. Now it's up to you to decide what sounds best in your house, with your equipment, playing what you like.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide.

[Duds]

That was an awesome post!!!! Like I said in an earlier post, I'm, waiting to hear what price I can get the demos for. I must say the VS's looks awesome, not that it matters as sound is important, but you can tell the effort that went into building them.

I still plan on listening to the JML's this weekend though just to see what they sound like.

Thanks for the info from everyone, very helpful

[IRG]

Agreed.
Albert Von Schweikert and his right hand man, Kevin, are both musicians. In fact, they routinely jam in their listening room and then play it back through their speakers to make sure they are as close to "live" as possible. This is one of the methods VSA uses to properly voice their speakers. If you read the reviews or get an opportunity to audition any VSA speaker, you'll realize one of their cornerstones is dynamics, which is essential to rock. Consider that the 706 S is rated to only 55hz whereas the VR1 is rated to 40hz @ -3dB (an included FR measurement is approved & signed by Albert for every speaker to ensure matched pairs). Which do you think will reproduce bass with more authority? The VSA tweeter is a soft dome unit that offers clarity and extension to 25khz. It isn't the least bit fatiguing yet offers exceptional detailing and air. This is the exact same tweeter they use in the VR4jr, a speaker that is blowing away just about every reviewer that can get their hands on one. BTW, I've been a drummer for over 30 years and can attest that this speaker handles cymbals very, very well and will easily out-rock B&W (a speaker rightfully known for it's somewhate polite character).

You're right, the 600's are very good speakers indeed. I have B&W's in my main rig and considered the 600's and 700's as front runners as I obviously like the B&W sound. I ask that you consider this: I'm a B&W owner with a clear bias yet preferred another make by a considerable margin. What does that tell you?

I was fortunate in that my dealer carries both JML and VSA therefore I was able to audition both side by side, in my own rig. The JML's went back after one day.

The VR1's are 8ohm nom./5ohm min. They don't come much easier. Hell, a 5w SET amp could easily drive 'em. FWIW, I use a vintage 30w Marantz 2230 to drive mine and in case you couldn't tell, I'm a fairly happy camper . Your receiver will be just fine and more importantly, when you do upgrade to separates, the VSA's have the resolution and transparency to highlight the improvements.

The good news is that you've chosen exceptional speakers, whether B&W, JML, or VSA. Now it's up to you to decide what sounds best in your house, with your equipment, playing what you like.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide.

Thanks for the post - indeed it was helpful. I wish I could have 4 pairs of speakers to listen to at once in my home, probably not going to happen. The way to do it though. Listen with your own gear in your own environment. To me, most auditions in a store don't tell me very much. Has anyone else felt this way? Nothing is familiar, I hate it when other people are looking around when you are, and even if they aren't you just aren't comfortable. Maybe I am a bit weird, who knows. I guess it is somewhat helpful to weed out what you don't like but even then, I believe most of the speakers being made (like what we have been discussing) are all of decent quality, what varies is preference toward one bias or another.

The VR-1 do have me intrigued. I've started another thread under the Paradigm Monitor series, as they also may be a decent speaker for me. So much to listen to, so little time. And so little money to spend! What I might do is get something like the Paradigms now, and in 2 years sell them on ebay, and then step up to the VS when I have more cash. Something to look forward to. Unless I find a good deal on ebay. The 2 that were listed in audiogon are sold. Hot commodity. Thanks again

[topspeed]

One advantage of going with "popular" speakers like Paradigm, B&W, etc. is that they resell well...The VR-1, as amazing as they may be at $1k, are already selling for $500-$600 used a year later. That is a pretty high depreciation rate. Same with most high end speakers - they lose value fairly quickly, depending on the model, and timing too.

Good point. B&W enjoys the highest resale value of any speaker. Why? Quality of construction, quality of sound, and most importantly name recognition. Do you think Joe Public on e-bay has heard of VSA, Green Mountain, Audio Note, or other smaller brands? Pricing is all about supply and demand and naturally the more visible a brand is, the more demand there will be for it. You also have to consider street price vs. msrp. I bought my B&W for over 30% off msrp and bought my VR1's new for less than they are going for on audiogon. If you find the right dealer and know a thing or two about negotiation, you'd be surprised at what can be accomplished.

I get the feeling, although I have nothing to back this up with, is that the "specialty" speakers like Triangle, Von Schweikert, etc. that are popular right now, (at least their monitor size speakers) may not be used by their owners for rocking music. And maybe they aren't designed that way. I just get the feeling that APC may sound better on Paradigm or B&W than the VR-1. But only listening (at home) can really confirm this.

Read my post about voicing. A great speaker can do everything from Patricia Barber to Pink Floyd. They aren't one dimensional.

[jasmit]

How much are the 707s going for? I've been talking with a dealer (not local to me) and I can get the 706 s for $440 (plus no tax). This seems like a good deal. I have a pair of Energy C-3 now, and like them, but I just want a change. Is the JM Lab a step up, a lateral move, or a step down? I also would like the Von Schweikerts but they are too much for me now. The other contenders are the Monitor Audio S1 or S2, The Monitor Audio GR10 (used), Boston Acoustics VRM60.

