Buying new bookshelf speakers

[JoeE SP9]

Just about all powered subs have a built in low pass filter.

[Freewillisdead112]

good stuff. There Is always jbl paradigm and klipsch subs floating around CL

Are the HSU subs any good?

And are the MMG's bi-ampable??

[JoeE SP9]

good stuff. There Is always jbl paradigm and klipsch subs floating around CL

Are the HSU subs any good?

Yes. Some are very good.

And are the MMG's bi-ampable??

Yes. However, it requires enough skills to bypass or rewire the crossovers. Theoretically any thing that is not a single driver speaker can be bi-amped.

[Freewillisdead112]

Would that even make a difference? The apartment I am looking at has a huge living room with more then enough room to put them in the corners of the room. How far do they need to be from the wall to sound good?

Do they accept bare wire or do they need banana plugs? they looked kinda strange so I was confused!

[JoeE SP9]

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT place MMG's or any speaker in the corners. Placing speakers in corners messes up the bass ruins imaging and causes terminal acne. Seriously, placing speakers in corners will cause you to loose your get out of jail free card.
Most speakers sound their best 2 feet or more from side walls. Some want the wall behind them close others including all panels require 2 feet or more. With panels the side wall distance is not as critical but it's still important.

[Freewillisdead112]

Huh I've had speakers In corners many times. yet the bigger party ones dont count. I will remember that! I will two feet both ways them for sure. I shall know soon when I can get them!

[Mr Peabody]

FWID, what happened? I thought you liked the Mach's. Were your first posts a bit hasty and things not so great after the honeymoon?

If not wanting to snag the Emotiva's, the Wharfdale suggestion is good. A friend has a pair and they are pretty decent for the money. Big bass sound. I'm not sure what model he has.

[JoeE SP9]

Huh I've had speakers In corners many times. yet the bigger party ones dont count. I will remember that! I will two feet both ways them for sure. I shall know soon when I can get them!

Placing speakers in corners makes the bass bloated and "boomy". Almost any other poster will tell you the same thing. The only speakers that go in corners are Klipschorns. Klipschorns have to be placed in corners because they use the walls a part of the horn.
I'm not aware of any other speakers that work properly with corner placement. Sub woofers are not necessarily included in the no corner "thing". There are several web sites that have formula's and instruction for the best placement of speakers. Someone else will probably speak up with a couple of URL's.

[Freewillisdead112]

I dont know If It's my amp clipping or just these speakers sucking. They sounded pretty great when I bought them.....at low levels. When I was able to turn them up and play them with movies my thoughts changed. I think most of what I was saying Is me trying to justify my trade.

I went to a resturant with a whole mirage system the other day and I could'nt finish what I was doing. I was stuck In the song. And they were playing a radio station. I think It was the large nano sats (or what ever the large up firing ones are) with 2 subs In a huge room and It was just amazing. I instantly wanted to steal them!

If I don't mistake myself there quite cheap ay?

Like 250 each or a pair?

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not that familiar with Mirage. I know www.crutchfield.com carry them and allow a 30 day return, although there may be cheaper places. Depends on how much you think customer service is worth. Crutchfield excels in that area but you may sometimes pay a bit more for it.

[RGA]

Oh of course, you'd know better, right? I have use the MMGs this way over several years and can tell you it's effective. In general sub integration is not a big problem if complementary 2nd order or higher crossovers are used. Often "integration" is more problem of sub placement and/or room resonances than of integration per se.

Currently I use the MG 1.6 with a subwoofer and integration is satisfactory. In this case I use the 1.6 full-range. Their 4th order accoustic roll-off at about 45 Hz works decently will with my subs 3rd order 50 Hz low-pass.

Or perhaps some people hear the problems and other people do not - but you would never consider that. Lots of people buy Martin Logan and don't hear a lack of integration and then there are those who do like me and that problem is great enough for those speakers to be crossed off my list. Both Magnepan Dealers where I live who sell numerous quality subs (including Rel) recommend against subs for Magnepan and they sell them. My experience is the same - though granted the dealer has more experience with more subs playing around with them more - but they can't get them to work right after 5 years selling them but hey they must be wrong and so must I. Regardless - the treble and head in a vice quality is more of the issue for me. The only panels I like are the Quad 2905 and the Sound Labs - and they cost a bomb - but perhaps I am being too picky. Count yourself lucky that you get satisfactory results integrating a sub - I have heard probably a hundred sub satellite combinations over the decades and only once have I heard a sub integrate acceptably in any system (and many of these were set up by the manufacturer's engineers - so they should have been "perfect" matches better than any owner could do it) and that one system cost over $30,000 and I still wasn't wowed. Gershman Acoustics X-1 Sub1 combination was pretty good but they're built strictly for the X-1 standmount and the X-1 is a little closed and boxy sounding but integration was/is reasonably good.

