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  1. #26
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accastil
    hi Florian,
    no offense meant here...while i agree with you that magnepans sound glorious while playing light and mellow music, i also would like to open your consciousness that they are not that good with bassfull, pop music.
    i myself am considering to buy a pair of magnepans soon and i plan to have them driven directly by a pro-amp with gain controls. this is to suit my light music listening while still making use of my MS set up whenever id like to listen to heavy, pop music.
    and yes, the maggies would definitely require a workhorse of an amp to bring out their potentials unlike most of the box speakers we know.
    No offense taken, the only Maggie i still own is the .5 (my first good speaker) and have moved over several Maggies (1.6's, 3.6's) to Apogees. (Scinitllas and now DIVAS). People have to understand that Maggies (planars in general) are VERY different to boxes and if they place and drive them like boxes then they will never sound good. They require a different level of dedication to make them work. Yes bass output is limited but still far deeper and cleaner then any box in a mortal price range.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  2. #27
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Planar speakers as a whole simply can not match the excursion of a dedicated cone woofer, and the panel can't realistically be placed in a reasonant box to improve their bass efficiency.

    The traditional solution has been to make the panels bigger. Unfortunately this creates two problems; 1. They become large enough that those of us with houses whose rooms are of average size have real probelms with placement and 2. Making them bigger does nothing to reduce the speakers price.

    Martin Logan has augmented the bass of many of their ESL speakers with cone woofers. Many of you know this has not always been as sucessful as might be hoped at a given price point. The latests efforts have gotten substantially better sonically but the pricing of the better models has gotten quite a bit higher.

    Adding a seperate sub-woofer to a planar is not impossible, but it also is far from either cheap or easy, if you want to do it well.

    I love planars, but I agree they are not the best choice at the price point we have been discussing. IMHO to do planar speakers well requires a large expensive planar, a well treated large room and a more powerful than usual amp, especially true for tube amplification.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    The traditional solution has been to make the panels bigger. Unfortunately this creates two problems; 1. They become large enough that those of us with houses whose rooms are of average size have real probelms with placement and 2. Making them bigger does nothing to reduce the speakers price.

    Point one is not correct if you look at the Apogee Scintilla (flat to 20Hz and much more powerfull than any commercial snaily prices subwoofer), the Apogee Duetta (25Hz), my DIVAS play to 18HZ....... so for size the Apogee Scinitlla, Duetta and Caliper are wonderfull and need no stinking cone in a box.

    Besides you know that the specs quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc... with 16 Hz extension is bogus and completely unrealistc in a normal room even with a Rel Stadium III.

    Point2, is not important to me. I care about music, and if it requires a 6.4ft tall 300lbs speaker, then so be it.

    As for price, i would much rather take a 1.6 for 1.6K that does 35Hz no problem, with NO box, whiked speed, much less colored and extension requirements and a more even surface wave.

    Again, Quality or Quantity....take your pic.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  4. #29
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Point one is not correct if you look at the Apogee Scintilla (flat to 20Hz and much more powerfull than any commercial snaily prices subwoofer), the Apogee Duetta (25Hz), my DIVAS play to 18HZ....... so for size the Apogee Scinitlla, Duetta and Caliper are wonderfull and need no stinking cone in a box.
    Does this address point one, or is it just another opportunity for you to name drop your speakers yet again? Hermanv's point was about the size necessary for a planar speaker to reproduce deep bass, and the placement problems that this incurs for typical rooms. Are you disputing this point or just twisting the topic to suit your agenda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Besides you know that the specs quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc... with 16 Hz extension is bogus and completely unrealistc in a normal room even with a Rel Stadium III.
    Show us a spec "quoted by Paradigm, Axiom, B&W etc" that claims a 16 Hz extension. I've never seen a spec like that quoted from any of those manufacturers, except for the Paradigm Servo-15 subwoofer, which is capable of extending well below 16 Hz in-room, measures within 3 db down to 19 Hz under anecholic conditions, and can sustain 110 db levels anecholically. If you're going to attack manufacturers' specs, at least be factual/truthful about what they actually say.
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
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  5. #30
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #31
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house.
    Yup, right on cue, when caught in a lie/factual error, start with the insults and diversions to cover your backside. Uh, where was that "16 Hz extension" claim that "Paradigm, Axiom, B&W, etc." are making again?
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
    Adire Audio Rava (EQ: Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124)
    Yamaha RX-A1030
    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Sony UBP-X800
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR44 and WVB
    Logitech Harmony 700
    iPhone 5s/iPad 3
    Linksys WES610



