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  1. #1
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    praying to speaker gods for new mains/fronts

    Looks like I need better fronts to match a rotel rb 1070, any advice would be much appreciated. I just want something for the right price to get the job done and they have to match or beat my cerwin vegas 4of them(v12f 12" wfr, 10-300watts, 98db, 28 htz -20000mhtz) the cerwins will be on surround, so I'll be running them off the yamaha. Right now I'm borrowing a pair of wharfedales and using 7.1 and liking it (the yam only gets slightly warm so far) but these new speakers will be through the rotel and will be to take stress off the amp while adding two channel music power and also for the future when if ever I want to upgrade to 9.1 (only on the yammy rxz9 so far). Anyways, you guys know your speakers and my budget is roughly 600-850 cdn. Please direct me to the right speakers for the next few years of listening. I figure I need awesome ones. Kits or on-line buying might be a good idea. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. budget
    Looks like I need better fronts to match a rotel rb 1070, any advice would be much appreciated. I just want something for the right price to get the job done and they have to match or beat my cerwin vegas 4of them(v12f 12" wfr, 10-300watts, 98db, 28 htz -20000mhtz) the cerwins will be on surround, so I'll be running them off the yamaha. Right now I'm borrowing a pair of wharfedales and using 7.1 and liking it (the yam only gets slightly warm so far) but these new speakers will be through the rotel and will be to take stress off the amp while adding two channel music power and also for the future when if ever I want to upgrade to 9.1 (only on the yammy rxz9 so far). Anyways, you guys know your speakers and my budget is roughly 600-850 cdn. Please direct me to the right speakers for the next few years of listening. I figure I need awesome ones. Kits or on-line buying might be a good idea. Thanks.
    Mr. Budget:
    Before we get into this, let's first figure out what your goal is. Are you looking for solid 2-channel music performance, are you more interested in improving your 7.1 capability for Home Theater, or is it a mix of the two, that is 50/50 HT and Stereo (or some other ratio)?
    Dear God, please tell me you aren't seriously thinking about a 9.1 system.
    At this stage in the game, you would probably enjoy a properly set-up 5.1 system with better speakers more than a 9.1 system with lesser speakers. And keep in mind you can have as high an X.1 system as you want, but as of today, there are no DVD's that even record in a true 7.1 format, 6.1 is as high as it gets, and those are relatively rare.

    If you want to improve your home theater, then I suggest you consider buying no fewer than 3 speakers at once...front mains, and a matching center channel. This will eat up a good chunk of your budget, you could look at Paradigm Mini Monitors or Monitor 3's and the CC-370 for example, or Energy Connoisseur C-3's and the C-C3 center channel. These are just a few in your price range that I happen to like, but there's really a ton of other good speakers out there, and your tastes might be a bit different than mine.
    Sell your current CV's to make room or something and use the existing surrounds...later on, it is extremely important to buy matching surround speakers for the sides (and rears in a 7.1) for the best results - this can't be overstated. But for now, on your budget, start with the front 3.

    If you're don't really care too much about the home theater thing, can live with the current HT speakers, you are serious about getting in to higher fidelity stereo music, you can afford better speakers, and your choice becomes more difficult. Get out there and start demo-ing.

    As for buying "kits" on line, well, after years of buying brand name speakers, I was persuaded about a year and a half ago to tackle a speaker project by a friend of mine who helps run a Do-It-Yourself club where I was living in Maine. Since then I've been hooked on the DIY thing, if you have the time, tools, and patience, you can save yourself a ton of money building your own speakers. If you don't have many tools, and aren't an experienced woodworker or handy with a soldering iron, a good option is to buy already designed "kits" as you mentioned. You'll still save money, and can buy nice, pre-fab cabinets. There's quite a few good ones out there today, but 2 in particular I've had first hand experience with and can recommend for both their low-difficulty level, and great sound quality are the Dayton BR-1 and the EFE Technology Audioreview.com DIY kit.