FYI, I will be powering the JM Labs (or whatever I get) with a NAD T743 receiver, and eventually a dedicated 2 channel amp, but for now the NAD will suffice, and a sub, and the room size is about 13 x 9, with one wall open. HT will be 80%, music 20%, but it is the music that I worry about first. To me, that is the much harder thing to get right than HT. I have no rear surrounds yet. Still looking for a location.

Thanks.

Sorry IRG, I don't recall what the JMLab Chorus 707's cost; I think they were generally competetive with the B&W 602 S3's and the Paradigm Monitor 5's -- $600ish? I'm not familiar with Energy speakers so I don't know if the Chorus 707's would be a step up.

When I was auditioning speakers, I also listened to Monitor Audio Bronze series speakers. I recall them as being very nice sounding for their price. While I didn't hear any of the Silver series speakers, I imagine they are great sounding.

Happy speaker hunting!

[RGA]

Duds - to clear up a misconception -- tube amps do not have a warm sound - at least not that can be generalized and many tube amps can actually do leading edges of strings better than most any SS amps I have heard. Also there are many SS amps such as the Sugden I just traded that are slightly veiled sounding (some Creeks too) which could be argued sound warm - some sound highly analytical - Bryston and a some Antique Sound Labs Tube amps. People play fast and loose with generalizaions -- I'm guilty too. Not very many speakers like to be partnered with tube amps - and sensitivity is not a valuable tool in determining whether a speaker will be tube amp friendly or not. A mismatch can cause a tube to amp try and create a level of damping it can't muster -- and power it can;t muster and will result in a bit of a mushy bass line -- when that happens the bass can lag a little sounding wooly. This in turn could be viewed as warm because you no longer get a tight grip on bass for the punchy sound.

Excellent tube amps are excellent - most aren't -- ditto for SS amplifiers for that matter.

As for speakers - listen to a lot of stuff and gain experience that way. B&W is a good starting point. If this is strictly for two channel keep your ears open and listen to some of the brands your dealers carry that you've never heard of -- it's a risk to carry no name brands so they may be there because they actually resemble music-- most stuf doesn't and price is very indirectly related to quality. If you like the sound of the Monitor Audio's then I suggest you listen for SEVERAL hours and run through virutually every kind of music you like -- if they are not spot on throughout keep looking -- if they are then you've found a sound you like and there you go.

[Duds]

wow, it's a price that will be hard to pass up. I have the opportunity to have them shipped to me to audition them in my home too, so I think this will work out great. Or I may just buy them, since I also have the opportunity to return them of for some reason they dont work for me.

Stay tuned!!

[IRG]

wow, it's a price that will be hard to pass up. I have the opportunity to have them shipped to me to audition them in my home too, so I think this will work out great. Or I may just buy them, since I also have the opportunity to return them of for some reason they dont work for me.

Stay tuned!!

And what price would that be? Inquiring minds want to know! To me, this is the best way to audition speakers, have them sent to your home, and if you like 'em, keep 'em, and if not, ship them back. Not too much lost. How much did you see the JM Labs Chorus 706 S for? $440 was a price I got. Let me know...

[Duds]

I can brand spankin new VR1's with the VR1 stands for less than what a pair of Paradigm Studio 20v3's cost without stands....

[IRG]

I can brand spankin new VR1's with the VR1 stands for less than what a pair of Paradigm Studio 20v3's cost without stands....

Is this a deal you can share with me, a certain dealer for example that is willing to deal? Or is this a special for you only? If you want to email me, that would be great. Thanks, irg

[Duds]

message sent

[IRG]

message sent

I left work yesterday before I got your message, so I will check it out on Monday. It has me curious...

[MusicLG]

Duds,
I was out there auditioning for months, and listened to B&W, Paradigm, Maggies, Monitor Audio, Saphire, and many others, including Focal-JMLab. I found the JML's to be the best combination of warmth (but not boxy, like some HT speakers) and high end accuracy. Unfortunately, though I started listening to the Cobalts, I asked to hear the Electra 926s. Mistake, cause I fell in love with them, and found, IMHO, nothing else came close to satisfying my ears. Of course, this lead to a new electric stack (simaudio)...but I figure I have earning years ahead to make up for it. Good luck on your search.

I do have a question for the experts on this post. With my kids doing their homework and a sometimes testy wife, I can't play the speakers loud enough to truly appreciate their potential. So the question is: should I compensate for that by investing in a subwoofer? Would that help to produce great sound at lower volumes? Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.

MusicLG

[theaudiohobby]

I do have a question for the experts on this post. With my kids doing their homework and a sometimes testy wife, I can't play the speakers loud enough to truly appreciate their potential. So the question is: should I compensate for that by investing in a subwoofer? Would that help to produce great sound at lower volumes? Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.
MusicLG

The Answer to your question is No. Get a pair of good headphones for private listening, they are lot cheaper than speakers, there are lot of good ones around, Seinheisers HD650, I am considering the Etymotic 4P at present. Personally I am in love with the AKG K1000 because they have an absolutely brilliant sound but require an investment in superb amplifier or at the very least a decent speaker selector.