    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

  7. #32
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Sorry, dont read your replys. I told you that MONTH ago, but i am sure someday you will understand. People are already ignoring your idiotic planar and high end bashing posts. Its a good start to get more people to hunt the musical joy instead of the best buy of the week.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  8. #33
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Sorry, dont read your replys. I told you that MONTH ago, but i am sure someday you will understand. People are already ignoring your idiotic planar and high end bashing posts. Its a good start to get more people to hunt the musical joy instead of the best buy of the week.
    So, if you're not reading my replies, why are you responding to them?

    Just a convenient excuse when you have nothing to offer up that affirms your assertion that "Paradigm, Axiom, B&W, etc." are claiming "16 Hz extension."
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
    Adire Audio Rava (EQ: Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124)
    Yamaha RX-A1030
    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Sony UBP-X800
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR44 and WVB
    Logitech Harmony 700
    iPhone 5s/iPad 3
    Linksys WES610



    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

  9. #34
    Forum Regular PAT.P's Avatar
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    Another thread on its way to the steel cage thanks to Flo,what else is new.Must be the PMS time of the month?

  10. #35
    Forum Regular PAT.P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Oh no, the fact-less, unexperiences, planar basher is in the house.
    Did'nt we add section for "Planar" Flo just to keep you satisfy?

  11. #36
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by igrek
    OK, I just got back from The Audible Difference, where I listened to Magnepans 1.6 and some floorstanding speaker from Revel (I've never heard about them before and I don't know the model, but the price was around $1400 for pair). I also listened to B&W 704 a couple of days ago. That's about all my high-end listening experience.

    Yes, I must confess that I'm a very uneducated listener. Well, I've been playing piano for 30 years and guitar for many years, too. So, I believe I'm not hopeless and have good ears. But still, my audio listening experience was mostly conditioned by unnaturally enhanced cheap audio systems, or car audio that didn't give the true sound, but sounded "nice".

    What I've just found - the high-end audio sounds different

    So far, I haven't heard a system that made me say "wow".
    I expected a lot from B&W 704, but was not that impressed. Maybe, I expected too much.

    Now, the Magnepans today... Yes, they give very different kind of sound, and (after 40 minutes of listening) I can't yet decide if I like it or not. Yes, the sound is very clear and open, but I'd like more bass and more drive (I'm not sure if I use the right terms, but I use drive in the same sense as in "rock concert dirve"). But they give beautiful impression that the musicians are in the room (is it called imaging?). Actually, I tried to move from spot to spot in the room and couldn't say that I saw a well defined sweet spot. The "image" was changing a little from point to point, but it was reasonably good everywhere in the room. Maybe, I just don't hear it yet - need more practice.

    Then I compared the same CDs in the same room with Revels. They delivered more bass and fuller sound, but the quality (especially mid frequencies) were not up to the Magnepan. I couldn't hear that many nuances, especially in human voices and acoustic guitar. Also, I could hear very well that music is coming right from the speakers, while with Magnepans the music was everywhere in the room.

    Oh, one more discovery I made: not all CDs are equal These speakers, especially Magnepans, showed all the defects and shortcomings of some records. I could clearly hear that the frequency range for some pop music was compressed; acoustic guitars for some live records were recorded slightly distorted, etc. Also, it's cool to find some sounds that I've never heard before: sounds of fingers on frets, fingers touching hand drums, etc. Very interesting.

    So, I have to check the other systems now to make my mind about Magnepans.

    Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it!

    You don't need to be some self proclaimed golden ear to make the assessments you made. I have ehard the Magnepan and 704 but not the Revels but your assessment is failrly close to mine. There is an openness and clarity (soundstage and imaging) which makes in this price range the Magnepan a very solid consideration -- but it also lacks drive and has IMO a seriously curtailed bass ability at higher levels. Their claimed bass repsonse of 40hz -3db is probably true -- my Floorstanding Wharfedale's claim the same bass depth - but listen to the two and perceptually the Wharfedales really drive the bass home while the Maggies seems light in the loafers. They simply do not move enough air to be taken seriously. BUT, they also do some of thise other things extremely well - far better than the B&W's that make the 1.6 real hard to say no too.

    It's a trade-off and you will always make a trade-off. So I would make the trade-off for the music you are going to listen to.

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