    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...number=300-642
    The BR-1 is a great first project because it comes with everything you need, including cabinets for $150 USD ($185 or so Canadian + shipping, taxes, etc.) and despite it's rather bland (okay, almost ugly) looks has a sound on par with speakers costing $400. I've personally done side by side comparisons with the Paradigm Mini Monitors and these. The BR-1's are noticeably warmer, have better bass and a smoother, more natural midrange and a bit wider, deeper soundstage...The Mini's have a bit more top end detail which you might like and are more efficient (need a bit less power to play loud), but are definitely not any better. Just a different flavor. I'm planning on building my parents a set of these with custom cabinets to replace the Paradigm Titans/CC-170 home theater system they have now...(which also cost more). The price is certainly right, you could buy 6 of these for under $600 Canadian and use one pair for front center and rear center channels...a perfectly matching system all around...or buy 8 and make yourself a 7.1 system with an extra speaker...not sure if Parts Express sells thes individually, but I don't think so. Best part is, all you need is a soldering iron, a bit of practice soldering (isn't hard) and you can assemble these in an hour or two.

    The Ar.com DIY kit from Madisound.com is more money, but is quite step up in terms of performance...after building a few other kits and 2 of my own designs, I ended up replacing my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's with 6 of these...not bad considering the Studio's were about 4 or 5 times as much money. The AR.com's are $340 USD with nice oak cabinets, but you can save a ton of money if you can build cabinets yourself, the parst are only $175 USD a pair. I think I built my 6 for an average of $215 a pair with a nice cherry veneer when all was finished. Compare that with the $700 USD or so my Studio 20's retailed for!
    Keep in mind your saving a ton of money on the labor (labour in Canada?), I probably put in about 10 hours a pair...if I was to pay myself for the time I invested I wouldn't have saved much money - which is probably why a lot of people don't go the DIY route, but if you like working with wood and consider it a hobby, or have more free time available than money like I did (weddings are f'n expensive - and I've still got 5 months left), this is the way to go. Send me a PM if you want any more info (I don't want to sound like a shill).
    Click the "Learn" link in the blue box at the top of this webpage to read a bit more about it.
    Here's the link to Madisound's website:
    http://www.madisound.com/ar_com.html

    I have to warn you...this turned into an addictive hobby for me, I've got I've built 3 kits now and designed 2 of my own, and I'm currently finishing up a subwoofer and starting my next 2 projects...I've got more speakers in my house than I know what to do with now. My fiancee wants me to at least sell my Wharfedales, Axioms, or Studio 40's...like other men, I guess I'm a bit of a pack-rat. Be careful, if this seems a bit overwhelming to you, then buying speakers from a good a/v store is the way to go...$500 in speaker parts sitting in your closet are no good to you if you don't think you can finish or don't have the time. This has happened now to 2 people I know.

  3. #3
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    I think I need a credit card. I'm going to get one. I think I'd like to try and build at least two really good speakers. It's about 50/50 for ht/stereo. I don't want to get rid of the cv's, I think they will be good on surround. Maybe I should just get the matching bookshelves and call this a system and then start building a new one to eventually replace it. I've got some thinking to do about this one. I've really got my heart set on 9.1, too bad the world doesn't yet see it that way, actually I'd rather have 15.1, I prefer speakers everywhere. Anyways, I was thinking to get two nice fronts and put the cerwins on surr/back surr, and keep the center. Like you say it won't match. Maybe if I did get 2 new fronts and a new matching center then put the cerwins on surround it might work. I think I need to start buying online because I'll get much better equipment that way. Thanks kexodusc, if I can get as many speakers as you have one day I'd be very happy. Darn, now I have to get a credit card, I should have got one before but they wanted me to go somewhere, so I just said no way. I think that's the way to go eh because if you keep going to the stores you keep getting about three brand names for hijacked prices and online you get every brand and for competitive prices. Now I'm having anxiety because I have to give my dad his wharfedales back and it'll be back to 5.1 for a while. I really do like the 7.1 much better. Anyways I'm going to have to get the credit card, that's the next step.
    Last edited by mr. budget; 04-19-2005 at 06:02 AM.

  4. #4
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    Isn't that the truth

    I have so many speakers in my house my significant other is getting a little perturbed. Not only is this hobby very addicting but expensive too. I have had to slow myself down so that I can get some of my cards and big screen TV paid off. Maybe a couple of months down the road I will tackle another project. Sure is fun though.

  5. #5
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    I hear ya Paul, and the worst part is watching the Deal of the Day pass by in between paychecks, or during a lean time in your budget...
    Next up is going to be some better measuring equipment though, I'm pretty confident this hobby will be long-term should be a good investment.
    I thought it would end with the kit designs...nope, that was just to get ya hooked.