But as they say different strokes for different strokes - I am not really impressed with the 1.6 treble band either and lots of folks are quite impressed with them in that region. I find them to be good value at around $2k simply because the competition boxed speakers also have a treble band that doesn't thrill me. I think the more variety of speaker that I have heard over the years has shifted my views.

Consider that in 1995 I lusted after Bryston and Martin Logan and now both of them I would avoid like the plague. The products didn't get worse - in fact they have arguably gotten better but my frame of reference shifted over that time and their advantages while real over what I owned as a stereo back then, are now not advantages and I detect moreof their foibles now. I wonder how many people who have owned a given speaker for 10-25 years have brought home other products and honestly gave them their due on a listening trial?

Ultimately the point of the whole thing is to find sonic nirvana - if you have then recommend and KEEP recommending the combination to people. Lots of people will hear it like you do and lots will hear it like I do. But try to be specific - name the sub(s) and where you cross them over and position etc. I always try and recommend an "audition" of planars and panels just to give people an education on what they sound like - it's important to hear panels.

[jrhymeammo]

FWD112,

Looks like you are getting good recommendation here.
As RGA stated, everyone builds up their "Reference" sound aka preferance.
They are not right or wrong, but if you still around here long enough, you'll get to know the type of sound/music each members prefer.

Here is my impression of Magnepan, incase you are considering the MMG or others:

My listening preference in order: (most favored to least)

Jazz
Hip Hop
Acoustic rock
Small ensemble music (strings)
Electronica
Blues
Large Scale Orchestra
Rap (radio oriented crap)
Rock 'n Roll (Typical FM 103.5 WTYN or whatever...)

Preference on Audio Gear
-Class A Valve amp
-Vinyl
-Low Output Moving Coil cartridges
-High Efficiency Speakers (suites extremely well with the valve amp I own).


I sat behind a piano in full scale orchestra for 4 years in highschool.
Also, played in concert band and marching band for 4 years. Had Scholarship to play Piano in college, but all I wanted to do was argue with the music department so I quiet studying music after 1.5 semesters.
For that, I have more experience sitting behind instruments than sitting in more acoustically favorable positions (audience seating).

I had a pair of Maggies until about a year ago with BAT VK-3i and PS Audio HCA-2. They were very good, but extremey limited to what they can play. Here are my impressions of 1.6QR on above music:

Jazz
-Dreadful

Hip Hop -
-Head Nodding turned into head wobbling. I almost felt the same emotion of old glumpy men, raising fists at cars driving by.

Acoustic rock
- Guitar sounded like $59 K-Mart special. It reminded me of a 30 yr old man still wearing Nirvana Tees who should've sold his guitar 15 years ago.

Small ensemble music (strings)
- Unbelievably good at times, but mostly just great.

Electronica
- I also became a "Firestarter" to my own pair of Maggies.


Blues
- I don't recall much of my experience.

Large Scale Orchestra
- Mixed feelings for sure. Strings were magnificient, but brass sounded very thin and bright. I've tried different resistors to tame the treble, but all it did was supress the entire treble band. Output level was less, but never changed their sound characteristics. Overall inconsistancy didn't allow me to enjoy the music.

Rap (radio oriented crap)
- No experience. I prefer to avoid this non-sense.

Rock 'n Roll (Typical FM 103.5 WTYN or whatever...)
- No experience. It doesn't excite me anymore. Prehaps 15 years ago, but I was dubbing radio onto cassette tapes, and never once cared for sound quality. I thought the bass boost on my boombox and the Walkman was the shizznit.


I think you'll be better off with conventional box speakers. Have you considered a used NHT? They can be acquired within your price range, and they should provide years of pleasure. Paradigm offer excellent bookshelves too. Most of Dealers can offer Paradigm at discounted price (up to 15%?).

Have Fun,
JRA

[Feanor]

FWD112,

Looks like you are getting good recommendation here.
As RGA stated, everyone builds up their "Reference" sound aka preferance.
They are not right or wrong, but if you still around here long enough, you'll get to know the type of sound/music each members prefer.

Here is my impression of Magnepan, incase you are considering the MMG or others:
...

I think you'll be better off with conventional box speakers. Have you considered a used NHT? They can be acquired within your price range, and they should provide years of pleasure. Paradigm offer excellent bookshelves too. Most of Dealers can offer Paradigm at discounted price (up to 15%?).

Have Fun,
JRA

Free,

JRA might have a point: depending on your listening preference, a speaker other than Mageneplanar might be a better bet for you.

Notwithstanding, what he is saying here is largely humbug. Check out some review links at the Magnepan site. A good one is THIS by Johnathan Valin regarding the MG 1.6.

(Can you take seriously a guy who listens to a full-range driver with a whizzer cone? Give me a break. )

[JoeE SP9]

JRA, maybe you spent too much time on stage.