  6. #6
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    Do you guys reccomend buying over the net? How do you do service or refunds and could you name a couple that are trustworthy? I think I'll go the net route and probably get will get kexodusc recommends. Kexodusc which ones would you recommend for fronts and mains. I live in an apartment so it'd be tough to make them here...or would it? I mean I'm all for making them as long as it's not going to cost a lot for equipment, maybe I could borrow the tools..it would be fun to make them too, then maybe I could learn to do some repairs, and maybe climb out on the ledge and wire up some digital cable from my neighbour. Kexodusc which ones would you recommend and would you recommend a center, also how do I make them, it does seem like I'd like to make them. Soldering iron, that might be a problem Thanks

  7. #7
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    Buying over the net from Parts Express or Madisound is very safe...I've dealt with both companies quite a bit over the last year and a half...you'll need a credit card though.

    You should be able to buy a soldering iron for $20-$40 or so...they're not that expensive and you don't need a $200 soldering iron to solder wires to terminal or assemble a crossover.

    Mr. Budget, since you are very new to this stuff, I'm tempted to recommend the BR-1's first. They come with all the cabinets and parts you need, as well as thorough, step-by-step instructions. And if you run into problems, the Tech Talk website at Parts Express is just a click away with hundreds of experienced builders who've done these before...All you'll need is maybe a drill/screwdriver and soldering iron I think, but read up on the link I gave you above.

    The Ar.com's, if you were to buy the pre-assembled crossovers from Madisound with the cabinets, aren't actually much more difficult and would sound quite a bit better, but also cost more money -which might be a greater risk to you...I believe all the holes are pre-drilled, so it's just a matter of assembling the speaker again, and instructions are available, as well as the hundreds who've built them.
    Keep in mind, both of these are good sounding, hi-fidelity stereo speakers, a bit different than your CV's which are bass thunderin', rock-n-roll, party-type speakers (I know, I use to own CV's -AC/DC never sounded so good).

    This would be a good learning experience if you are interested, and both options will stretch your dollar further in terms of the sound you will get instead of buying store-bought speakers in this price range...and hopefully introduce you to a very rewarding new hobby.
    Whatever you do, please take the time to read all the info you can from the links I've given to get a feel for these projects, and to see if you think you're up to the challenge. It's not hard, but I'd hate to be the one who convinced you to tackle something you decide later on isn't for you...As I've said, I know 2 people now that have parts sitting in their closets (more because of laziness than difficulty)...I wouldn't want a 3rd.

  8. #8
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    Thanks a lot kexodusc, I'm going to do some research on the links above. I don't see assembling to be a problem. I was looking for ones that could take a lot of power, adn I'd rather spend a couple hundred more and get the best ones in the pricerange then have buyers remorse like I did with the rxv650 (even though it's actually way better and too powerful for my system, I still feel like I needed the 1500 rather, but it's actually way way more than adequate for now...it's more than enough for what I'm doing with it...it's that upgradis bug I caught, I was thinking sensibly until much later, then it was all focused on more, better, upgrade, upgrade) Anyways, I'll check around, and it won't be too long before I get the card and some dough to burn). Thanks again

  9. #9
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    One point you might be interested in, and I can't stress this enough - look past the # of watts of input and output, and understand the physics so the manufacturers don't pull the wool over your eyes - the BR-1's are less efficient than the AR.com DIY's...with 1 watt the BR-1's will play 85 dB at 1 meter distance...still bleeding loud, but the AR.com's will play 89 dB with 1 watt. Basically, you'd need over double the power in the BR-1's to play at the same loudness as the AR.com's. I'm confident you have enough now, especially if you add an amp or two for either, but don't get carried away with high power numbers.
    For an interesting test, and a learning experience, find an SPL meter ($50 or so at Radio Shack) and check the volume you listen to music at...I'm betting when things are loud you use less than 5 watts per channel...most people use less than 1 watt at average listening levels, especially in apartments.. Makes that 110 watt/channel stuff seem kinda trivial, eh?

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. budget
    I think I need a credit card. I'm going to get one. I think I'd like to try and build at least two really good speakers. It's about 50/50 for ht/stereo. I don't want to get rid of the cv's, I think they will be good on surround. Maybe I should just get the matching bookshelves and call this a system and then start building a new one to eventually replace it. I've got some thinking to do about this one. I've really got my heart set on 9.1, too bad the world doesn't yet see it that way, actually I'd rather have 15.1, I prefer speakers everywhere. Anyways, I was thinking to get two nice fronts and put the cerwins on surr/back surr, and keep the center. Like you say it won't match. Maybe if I did get 2 new fronts and a new matching center then put the cerwins on surround it might work. I think I need to start buying online because I'll get much better equipment that way. Thanks kexodusc, if I can get as many speakers as you have one day I'd be very happy. Darn, now I have to get a credit card, I should have got one before but they wanted me to go somewhere, so I just said no way. I think that's the way to go eh because if you keep going to the stores you keep getting about three brand names for hijacked prices and online you get every brand and for competitive prices. Now I'm having anxiety because I have to give my dad his wharfedales back and it'll be back to 5.1 for a while. I really do like the 7.1 much better. Anyways I'm going to have to get the credit card, that's the next step.

    Reading all of your posts on this thread so far, I would just say hold your horses and take a step back. I think you need to establish some goals, and then figure out the best way to go about piecing together a system that meets those goals. You also need to assess what limitations you need to work around, such as room restrictions, budget, etc.

    You're looking to upgrade your front speakers, which is fine, but you're also looking to "upgrade" to "9.1" without mentioning anything about timbre matching. Keep in mind that there is NO such thing as true 7.1 or 9.1 for consumers. The back surround channels on a "7.1" system are nothing more than a split monophonic output of the back surround channel. Keep in mind that fewer than 0.1% of all the DVD titles on the market are currently encoded in 6.1 (which is the most that you can currently get as a discrete output). If you don't have enough room behind the listening position, or if you're using mismatching speakers, then adding more speakers can sound much worse than going with a properly calibrated and matched 5.1 setup.

    Rather than throwing more money into your system, the best thing to do would be to get a SPL meter and test disc, and optimize what you already have. Seems like you've already gone about adding an external amp to a receiver. IMO, that's something that you after you finalize your speaker choice. When you mention "matching" a new pair of speakers to the Rotel amp, what exactly are you looking for? In general, the speakers will have far greater variance in their tonal characteristics, and in any case, you still need to properly setup everything for it to perform at its best.

    With regard to the speakers, your ultimate goal should be a timbre matched system all the way around. If you like your CVs, then you should add the matching center speaker, get a couple of bookshelf speakers from that same series, and be done with it. Swapping out the L and R speakers means that you have to add the matching center, and at some point match the surround speakers as well. You can get away with mismatches with some movie soundtracks, but increasingly, matched surrounds are more and more essential because of how more soundtracks now get mixed.

    One last note, buying online you typically find the best prices, but the biggest discounters are also unauthorized vendors most of the time. Basically, if you buy from them, you have no assurance that you're getting a factory new unit for the U.S. market, and you invalidate the factory warranty.

    Of course, the cheapest way is to just stick with what you have and be happy with it. Like I said, if you're looking to upgrade, have a very clear understanding of what performance goals you're looking at, and whether component upgrades will help you achieve that goal. If you have not gotten around to learning how to properly calibrate and setup your system, then dumping more money into your system is a waste of time.

  11. #11
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    Actually, I don't have an amp and should edit that first post because it does seem to say I already have one. I do have the v-series (cv) already and maybe I should just finish this one with matching speakers, and then start a completely new project. Actually I was just thinking it'd be better to get the best two speakers and use them for rears. When I want to listen to music I could switch the other (5) speakers off, then I'd have an excellent home theatre + two really good hi end speakers, as rears( surround back) seem very easy to mesh (I'm using wharfedales and honestly can't tell they're any different from the cv set). Anyways, I'd have to turn around to switch music and movies. I really don't know what to do yet. Thanks for the help. I just figured it out! I'll get new fronts and a matching center, take out the cerwin centre, and use the cerwins (4 of them, v12fs) for surround or I could take the two new fronts (minus the new center) and throw them on surround backs. Now I've got to start planning for 9.1, oh geez, I just remembered about zone 2 and I could really use some background music in the other room. Now I'm seriously perplexed. Thanks for the help.
    Last edited by mr. budget; 04-21-2005 at 01:18 AM.

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