Maggy 1.6Qr's dreadful on Jazz? Can't agree on this one.

Can't agree with acoustic rock sounding bad.

Blues of any type have always sounded good to me on Maggy's.

I can't comment on Rap or Hip Hop.
They are in the same category as most Rock and Roll is for me.
Like you, they just don't really interest me any more or any less.

[Freewillisdead112]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

[jrhymeammo]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

You, you, you, and you've found out that you loved the sound of Mirage. Anything stopping you to acquire them?
Also, all the DO and DONT.... are you yelling?
I don't understand why you are frustrated?

[JoeE SP9]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

Saying you don't play past 4 out of ten doesn't mean anything. Very efficient speakers with a 50WPC amp could drive you out of the room at that setting. Changing speakers to acoustic suspension type may give whisper level sound at the same settings.
The only way to determine loudness is to measure it with a SPL meter.
SPL: Sound pressure level
Almost any small 2-way speaker will sound good with a sub-woofer. I don't know of any decent wall mount speakers. I certainly wouldn't buy any.
A decent sub-woofer won't boom when adjusted properly. If it is adjusted right the only thing rattling will be stuff in the room that's not nailed down. A sub-woofer thats adjusted right does not sound like the rolling distortion boxes called car stereos.

[jrhymeammo]

(Can take seriously a guy who listens to a full-range driver with a whizzer cone? Give me a break. )

WHAT!!!!???
Well, I'm glad it's my system & not yours, and I'm sure that's something we can both agree on
Then again I haven't heard your exact setup... have you heard mine or anything similar? Probably ....

Com'on my man, you must've been joking or exaggerating... right?
JRA

[jrhymeammo]

JRA, maybe you spent too much time on stage.

Maggy 1.6Qr's dreadful on Jazz? Can't agree on this one.

Can't agree with acoustic rock sounding bad.

Blues of any type have always sounded good to me on Maggy's.

I can't comment on Rap or Hip Hop.
They are in the same category as most Rock and Roll is for me.
Like you, they just don't really interest me any more or any less.

Something might have been wrong in my setup, but I'm 99% confident that I just didn't like the sound of Maggies. It seemed like a good and manageable idea at the time, but
didn't work out. Well enough of this Magnepan arguement cuz I'll just get treated like a second-class citizen.

JRA

[JoeE SP9]

Nah, to get true second class treatment you have to think Bose 901's are SOTA!!!!

[RGA]

Something might have been wrong in my setup, but I'm 99% confident that I just didn't like the sound of Maggies. It seemed like a good and manageable idea at the time, but
didn't work out. Well enough of this Magnepan arguement cuz I'll just get treated like a second-class citizen.

JRA

You won't by me. Many of your observations are the same as mine. I have heard them in several locations in several set-ups. I think I like them more than you in fact but I would not buy any of them except the 1.6 which I still contend is one of the best speakers in the $2k price range - but it's got problems - all speakers have problems though and I think the 1.6 has some advantages that a lot of the competitors don't have. But the MMG is just a speaker to get people to upgrade without a comparison. It's great marketing to get people to avoid listening comparisons giving them a huge advantage.

[RGA]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

Since you're all over the map I will suggest a SAFE first entry into this audio hobby with a very good - easy to listen to - better than it has any right to be for the price - under your budget - not boomy - no nasty treble and from one of the oldest names in speaker design and currently run by Quad (one of the best names in speaker design) and that would be - The Wharfedale Diamond 9 series. Nothing flashy - nothing overly exciting - but not in the least irritating.

The Diamond speakers are front ported which will allow them to operate reasonably well in corners or wall mounted. the advice you have gotten about corner loaded speakers previously in this thread is outright fiction. http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products...lt.aspx#detail

[JoeE SP9]

Just what about corner loaded speakers is fiction?

The part about K horns requiring corner placement or the part about most speakers sounding bad in corners?

The only thing we agree on is Diamond 9's. They shouldn't be placed in corners either. The front port does make close to the wall placement OK.

[Freewillisdead112]

You, you, you, and you've found out that you loved the sound of Mirage. Anything stopping you to acquire them?
Also, all the DO and DONT.... are you yelling?
I don't understand why you are frustrated?

A little! I just want some new speakers!

[Freewillisdead112]

Since you're all over the map I will suggest a SAFE first entry into this audio hobby with a very good - easy to listen to - better than it has any right to be for the price - under your budget - not boomy - no nasty treble and from one of the oldest names in speaker design and currently run by Quad (one of the best names in speaker design) and that would be - The Wharfedale Diamond 9 series. Nothing flashy - nothing overly exciting - but not in the least irritating.

The Diamond speakers are front ported which will allow them to operate reasonably well in corners or wall mounted. the advice you have gotten about corner loaded speakers previously in this thread is outright fiction. http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products...lt.aspx#detail

Can I hear these anywhere?